ingsoc - the whole 'resistor' portion of the thread was about neilgj's question (#506) about how the EXHAUST would affect the engine's ability to ingest air. An intake could be 100% larger than stock but not allow more air into the engine if the intake is not the constraining factor.

 

many props go out on my end!!

 

Andy ur funny, man! give it up dude, that post still does not sound like what i typed in fact U changed it again.....i dont even use AINT as a word anywhere on this post u changed it around again but its kool i know its a loose loose situation dealin' w/u so peace out.................that statement i made about "deee old guy's catching this" was not negative like u have it show, i was refering to that i hope dee old guy's did notice it so we could have a discussion about it but again u got a hold of it and destroyed it...

Andy ur much smarter than i am when it comes to stuff like this( graph's diagrams, ect,) but im not a fool so dont make it out to look like this

 

Sorry, but I do not natively speak your language. Again, I wasn't copying your post. I was using your language to try to express a completely different thought than what you exprsssed. I'm not sure what you think I destroyed. All I could do was try.

I added the "ain't" myself, it wasn't one of the words you used. I didn't use the "deee old guy's catching this" in a negative way. Rather, I used that to describe myself. I'm one of "deee old guy's catching this".

Lesson learned, I should just stick to speaking English.

 

Yes - they're off on a tangent - but, as usual, it is an interesting, exciting, emotional, melodramatic and educational one.

 

The same applies to engines. If you replace a component (like the supercharger inlet pipe) with a larger one, that doesn't necessarily mean that overall flow will improve. The only way to determine whether it has improved is through testing of the complete system, before and after that change.__________________

I totally agree with this statement. The AGS may or may not be better on any given engine. Since venturi was brought up, I was flamed for asking about wind tunnel testing for aero parts. More flow does not necessarily mean more power out of the engine. Finding the resonant sweet spot of flow is the trick. I'll go back to audio...if you port a speaker too low and outside the possible bandwidth you get mushy sound......I am not going to write a text book here but think of the wrong size gear but made beautifully.....it still wont work well in the system if it is the wrong size....wrong flow etc.

 

Andy, I have actually installed the AGS myself. I know what it looks like AND how it works. This withstanding, I was speaking solely of the tube, since you were speaking about: tubes... My point stands. Resistance is reduced by the tube. The thing is, we all have to remember one important thing about intakes, that the air filter _will_ get dirty in normal use. If area was such a problem, you surely would notice that every week or so [in many climates] you would lose significant power. Everyone who dynoed with a similar intake would get different data, markedly different data. This just isn't the case. The loss, while there, is far less than as significant as you suspect; results for intakes with multiple runs are most often within 1 or 2 hp. You dig?

 

Slightly O/T

I heard somewhere that Hubie of SPI had a pre-production AGS tube on one of his Twincharged cars. If this is accurate I think its quite interesting & telling.

Because a T/C car pressurizes intake air before it reaches the supercharger (via turbo) the AGS may significantly improve performance of the T/C application.

While the AGS does indeed appear to benefit performance on a relatively stock MCS I find it difficult to imagine the (fixed-displacement) supercharger being able to gulp in THAT much more air, simply on account of a more direct & slippery intake tube. I suspect this is why M7 designed the 'heat shield' to try and function as a ram-air scoop… to try and create positive pressure in front of the throttle body.

I do not dispute that the AGS tube flows better. I pretty much accept this as fact. I just question how much pumping advantage if offers the supercharger on its own & in specific context of the MINI S/C & engine's flow capabilities.

What would be interesting is to see a log recording intake pressures - at the throat of the throttle body or just in front of the supercharger inlet - at various RPM.

Lastly, I'll chime in re: Andy's thoughts on the AGS filter being a possible bottleneck. Filter size and media (cotton vs. foam) is likely what's limiting the AGS's top end performance.

 

What's even more telling than that (if the above is true), is that Hubie's car runs with the stock Throttle Body. Yes, you heard right, he's getting over 400 hp thru the stock throttle body. It's interesting to me to see that people upgrade to larger bore throttle bodies, when clearly you can run over 400hp thru the engine with the stock one. Add that into the equations of resistance and limitations LOL

 

Hang on a second... Hubie's got a big ol' velocity stack on top of his intake. If anything this suggests in principle that throttle body designs with varied I/D's (like those sold by Webb MS) are more than hype.

EDIT: Hubie does have the benefit of possitive pressure ala the turbo. He don't need no stinking larger T/B bore to make power The restriction in his case wouldn't be the stock I/D bore, but what came before it & after.

 

since the twin chargers' put a positive pressure in the s/c intake, the stock joint and the AGS/silicone joint "ain't" (for you, andy) up to it. Hubie built his own tube to take the pressure and modded the joint, but the joint is still the weak link.

also:
re: "The hood open only helps give the other types a bit of an advantage as others brought out, thanks for mentioning it . Ours functions with the ram like effect of the air being forced thru the front of the grill."
Aren't all the intakes affected by whether the hood is open or closed? I don't see any "ram like effect" in any of them...
Alta draws air from the cowl and the snoot, not underhood, unless the hood is open;
Pilo draws air from the snoot, not underhood unless the hood is open, and maybe the cowl;
AGS draws air form the snoot and underhood.

 

I doubt you installed anything based on the post below and the fact you had no idea where the cylinder head or the fuel injectors sat in the car. Please stop embarrassing yourself. You are outclassed in these arguments.

[font=Arial]Hey guys. A little update is in order. I received all of my M7 parts in the mail, as promised, for install this weekend :D. Peter was quite awesome to deal with, and he has taken many of my phone calls over the past few weeks. Great guy.[/font]
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[font=Arial][size=2][font=Arial]It's all here [well, cept my oil catch can and springs, they're back ordered]! 8). All of the stuff looks awesome. The supercharger is coated, ported, full of love! The AGS is now RTVed [that was simple but fun]! It needs to sit for 24 hrs. I'm going to be opening the head and intake manifold tomorrow when it's time for install, but they're packed gorgeously. All of the stuff arrived really well packed, with not one issue.[/font][/size][/font]

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[font=Arial][size=2][font=Arial]I now have: injectors, plugs, intake manifold, AGS, throttle body, head, pulley, lots of pipes/tubes/connectors, Schrick cam, and supercharger! It all looks so beautiful. Anyways, my good autocrossing buddy Luis is opening the first and only MINI tuning shop called Performance Autowerks in Miami [land of mucho MINIs!!], and he's gonna be doing my install this weekend even though his shop is not usually open. He's a GREAT mechanic, and I'm very happy to say my car is the first one getting engine work in his new shop :D. I even get to watch/help out with the install, which is mondo cool![/font][/size][/font]

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[font=Arial][size=2][font=Arial]I'm waiting on the software from Franz [apparently he's on vacation...], but it should be going on Monday. Peter says it'll run fine, just a bit rich but still ok. I'll take it pretty easy.[/font][/size][/font]

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[font=Arial][size=2][font=Arial]Ingsoc[/font][/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2][font=Arial], signing off![/quote][/font][/size][/font]

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[font=Arial][size=2][font=Arial]Link to this post is here[/font][/size][/font]

[font=Arial][size=2][font=Arial]http://www.teammightyminiz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2207&postdays=0&postorder=asc&high light=cosworth&start=45[/font][/size][/font]

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You're still missing the point. Resistance may be reduced within the tube, IF you are measuring only the AGS tube compared to the stock tube. That's like measuring the resistance within only the 1 in. hose in my example above. The 1" hose definitely flows better than the 1/2" hose. That doesn't mean that the 1/2">1">1/2" hose flows better than the 1/2">1/2">1/2" does it?

That does not tell what the OVERALL resistance will be. The AGS may very well flow worse, even without a filter. I don't know and neither does anyone, except presumably (hopefully) the designers of the AGS. Actual pressure drop between the supercharger inlet and ambient would be telling.

BTW, if in your belief the relatively tiny filter area of the AGS isn't the problem ... and if the AGS tube isn't the problem ... what is your explanation for why the AGS underperformed in this test?

As far as pressure drop across filters, I have actually measured it. Yes, filters flow less as they become clogged. Do you lose several horsepower every week? Of course not, unless you live in a dust bowl.

 

A long long time ago I remember reading a post by sfjames, about porting and polishing the stock intake runner tube. I tried this. With great success.

I bought a intake runner tube from Classic mini, dremeled it the best i could at both ends (throttle body end and supercharger end) and down the neck as far as I could get it. I then wet sanded it. Put it in, my car felt like it pulled harder and got fast faster than before, though I have no dyno to prove it.

A few months ago, I bought an AGS, installed it, drove aroudn the block 3 times and developed a vaccume leak. So I removed the AGS, I took it all apart and went back to the ported stock intake runner tube. I cant say that the AGS (before the vacume leak developed) accelerated any faster than my ported stock intake runner. But it WAS louder. I do not have any numbers to prove or disprove either, just with my experience, my MCS (which i think i got a quick one, as in i can hang with my neighbors JCW MCS no problem) and my driving skills (or lack thereof?).

We are all missing the point, its all about having fun, in my case having fun as cheaply and efficiently as possible.

Also, M7 was kind enough to give me store credit for my return of the AGS, even though I had to use my "macgyer"-skills and butcher the AGS to get my car back to stock form.

One more note, right now I have a Dinan intake (I sold the Alta, in anticipation for the AGS ) Dinan is a bit more suttle, however I know HP is down a bit, but my girlfriend doesnt have to say "Whats the whining sound?!" whenever I punch it.

Wow, maybe I have said too much!

 

basically about two years before the AGS came out Hubie developed something that was a very large tube to replace the current one....the thing is that he is FORCING air through it...and it therefore make a much larger difference than sucking air through it....

he had posted pictures of it a while back but I couldn't find the thread

 

Hey, this is fun!
There's the fun I have driving... going through the twisties... or listening to my intake & exhaust note (instead of the stereo).

Then there's the kind of fun I have reading this forum, possibly learning (or not ) and watching others dyno & dissect the performance of various air intake systems. Its all fun

 

.

"Aren't all the intakes affected by whether the hood is open or closed? I don't see any "ram like effect" in any of them..."

exactly

The AGS draws its air from a much enlarged snoot opening. Or it should but this was not done on the test vehical which was our fault for not updating the test team on that mod. See enclosed photo

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

That's exactly the point I was trying to make... Without forcing air into the throttle body/supercharger (positive pressure) the AGS tube only affords the S/C a less restrictive intake path. Does this on it's own allow the S/C to suck in a denser intake 'charge'? I think not. There must be other measures to increase intake pressure/velocity & take advantage of the potential for greater CFM.

The AGS tube may (when used with an induction tube & better filter) prove measurably better than an Alta. But with the data we currently have it's only a theory.

 

One last thought regarding the size of the filter . We did not find this filter at Pep Boys.The company that created and makes them for us is S & B one of the larger filter manufactureres in the world.Everything they do is to ISO 5011 std and sold all over the world. They make filters for Madness, Rogue , K & N etc. They did not get that big by making filters that were not up to the job. We told them the space available, they calculated the needs of a 1.6 motor and max RPM added a saftey factor and came up with the square inches needed to work. Then they EXCEEDED this figure and came up with the design for the AGS. Please, the filter is MORE than adaquate. Forget about it, drop it, move along there is nothing to see here
BTW I mentioned to them how some have tried to compare the capacity of the filter by measuring the dimmensions of the filters in question. The got a good chuckle out of that and suggested that they keep their day job. Individual rib design, thickness , depth and frequency are what determine the capacity of a filter not the size of the element itself.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

D00d, you don't get it, do you? I participated firsthand in an install of the AGS. With my friend. There's no class involved. We installed a full Cosworth kit. I know the way around my car now quite well. I know where everything is. It was a fun education. You should try it. Then maybe you would have a perma grin like myself and love the world and people around you, not hate it.

The facts are what they are. The AGS tube is not a bottleneck, by resistance anyways. The filter is a resistance, _just as any other filter is a point resistance_. What are the absolute resistances? No one knows. IF you care so much, test it. Remember though, resistance in a tube is directly proportional to the diameter of the tube times the LENGTH. The track from filter to SC is more than twice as long with the Alta. The entire filter to SC track is therefore capable of _more than_ 20% greater flow in the AGS than in its competition. If you were familiar with the _numerical_ actual physics, then that is awesome. Otherwise, you're 'outclassed,' although to be honest I'm a pretty humble guy and I despise when people are arrogant enough to say things like that. I would never claim that of anyone. You clearly are not very humble.

What is my theory? Thanks for asking, Andy. I believe that the AGS a) did virtually as well as the ALTA since they reached the same speed in the same length of time and b) would have done EVEN better if it had more air around it [ie, was in a moving car]. The AGS sees ACTIVE ram air on the road. The others passively 'suck' air in.

And, for the record, I think I am right. If someone else thinks otherwise, you can certainly and will express that. This is what debate is for. But for the love of God, please all refrain from personal attacks. This is about theory. Thank you.

 

Now what was I saying....? Oh yes, this very thing. I stand taller.

 

OK Randy, Point made. ...And I REALLY don't want to go over trodden ground here, but if numbers from the mnfr. were provided this would all be moot.

With that out of the way...
The community here was left to it's own devices to test your companies intake. Had the testers been provided official or recommended test protocols some of the concerns re: proper testing might have been alleviated. In the end there was no dyno in a wind tunnel, so we have to be happy with the results.

As things stand I believe your product faired quite well vs. the others - this despite your expressed concerns as to proper air-flow/source & various intake function. I would think that the strength of the AGS numbers under this non-ideal circumstance would make M7 proud. Furthermore if indeed air source and pressure really are critical to AGS' proper function your customers should see even greater power gains. The glass is quite a bit more than half full.

There have been positive associations with all tested products… Lots of data collected & thoughts exchanged. This is GREAT free marketing (not that this was the intent - it is just inevitable). Nonetheless…

Irrespective of the absolute numbers I think every participant in this thread and the 3 vendors has benefited from this test. The testers who gave up their $ and time should be thanked for their efforts.

 

If you don't believe that filter surface area is the reason, what is your explanation for why the AGS underperformed in this test compared to the Alta?

 

I still am not convinced the AGS has any more "ram air effect" than the others, with or without the hood open, with or without the enlarged opening at the radiator.

re. the AGS, doesn't any air coming in the snoot/modded-snoot go into the general underhood volume and is partaken of by the AGS and that is it's only air source? And with the others, doesn't any air coming in the snoot get exclusively directed to the air filter, augmented by whatever gets in through the cowl?

 

Simple Andy: it was choked of air at the top end when it is breathing the hardest. It would otherwise have kept in stride or higher. The AGS was, unlike the others, located in a small corner of the engine compartment where air normally is in abundance at speed, but where air couldn't get with the fan provided. The other two intakes had their tops open to the surrouding environment and therefore directly benefit from an essentially infinite air supply- this planet of ours.

Maybe the fan blew cooler air more efficiently over the inlet to the conventional location than to the AGS location. The AGS still did quite well, and I've yet to see most of you realize this. To tie while under suboptimal conditions is pretty freaking nice.