Head Work - Page 4 - North American Motoring

Drivetrain (Cooper S) MINI Cooper S (R53) intakes, exhausts, pulleys, headers, throttle bodies, and any other modifications to the Cooper S drivetrain.
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  #76  
Old Yesterday, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Revolution Motor Works View Post
maybe you should just quit trying to evade the real test
head to head concepts on the same car..........what could you possibly be scared of?
It is unfortunate when a vendor is the troll here. At this point why would I want to give any of my money to the troll?




 
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  #77  
Old Yesterday, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ThumpR52 View Post
It is unfortunate when a vendor is the troll here. At this point why would I want to give any of my money to the troll?
I didn't realize providing real facts to the people who visit this site is trolling.
I guess that's all there is when people have to actually put up or shut up. Most call that shilling
 
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  #78  
Old Yesterday, 11:49 AM
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In case somebody is just looking at this thread from the end and not the beginning, Revolution Motor Works does not make a head the way I want it.
 

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  #79  
Old Yesterday, 11:58 AM
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Yep a troll.

Oh, and I will be posting on each of the 10 Myths

Myth #1. CNC is “better”
Myth #2. Dimple Ports
Myth #3. Mirror Polishing
Myth #4. Bigger is Better
Myth #5. Because It’s Ported, It’s Good For My Application
Myth #6. Flow Testing
Myth #7. The Gasket Match
Myth #8. Valve Jobs
Myth #9. Big Valves
Myth #10. Port Shape
 
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  #80  
Old Yesterday, 12:00 PM
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Currently I am putting together a post on snap gauges and velocity probes. It was during preparation for that post that I came across the 10 Myths article.
 

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  #81  
Old Yesterday, 12:35 PM
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Another good article with the same guy as above, Dave Localio, on heads. Its like I already said, I am not telling you what you should do, but rather telling you what I chose to do and why.

https://frontstreet.media/2018/08/17...-dave-localio/
 
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  #82  
Old Yesterday, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ThumpR52 View Post
In case somebody is just looking at this thread from the end and not the beginning, Revolution Motor Works does not make a head the way I want it.
correct, we don't make heads that make 10-20whp max
 
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  #83  
Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Revolution Motor Works View Post
correct, we don't make heads that make 10-20whp max
I don't know if anyone is still paying attention to this thread but I just got back from having Jan tune my TPR2 head and RMW street cam and he was able to get 242 whp and 203 lbs/tq at 6800 RPM, not bad considering I have shitty fuel injectors in there right now.I'm sorry to say i don't have the dyno sheet. This is from a NAM thread, post # 52. There is a dyno for a Thumper TPR1 in post # 34 of the same thread that reflects a 20 whp gain. The TRP2 has larger valves then the TPR1. https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-is-wow-3.html

Then there is the thread where the TPR2 was compared to the RMW head that has bigger valves than the TRP2. There is a dyno in Post # 7 that shows the TPR2 with better numbers than the RMW head up to the 6,000 RPM area That is the portion of the rev curve I am more concerned with. Yes with the bigger valves of the RMW it has the better numbers at the top end BUT remember that ThumperHeads makes the TPR2-R that has the same size valves as the Stage 1 RMW. https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...head-blog.html
 

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  #84  
Old Yesterday, 06:40 PM
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The "thumbnail" in the second thread above is more readable than the larger "overlay". The TPR2 had around 209 lbs of torque and 273 BHP. Considering the Stock S is around the 160 BHP, those are some very good numbers for a "by hand" head.


This is the overlay that has made the curves more noticeable.



 

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  #85  
Old Today, 07:37 AM
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Pretty sure a mod could close this thread.. its a pointless collection of rambling by the real troll.. the OP. Either that or change the thread title to "utter $hite" because you created a special something of nothing here.
 
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  #86  
Old Today, 08:14 AM
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I have received enough PMs, "thanks" and several posts here that reflect the majority of members like this thread. Then there are the views that are approaching 2,000 that any forum likes to have.
 

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  #87  
Old Today, 08:18 AM
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Tools of the Trade

We have been shaping metals for thousands of years. Some 8,000 years ago humans started using gold as jewelry. The use of Copper for both jewelry and tools can be traced back 6,200 years with Iron being smelted around 3,500 years ago. Aluminum came much later as Sir Humphrey Davy was credited with the discovery of “alumina" in 1807. A few years earlier another Englishmen named Henry Maudslay is credited with the creation of the first metal lathe.


The above picture is from the Wikipedia Page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Maudslay

For automobiles aluminum was first used in 1899 for the body and in 1901 Karl Benz, yes the Benz in Mercedes, crafted aluminum engine parts. In 1961 General Motors made a 215 cubic inch all aluminum engine, head and block, that they used in Buicks, Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs.



There is an article on this 215 ci all aluminum engine here https://jalopnik.com/5188889/engine-...5-aka-rover-v8

Our Gen1 MINIs have a Tritec engine that has a cast iron block and an aluminum head. The Tritec was a joint development of Chrysler that was then owned by Mercedes Benz, and Rover that was owned by BMW. A Chrysler Engineer involved with the development is a member here and has several posts on the matter. https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ec-engine.html

Relative to the aluminum head of our Gen1 engines there has been a long running debate, that spilled over into this thread, on the pros and cons of CNC vs hand porting. There are those staunch believers that only a CNC machined head is appropriate. Then others have no issues with using a head made the old fashioned way, by hand with machinist tools and hopefully by an artisan that takes pride in their work. For those such a Mike Schultz that owns ThumperHeads, and Dave Localio of Headgames (noted previously above) their love for powerful engines has benefits for those of us that have the love but not the skills. Here is short video on Dave and his Headgames shop. When Dave is working on the head, you will note that the blue/green liquid that is used in the second port grinding video in my Post # 54 has been applied.


In this video you are able to see some of the tools used in hand porting a head and then installing valves. That was Dave with the hand grinder working. Some other tools used in this procedure are:

Micrometers - There are three basic types of micrometers; Inside, Outside and Depth.



Yes of course there are LED units as well



A different style of inside micrometer



Calipers - As with micrometers there are also three types of calipers; Vernier (named after Pierre Vernier), Dial and Digital.

Vernier



Dial




Digital


Snap Gauge - there are various types of gauges that are called "snap" type but the manner in that they measure are different.

Adjustable Snap Gauge



Telescoping Snap Gauge



Ball Gauge - this gauge uses a round type of ball that is mounted to a center post.



Here is a good video on how both both ball gauges and telescoping snap gauge are used.


Radius Gauge - similar to a feeler gauges, radius gauges are housed in a jack knife type jacket.



Velocity Probes - There are two basic types of probes for engines, intake and exhaust. An air stream is pushed through a tube and then back pressures are measured. Like the snap gauges, there is learning curve involved to understand what the readings are and where you take them.




 

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  #88  
Old Today, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by cornjuice View Post
Pretty sure a mod could close this thread.. its a pointless collection of rambling by the real troll.. the OP. Either that or change the thread title to "utter $hite" because you created a special something of nothing here.
All I wanted to do was to make some posts on what I am doing with my car. Did not want this thread to become a Troll/Fanboy thing but this is a Car Forum and what some consider Heaven, others consider Hell. Can I assume that you are a Jan Fanboy and therefore anything that is not 100% for RWM is not worthy to read about?

RMW is getting exposure from this thread, the question that only Jan can determine is whether that exposure is good or his bashing nature will be bad for his business.
 
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  #89  
Old Today, 08:44 AM
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  #90  
Old Today, 09:42 AM
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I am very happy with my TPR2R head I have had for the past 2 1/2 years. It Puts a big smile on my face every time I push onto the Interstate. I have been watching this thread and ThumpR52 is holding his own pretty good. Lots of good information , some stuff that I never knew and other stuff that I would never even think about. Appears that since some cannot win the Debate/Shut others up, they want the thread closed. IMHO leave it open and see what else we can learn and where it goes.

JrTr
 
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  #91  
Old Today, 09:47 AM
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I am a big fan of old school. In my previous life I got to see what is coming out of college these days and found that there is a great lack of understanding of what the number coming out of a black box computer program really mean in the real world. Or whether they are even correct or not. There is little hands-on training going on, whether it is physically machining something or crunching first principle engineering equations for stress, fluid flow or heat transfer. This background is needed to be understood before jumping into CNC, FEA or CFDs.

There is a certain charm in hearing about the old school methods that are being discussed here. Hopefully this helps someone, young and just starting into this sort of thing, to understand what they are getting into.

Another thing I have learned is there are generally few absolutes in the real world. Sure there are the laws of physics to deal with, speed of light and that sort of thing that are absolutes. But the rest of the world is shades of gray. To say that CNC is the only (as an absolute) way to go to machine something or that a boosted engine requires (again as an absolute) larger porting ignores the gray parts of each of these statements. These gray areas all start with “what do you want to achieve”. F1 made some fantastic engines in the ‘60s and ‘70s, all without today’s computer aids. Then, again, computers have lead to some fantastic engines in today’s age. Sure, a head can be hand ported with a good success and, sure, a boosted engine will perform with good success, without huge ports. Can these be done better? First, what is meant by “better”? Is CNC and larger ports the absolute best way to achieve the absolute the best result for each of these? Maybe (there’s that shade of gray). Define “better” or “best” before jumping to an answer here. And, know what you want to achieve and how far you want to go to achieve that result.

It will be interesting to see/hear what the OP achieves at the end of this project, based on his objective of what he wants to achieve.
 
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  #92  
Old Today, 11:51 AM
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Here is an actual thumper head that was tuned in Canada

Here is a thumper head that was tuned in Canada. Fuel 91 octane Upgraded Injectors (not sure of size) I will find out from the customer if necessary Lightweight harmonic balancer port and polished head with high lift valves (thumper performance) maximum rpm 7200 High lift cam (250) Upgraded Air box and filter High flow exhaust system (header back)
 
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  #93  
Old Today, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddie07S View Post



It will be interesting to see/hear what the OP achieves at the end of this project, based on his objective of what he wants to achieve.
I am following this thread for the same reason. Jan's (RMW) products have proven themselves to be of the highest quality...just by their endurance in full blown race cars. For the street, his products are still high quality, but there are alternatives. ThumpR52, you have put a whole lot of time and research into this topic and you are to be commended for your efforts. But, as you have said repeatedly, you are building a head for YOUR engine. I assume that the level of work and quality and price will be the BEST head for you. It would be great if everyone would quit calling names and comparing apples to oranges.
 
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  #94  
Old Today, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Goldsmithy View Post
I am following this thread for the same reason. Jan's (RMW) products have proven themselves to be of the highest quality...just by their endurance in full blown race cars. For the street, his products are still high quality, but there are alternatives. ThumpR52, you have put a whole lot of time and research into this topic and you are to be commended for your efforts. But, as you have said repeatedly, you are building a head for YOUR engine. I assume that the level of work and quality and price will be the BEST head for you. It would be great if everyone would quit calling names and comparing apples to oranges.
My God, some logic relative to a consumer saying that it OK to him that the product he decided to purchase was not the same as what another vendor is trying to push. Of course logic and sanity do not go hand in hand with a Car Forum.

As far as the name calling, I am consumer being bashed by a vendor for apparently doing nothing more than choosing to go with a product he does not sell. When I started this thread my intent was to have that vendor tune my car after the ThumperHeads TRP2 was installed. Of course now he will most likely say he would not want to, but based upon the vitrolic and snide comments that were made it will be a cold day in Hell before I would ever let him touch my car or spend one penny for any of his products.
 

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Old Today, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Revolution Motor Works View Post
Here is an actual thumper head that was tuned in Canada

Here is a thumper head that was tuned in Canada. Fuel 91 octane Upgraded Injectors (not sure of size) I will find out from the customer if necessary Lightweight harmonic balancer port and polished head with high lift valves (thumper performance) maximum rpm 7200 High lift cam (250) Upgraded Air box and filter High flow exhaust system (header back)
Does this mean the dyno posts referenced and shown in earlier posts are fictitious?

I find it quite odd that a Canadian Dyno would reference the temperature in Fahrenheit and not Celsius while at the same time expressing barometric pressure in "inches of mercury" a not in hPa.
 

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  #96  
Old Today, 03:20 PM
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I am not a betting man but I do believe very firmly that there are those out there that think a "caliper" is associated with a car brake system and what they think is a "micrometer" is actually a "caliper"
 
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