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Not sure why people are getting defensive in here. OP is bringing good information to the table and has started a good conversation that potentially affects a lot of us.
Im very curious to see how this plays out. I was an early BT customer, when you had to ship out your ECU to them, and had great experiences thus far but being misled about the plugs I bought being one step colder when they clearly are not is bothersome.
Vette - I knew that’s you how you were getting all those new parts
Wow. One guy on the internet who misinterprets some data sheet and everyone starts flopping around like fish out of water. Has anyone bothered to simply measure their 8C8S plugs against the 8B8S OEM plugs and find out for yourself what the truth may be? Was this class not taught in school? We are not huge Trump supporters but dang, this definitely qualifies as FAKE NEWS! Question 1: Is the 8C8S colder plug going to hit my piston? No! FAKE NEWS!
Question 2: Is extra 2mm thread is going to collect carbon and cause detonation? No! FAKE NEWS!
Exhibit 1: OEM Plug vs Colder 8C8S NGK
See where the extra 2mm went?
Overall Length of NGK/OEM 8B8S: 84.62mm (stock gap)
84.62mm OAL BMW OEM 8B8S
Overall Length of NGK "Colder" 8C8S plug: 84.52mm (stock gap)
One might ask: But where did the extra 2mm go? According to the internet expert, the data sheet clearly stated the 8C8S plug is 2mm longer
To those who do their due diligence, one quick call to NGK tech support would have cleared all this up: According to Murphy (NGK Tech Support), factory B48 plugs 94201 have a 26.5mm reach; I8 95248 have 28.5mm reach. There's a 2 mm difference, that does not mean it protrude into the cylinder head 2mm. The reach is measure at the base above the crush washer to the shell. The shell is the non threaded portion that covers the porcelain. The I8 reach is 2mm taller, covering more of the porcelain, which helps dissipate more heat. This could be a colder plugs, depending on the application it is used on.
While both 8B8S and 8C8S are within the 8-heat range, one is at the colder end of the spectrum; the other at the warmer end of the 8 heat spectrum. Care to guess which plug falls into which?
As a non-engineer, anyone with car knowledge could easily tell by simply looking at the two plugs side by side (which many of failed or didn't even try to look): notice how the 'white' portion of the plug sticks out further than the other?
Another example: These are MINI R56 plugs. Can you tell which one is the "colder" of the two? Guess which one is the colder R56 plug?
Bottom line: Don't believe everything you read. Just b/c someone presented 'facts' does not mean he/she can't misinterpreted the info to cause false alarm!! Be your own expert and do your own research... Open your eyes and do some simple fact checking, yeah?
==========================================
Now that we have gotten the fake news out of the way, let's try to educate folks about the B-series engines from BMW and why the i8 spark plugs chosen for our applications.
i8 engine: B38K15TO (top engine) power level
Overall power (with electric motor) 274Kw/368bhp Overall torque (with electric motor) 619Nm/457ft-lbs
Power from 3-cylinder engine (with high boost pressure 1.5 bar) 171Kw/231bhp Torque from 3-cylinder engine (with high boost pressure 1.5 bar) 320Nm/236ft/lbs
When researching for a colder plug for the B38M0/B46M0/B48M0/B48O0, there was nothing available. So we contacted our BMW engineer friend in Germany, and he suggested the use of BMW I12 i8 engine spark plugs. We also contacted NGK, and they also suggested it would be a good replacement for a colder plug, but could not sell directly to us, we would have to purchase through BMW. We also contacted vendors that we do business with about this plug, and it was all agreed upon this would be a great option.
We order a set, installed them in our 2015 F56 JCW for initial testing. Since we are currently working on a BMW UDS protocol datalogging, with extended diagnostic request via security seed&key access, we can see the ECU's trip recorder data in NVRAM and EEPROM (saved logs in DFLASH) we were able to really look at Spark Burn Rate parameters, Knock voltage window for each individual cylinders, Knock values, Knock frequency and voltage for both knock sensors ( yes the B-series 4 cylinder engine has two knock sensors).
We tested for 3 weeks on the dyno at various loads, gears, and boost pressure settings to log the various parameters and conditions for these spark plugs. With the stock plugs, they did great for the most part. But always had a few knock events between 4300 - 5500 rpm. With the i8 plugs, it was eliminated. So from our testing and extensive BMW protocol data log retrieval. We could make a wise decision of the use of these plugs.
PS. Below is a pic of the spec sheet of the i8 engine versus the regular 3-cylinder engine.
We have a lot more factual data from our own testing, but we won't bore you with technicalities...
Im very curious to see how this plays out. I was an early BT customer, when you had to ship out your ECU to them, and had great experiences thus far but being misled about the plugs I bought being one step colder when they clearly are not is bothersome.
You're a car guy and you couldn't tell the colder characteristics of the 8C8S plug?
This post has been up for 4 days and none of you who have both the 8B8S and the 8C8S plugs bother to check and verify? You simply took one guy's 'findings' as the gospel and all got "disappointed" over it? wow... This is not exactly rocket science, you know... lol
you and a couple other tuners (not sure who followed who) ventured out of the box without the basic understanding to reference a data sheet that is publicly available.
the facts:
you advertised and mislead customers into thinking they had a 1 colder heat range plug compared to OEM. The lack of basic ICE knowledge by recommending and selling 2mm longer plugs put your customer engines at risk.
2mm longer is going to do a few things.
1. Change the position of the the ignition. Ideally ignition is omidirectional. On older engines wouldn't matter much because tumble and swirl were not really understood. In short a 1962 hemi does not really care. It also gets 14mpg and 20% of the fuel in the chamber did not actually burn. On a newer engine the quench zone is so finely tuned (which includes spark plug position) you will get shitty ignition. Essentially lighting the fire on the floor vs. the middle of the atomized mixture. Causing a slow burn rate. So slow in fact it could be classified as detonation. Position is critical in new engines especially DI engines.
2. Your plug may get dangerously close or even hit the Piston. We know this plug does not hit the piston but it's for sure extremely close. The quench zones are very tight and anything moved 2mm inside an engine from it's OEM spec scares the **** out of me.
3. It will run hotter because the plug is protruding into the combustion chamber more. Not just the electrode. This along with closer proximity to the hot piston surface could cause a hot spot on the plug to form and likely cause detonation.
This post has been up for 4 days and none of you who have both the 8B8S and the 8C8S plugs bother to check and verify? You simply took one guy's 'findings' as the gospel and all got "disappointed" over it? wow... This is not exactly rocket science, you know... lol
Nope. I didn't bother to pull a plug to check. One reason is I knew you were on top of it and the other reason is I only have full use of one arm. Heck, it took me over an hour to change the pugs the first time. I'm almost 71 and figured I would wait for one of the youngsters to get around to it. And, I'm lazy.
I'm completely satisfied with your explanation. I wasn't worried to begin with, otherwise I wouldn't have continued to drive my car.
My apologies for raising the pitchforks so soon. I'm embarrassed and should have known better. I often say take lots of stuff on the internet with a grain of salt but did not follow my own advice and for that I feel like an idiot. Live and learn.
My apologies for raising the pitchforks so soon. I'm embarrassed and should have known better. I often say take lots of stuff on the internet with a grain of salt but did not follow my own advice and for that I feel like an idiot. Live and learn.
It's fine. Being wrong happens. I can't fault you for becoming alarmed at the data you had and in wanting to bring it up for discussion.
And hey, we learned a little more about how spark plug designs are adjusted to change their temperature range!
Bytetronic, very thorough post, if maybe a little emotional. But when the pitchforks come out... hard not to be eh?
In the end, no harm done. Trentiles, good on you for taking your lumps with grace and excellent meme choice. Bytetronic, thanks for putting together such a thorough explanation. I imagine that knocked out a good chunk of your day.
We selected the 8C8S at first b/c it's the engine series as the B48/B38 and the I8 motor boost a lot more than the F56 B38.
We will test the 8D8S and see these compare to the 8C8S and 8B8S.
Bytetronik, Any update With 8D8S comparison to the Stock plugs? Or even your recommended 8C8S. Just like everyone here, interested in different options and what experiences we have with other plugs.
Bytetronik, Any update With 8D8S comparison to the Stock plugs? Or even your recommended 8C8S. Just like everyone here, interested in different options and what experiences we have with other plugs.
Thank you for your time.
You should follow the advice of your tuner. What does he recommend?
It's fine. Being wrong happens. I can't fault you for becoming alarmed at the data you had and in wanting to bring it up for discussion.
And hey, we learned a little more about how spark plug designs are adjusted to change their temperature range!
Bytetronic, very thorough post, if maybe a little emotional. But when the pitchforks come out... hard not to be eh?
In the end, no harm done. Trentiles, good on you for taking your lumps with grace and excellent meme choice. Bytetronic, thanks for putting together such a thorough explanation. I imagine that knocked out a good chunk of your day.
Yep, there's nothing wrong with being wrong, if one is man enough to apologize when they are in the wrong. lol. Kudos to Trentile for manning up.
Still waiting for the OP to chime in with his thoughts... Afterall, this is his PSA 😀
Btw, our company name is Bytetronik and not Bytetronic.
Old thread, interesting stuff. About to change plugs. Confirm this SILZKGR8C8S plug is compatible with 2018 F60 B38A15A engine? Will the advantages discussed here benefit this engine over using stock SILZKGR8B8S?
TIA
Old thread, interesting stuff. About to change plugs. Confirm this SILZKGR8C8S plug is compatible with 2018 F60 B38A15A engine? Will the advantages discussed here benefit this engine over using stock SILZKGR8B8S?
TIA
unless you are running a tune on the engine, the C variant will not offer any advantages over the B. I would stick with B if you haven’t changed the engine tune any.
06-05-2018, 04:59 PM
This is not exactly rocket science, you know... lol
I wasn't worried to begin with, otherwise I wouldn't have continued to drive my car.
