Have we hit the plateau for performance parts development? It seems now that it has been about 2 years after the April 2002 release of the Mini that new product development has really slowed down for the performance parts sector.

No really new exhausts have come out, the cold air intakes are all the same, same types of pulleys, headers, brake kits......

It seems to me that most of the parts manufacturers flooded the market quickly with pretty much cookie cutter products. You can pretty much buy an exhaust, pulley, cold air intake.... from any of them and they all pretty much perform the same. Even the exhausts are within a few hp of each other, basically just a different sound depending on what mufflers they threw on.

It seems now that most of the innovation is coming from the Mini owners (i.e. HAI from Andy, splitters and other parts from Peter....). None of the manufacturers really came up with ground breaking designs. It is neat seeing home grown products, but these are products people are putting together in their garages and doing their own testing. I can't believe none of the larger manufacturers are coming up with ideas like these. It just seems to be "lets get a high flow filter and put a shield around it." It wasn't until someone decided to move all the tubing around and hook one up directly to the TB for $30 that really changed the designs. How come these companies that spend $100,000's of dollars on research can't come up with unique designs. It is usually the same types of design constraints with a few small tweaks. Obviously not all manufacturers are like this in every way. Some have put out a few things with slightly larger twists on products from other companies.

It is also amazing at the amount of the stuff that gets rebadged.

I guess I am posting this, to indicate my frusturation at a lack of innovation across a lot of the manufacturers of these performance parts. Just the same types of stuff with very little numbers to prove it. In fact a small individual out of his garage can make an innovative HAI and provide detailed numbers, but I have never seen any other product manufacturer put out any numbers on their intake except for some hp claims, which have almost always been elevated. This is just indicative of the perceived lack of innovation and testing. This isn't a rant against any single manufacturer, but just a general statement across the whole industry. There are some manufacturers who make some good products, or ones that are pursing the task of building good products at low prices. This is not even indicative of just the Mini industry, but across a lot of the SEMA related industries.

Anyway, maybe this is what we have to continue looking forward to for the next couple of years until the new engines come out and a whole slew of new products (i.e. tweaked turbo products from other cars such as the EVO...) come out for the Mini.

 

My gosh man, what do you want? There are laws of physics at work here!

The MINI engine is about 97.6 cubic inches. At the 200 HP level this means the engine is developing 2.05 Horsepower per cubic inch. A Winston Cup car develops about 2.18 Horsepower per cubic inch and is only good for 500 miles. To get to that level has taken years. I'm sure it was quite easy for them to get to about 1.75 or so, it's when you start reaching the limit is when it gets very difficult (read expensive) to go further. When there are enormous purses at stake they can afford to put thousands and thousands of dollars into research for another horsepower or two.

Formula One engines go way above that level, but they are not limited to two valves per cylinder and flat tappet cams. They also run at double or more the engine speed that a street engine could run and remain practical. Their engines cost hundreds of thousands and only last an hour or so.

I think that given the limited market for such mods, the aftermarket has done a GREAT job tweaking this amazing little engine.

It was not that long ago when 1 Horsepower per cubic inch was Par. Even the normally aspirated, standard Cooper engine exceeds that at 1.18 HP/CI.

I expect that even a major redesign of this little engine couldn't do much more. An engine is a pump. As you increase the fuel/air mixture volume that you pump in, you increase HP. There is just only so much you can do to pump more fuel/air into a fixed displacement engine.

I am coming from the opposite direction from you. I am amazed that they get this kind of horsepower out of this engine and it still lives. AMAZING!

When the aftermarket can find a way to increase the horsepower in such a way that they can recoup their investment and make profit, then it will happen. It's just plain old business at work.

There's an ancient saying among hot rodders, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

My hat is off to the developers and builders of this amazing little engine and to the aftermarket that is taking it to the practical max.

I hope you read no hostility in this message, only explanation of the practicality involved in adding horsepower.

 

I think you missed my point. It was not about the power. There are tuning kits out there at 275-300hp. That is great. My complaint was more the lack of innovation, and the general lack of new products at this point. Very few if any new products have been released in the last 6 months, and most of these are just variations on the current items out there. My point is not "Why aren't there 400hp kits?" but more from the point that every part out there, like the cold air intake, is the same, but no innovation. Same cookie cutter idea just with a slightly different package. While at the same time Andy comes up with a HAI in his garage for $35, posts detailed numbers (which we almost without fail have never seen from any manufacturer), and has come up with a totally unique take on the intake idea. The 7 or more manufacturers of CAI for the Mini have had two years (and from what they say, they have spent large sums of money on research, that is why they have to sell them for $150-$250), but they can't come up with a unique design. I know I have just picked on CAI intakes, but it can be carried over to headers, exhausts......Not trying to tout just Andy, but we have seen it from a number of people over the past few years.

You could argue that there isn't much of a market out there for the Mini. But I said that is a bunch of talk. First, Mini owners are unique in that many of them have disposable income that far exceeds the class range of the car. Many people spend $10,000 or more on mods for their car. Secondly the world market is huge for this car. By the end of this year there should be more than 400,000 Minis on the road worldwide. Not bad for a 2.5 year old product. A lot of these product manufacturers are selling overseas, or are in catalogs overseas, so a lot of them are getting global exposure. Heck even caddman is shipping over to Singapore. So I think that there is plenty of market.

Anyway, this is just my observation. Most likely not everyone agrees. Just something I have noticed in the past 6 months or so. So I though I would post it to see what other people thought.

 

You know that big aluminum bumper behind the bumper cover? Why doesn't somebody make an intercooler the same size to replace it, and then cut slots in the cover for air flow? An intercooler more than 3 1/2 feet long and 8 inches wide! How about a larger capacity supercharger that would provide 25 psi at lower rpm coupled with an electric water pump? How about different ratio gear sets for the differential and maybe reworked and strengthened straight cut gears for the tranny? What about cams, anybody besides Schrick out there?
I read about Hondas out there pushing 350hp streetable with front wheel drive, why not us? If I had the time I'd start working on the IC for the bumper first and try to incorporate a CAI into the bumper too.

 

And I think you missed one of my points. It is strictly business. If there is someone with an idea that can be developed, tested, produced and marketed for a profit, it will most likely be done.

Maybe the bumper intercooler is one of those ideas, although I'm curious what will replace the actual structure of the bumper that will give adequate crash protection.

Even as strong as these little engines seem to be, I expect that the engine life at the 350HP level could be measured in hours, minutes or maybe even seconds.

There is a practical limit to everything. I don't doubt that there are many people out there willing to spend money for MINI horsepower. But once you reach a certain limit, it gets much more expensive per horsepower to add it on.

Horsepower is like money, most everyone wants "just a little bit more."

My $0.02,

 

If you had to guess, what percentage of MINI owners do you think mod their cars? How about on thiss board alone? Most people might add a parcel shelf, or if they really feel like blowing some cash, new wheels. I'm sure some don't want to deal with possible warranty issues, some are happy with the performance of the car - and finally - I think the typical owner of the MINI is different from the typical owner of an EVO or WRX. If more MINI owners were "tuner" oriented, the market would respond in kind.

 

i believe the winston cup cars are all motor, not FI. The cooper S is making very good hp/displacement because of the SC, otherwise, we'd just have 1.15 ratio like the cooper does. What manufacturer doesnt make at least 1=1 ratio now (assuming that manufacturer touts the car as a "sporty" or "performance" car)?

I agree with you (lil redmini), though, that the supply side doesnt give a crap. it is cheap for them to develop the cookie cutter products, and it is profitable because mostly, no one cares whether they are cookie cutter or not. show them some "numbers" and the people are pleased because, hell, it is disposable income, right? It requires much less effort to simply buy what's available, instead of telling the supply that "it is not good enough".

However, I am with you (d-graekjnhtknds-something) on the need for more grassroots development of better products like the efforts we've been seeing from andy and m7, and whoever. The HAI = awesome, cheap, shows real results that are significant even over the current industry leading CAI. the m7 device has made many people fairly happy for a price of $0 (though unfortunately, i was not one of them).

personally, i want to see the aftermarket make an OEM looking, fully automated, chipotle burrito making assembly line in a tight spiral in the boot section, but it looks like i'm going to have to innovate this one myself.

(edited to get people's names right. well, one anyway)

 

Development has been in fits and starts, even from the beginning. It's been a dry spell lately, though.

GIAC's fallen off the scene, none of the euro manufacturers of ECUs have chosen to distribute their products in the US, and of the chips that are available there's no solid record of independent dynos. (And I'm sorry--$700 to discover whether or not there are benefits is too much to ask.)

Similarly, some demonstrable gains and reasonable prices for A/A intercoolers would be well-received. Especially living in the South. I could see $6-700 but not the $1000-1200 prices people are asking.

I'd like to see adjustable shocks that don't require removal from the car.

At some point I'm still planning on buying springs, control arms, firmer control-arm bushings, an intercooler, ECU and exhaust. For now, though, I'm on the fence.

The only solution I can see is someone like GRM or European Car doing a dyno shootout. The vendors seem reluctant to publish their own testing, and no one can afford to buy one of everything to do the kind of comparison we'd all like to see....

Jeff
(15%, intake, wheels, swaybar so far)

 

I understand your frustration. I think that the tuners knocked off the easy targets first, or ones that are aligned with products that work on other cars. Greater creativity will come out of enthusiasts like us, or out of racing. Personally there is some benefit for a trickle of innovation - my wallet only goes so far and I haven't yet purchased all that I want!

Friedduck: The LEDA's are externally adjustable shocks. and the GRS AA IC looks promising.

 

I don't agree with the statement that "if more people wanted it, the market would support it". This is a nice textbook economics statement, but is not always true. We want "true independent numbers", but does any of the manufacturers give them to us? No! most don't even mention this. I think, First this is because a lot of manufacturers don't even do very extensive testing. I know I keep picking on CAI's, but some manufacturers on the boards have stated, they don't even know the temperature of the intake air and if it is even colder. But they can produce an Excel spreadsheet showing a 20hp gain. The same can be said for exhausts. Has anyone posted pressure readings? Tons of statements on reduce backpressure, and more overinflated claims on hp, but no pressure readings? Doesn't make sense. Second, I also think that the manufacturers of the products are hidden. A lot of the "store fronts" that we buy these products from, don't make the products. They are made in a shop somewhere, and stamped with the companies names. Sometimes the same product is made for multiple companies. The companies that sell it don't really know the performance aspects of the product they are selling.


I also think a lot of people modify their cars compared to other vehicles. How much they modify can be questioned. Some people only put in a parcel shelf. But it is amazing how many people have pulleys and exhausts. Again this is about performance innovation. Not power. Power to displacement ratios and more hp is not necessarily what I was talking about. I am talking about performance (i.e. throttle response, handling, braking, gearing.... and yes power increases).

jinubob81,

I agree for the need for more grassroots work being done. What is sad is that it is being done on very small budgets by consumers. On one side it is good that owners are involved in development. What is sad is that there are all these companies making all this money on marked up products, producing nothing. The same exact stuff made for the Mini can be found on a dozen or more other brand of cars with just slight modifications.

friedduck,

I agree with you that it does come in spurts, but it seems that each spurt brings less innovation, and these last 6 months have been really dead with nothing new on the horizon.

 

Sorry to hear that some MINI owners are wanting more and not getting it.
Could more be done? Yes. Is it going to cost $$$ to do the R&D? Yes.
Who's going to pay for that invested R&D cost if the MINI market is small as it is? Most likely unless your name is DINAN or JCW, it is the developer of the product that will sink in the funds that will not be reclaimed in terms of profit.

An excellent example is the pure racing exhaust that Caddman is laboring over for many many months trying to fine tune it and do some innovation. He's not doing a Cat-back like others do, he's doing an entire exhaust system much like supersprint has their system. There is no way he can charger enough for it because it is not mass market in appeal. Further it is the limit of the MINI-chrysler engine head design that doesn't allow as much power to be gained from any aftermarket exhaust-thus it is a bottleneck. Caddman estimates it might take about $10,000 to build a custom Head from the bottom up that will do what he wants so he can build a great exhaust system.

So the other question comes up-if he and Cat & Dog racing are going to sink $$$ into doing R&D where is this money coming from if they cannot recoupe the cost from sales of the product being developed? Probably he is doing it as a labor or love or he is dipping into profits from selling regular upgrade parts that are the bread and butter of sales for most of the vendors. Businesses need to sell merchandise to stay in business.

There is no way that a 350 or 400 HP MINI kit is going to have mass appeal because the cost will be too high or the stress on the engine will make owners think twice about doing that to their daily drivers. I watched the DVD Lemans recently and appreciated that the cars are built for racing with high HP and performance and the racing team hopes that the engine will last for the duration of the "race". I want my MINI to last for 10 to 15 years, I will settle for a little usable extra HP up to 190 to 200 and tweak the suspension and wheels and not expect too much more.

Innovation? I see innovation coming in various forms, tempered by small budgets and a lack of time to do both sales/installation/and R&D. Small shops that have to keep alive doing sales and installations don't have the time to do heavy R&D. So that work gets done when time allows- Randy Webb is a great example. He'll work with others to get products out there looking for a realistic time frame and as reasonable cost but it's hard- take a look at his double intercooler, his water to air intercooler, his ported and polished cylinder head with cam, his own version of the Powerchip etc.

Peter at M7 is perhaps doing the most that we can see visibly. Turbo kits and Nitrous. I'm sure he's working on many more things he can't discuss until the time is ready.

Dan at Piloracing tries to do more with less. These are vendors on a limited budget of time and resources. They are not building for the mass market Honda or Toyota subcompacts.

So if you want a really hot upgrade kit- why don't you to talk to Peter or randy and sink in some R&D money to help develop something that you want to put on your MINI. Your ideas are needed.

 

Someone should build an intake hose that looks like this:



I don't want royalties ... just one of the hoses.

 

It has a lot to do with the all mighty dollar. Development COSTS wether it is in someone's garage or a high tech clean room it all costs money up front.I agree with you DG in wondering why the " majors " haven't gotten into our world. I am only speaking from our ( M7) prospective but new ideas is not the problem the money to develop them is the real issue. We are a small outfit but have managed to complete development on several items I think could be considered exciting. Ceramic/titanium rotor 6 piston caliper with C&C machined c hat with a total package weight of 13.5 lbs is kind of different. Turbo system for the standard cooper bringing it up to Cooper S power figures seems to have value to some. Tubular lower front control arms saving weight and giving much more control over steering input has been a winner. Carbon fiber hood with LIMITED performance value in weight savings but mostly a look desired by some is starting to move . Our three different Carbon Fiber aero pieces, lightweight segmented flywheel, high quality replacement grill pieces and certainly last but not least the plasma booster are all items that the buying public has begun to benefit from. I don't want to list our entire product line here , most of it is on the web site, but I just want to offer our position on what we are trying to accomplish. As for items on the prototype stage as a bit of a tease we coming out in the next few weeks with our OWN versions of high performance adjustable tie rod end links, oil catch can system , and the ability to do a much better job of lowering your oil temp ( with numbers ) than the stock oil cooler in the mini is doing at present. All in all I agree with your comments , how many " cold " air filters do we need with a paper element and aluminum heat shield anyway ? And yes where are the major players ?It's hard doing this all by ourselves.

Randy
Team M7

www.m7tuning.com

 

Don't go changing your business model on my account.

 

Andy as you are in charge of the M7 publicity dept we take everything you say very seriously Keep up the good work and we will have to send you a T shirt ! Have a good day

:smile:

Randy
Team M7

 

Okay, for the sake of argument - I'll agree that a higher proportion of MCS owners mod their cars than let's say, Camry owners. Since the MCS is really the car we're talking about here, how many have hit the market since introduction? It is entirely possible that this market is not yet mature - correct? Let's face it, the MCS has been in the US for a little over 2 years, initially difficult to come by. Many of the early tuners had Coopers, because that's what they could get first. Another thing to consider is once the younger crowd (think import tuner scene) gets their hands on used Coopers or MCS's, you may see a whole new set of vendors getting involved in the aftermarket....

 

Dan you are correct about the Import Tuner scean not happening yet. I exhibit at a lot of the Import shows and I am usually one of the only Minis there . There is a ton of interest in the car by spectators and other exhibitors and as soon as the used car market starts up there is no doubt that the will hit that scene hard. That being said I am not sure if we , the more performance oriented , will be happy with that comes out of this. Yes there will be some performance activity but along with that will be trends which I have already witnessed on Minis such as lambo doors, 20 inch chrome wheels , 5 tv screens and last but not least LOTS of NEON ! All in all like you said it will create some good things but there will be some products we can't even imagine now.

Randy
Team M7

www.M7tuning.com

 

Minihune,


It does take money, I agree. But some of the companies are taking our money. When Dan at PiloRacing can come out with a $140 intake, than the ones selling for $200, that look identical, are making $60 more in profit that you would think could go for R&D. GSR is making an intercooler that is as good if not better than some of the other ones out there for about $300-$400 less. Some innovation is out there with the numbers. Let's just take the GSR for example. Here is a guy who developed it and produced, excellent hard numbers on his product and is selling it for at least $300 cheaper than anything out there. Add the unique and innovative diverter and this is a pretty neat product. I would argue that a lot of companies put no R&D into their products. Come on. A K&N filter, with a metal heat shield. If they spent more than $200 researching this, than they don't deserve to be in business.

I agree in the fact that there are not as many Mini's sold as say something like a Civic. But about 2.5 times as many Minis are sold in the US as the Honda S2000. And about 10% more Minis are sold than Acura RSX's. I would say this is a pretty good number. Add the global nature of the Mini brand and it exceeds these classes of cars much more. Also a lot of Mini tuners are also tuners for other brands. Companies such as Alta do much more than just Minis. They do Evo's and WRX's as well, allowing them to spread and share R&D costs even more.

I think Randy does some innovation, but not from the products you mentioned. His head and cam work, is the same type of head and cam work at least 8 other companies are offering, including the same Schrick cam sold by about 20 companies. Since Schrick is the only cam out there. The water-to-air intercooler is the same type design by about 4 other companies, Powerchip is old news, with better ones at a competitive price being sold by Randy. The double intercooler is unique, and I think he has some cool stuff coming in the pipeline, like a brake kit for 16" wheels. But even Randy hasn't released anything new in a while.

Even so, I am not really upset with the smaller shops, they are producing good things on a limited budget, such as Randy and Pilo Racing. I really wouldn't put Helix into this category, since they are not really focused on manufacturing products, but more tuning. M7 has done an outstanding job on this front. They have produced many innovative products on limited budgets. Some of their products are polarizing, but at least it is not the same dribble coming out from other manufacturers.

As far as JCW and Dinan are concerned. It is the exact same package as everyone else is putting out. A good example was the EVO test on the 6 or so tuning packages from various companies. All the cars were basically carbon copies of each other. Same kits as everyone else. Him lets see??.... A pulley, exhaust, header, chip, and CAI. No innovation.

 

Let me start by saying that I am in agreement with the comments here, both the lack of innovation of late, and the high cost of developing products for a small market. I think the small market is key, since our motor is not in use in other vehicles, and is due to be phased out / replaced in the next generation of Minis. That just doesn't bode well for investing a lot of time and energy in developing this motor when it will be a whole new ball game in a year or two. We may be orphans, unless this motor finds a new home. What generated development in the past, like the original Mini, was that it was used forever in various BMC cars: Sprites, Midgets, Minis, etc. Also, those of willing to really modify out cars are in the minority. If you read some of the other forums, you will find Mini owners afraid to wax their cars without some kind of approval document from BMW that it won't void the warranty! With enthusiasts like that, I wouldn't count on selling a lot of exotic go fast goodies.

One thing that has perked my interest is for Randy at M7: What about giving us a performance version of your new carbon fiber hood, with a nice redo of the scoop to accomodate a better intercooler and/or a decent air scoop for the HAI? That seems like a reasonable next step. If I take $200 I would have spent on one of the CAI kits off the price of the M7 hood, and invest another $50 in a airfilter, the value of the new trick hood would be more attractive. Since getting more cold air to the motor is so important, this could be a significant mod, and could have a "cool" look too!

 

Oh so true. I used to frequent the BMW ///M5 message boards, and it was amazing how many people there had MINIs. They had simply bought the MINI as their "fun car." That's, infact, what happened in my family. My dad wanted a MINI as his "fun car" (he drives an M5) and it worked out nicely because I needed a car to do my 100+ mile daily commute. I could drive it during the week, and he'd take it out on the weekends.

But the point is, that people like this have money and are looking to spend it. Hell, they already paid $20K+ for "fun." I think innovation will be rewarded. Sure, we all complain about high prices, but there are those people that don't complain and just go to the ATM. Eventually, the price will come down and benefit everyone else. I applaud M7 and everyone else.

It was mentioned earlier how expensive well-thought-out, non-cookie-cutter mods can be to develop. Caddman and his exhaust system were used as an example. Apparently he estimated $10,000 to do it right. Well maybe he could look around and find an M5 owner (to continue my example) or even a few, who would be willing to split the costs among them and get the full system, done right. Even if the performance isn't earth-shattering, you'd be surprised at how far bragging-rights go! Maybe nobody will bite, but maybe they will. Hell, you could make it more palletable by fixing their cars, as if it were your own, if anything does go wrong. They aren't knowledgable about fixing cars' innards, while you are! I know repairs are my dad's biggest worry. So maybe it's a far-fetched idea, but so is a twin-charged MINI.

Just brainstorming out loud, and giving my take on the subject. Thanks for "listening", (reading...whatever)

 

" One thing that has perked my interest is for Randy at M7: What about giving us a performance version of your new carbon fiber hood, with a nice redo of the scoop to accomodate a better intercooler and/or a decent air scoop for the HAI? That seems like a reasonable next step. If I take $200 I would have spent on one of the CAI kits off the price of the M7 hood, and invest another $50 in a airfilter, the value of the new trick hood would be more attractive. Since getting more cold air to the motor is so important, this could be a significant mod, and could have a "cool" look too! "

Funny you should mention this My partner cut two vent type holes approx 6 inch by 12 inch in his prototype hood about 3 weeks ago for test purposes with regards to general engine cooling and was amazed at the results . We have a idea about making some sort of louver to cover each hole similar to the hoods the M3's on the touring car circuit in Europe use.As I wash my car at least 4 to 5 times a week ( yes I am nuts ) my contribution to the project is that we offer some type of under hood cover you could snap into place to keep out rain or water during washings. Now this is all in the " imagine this " stage but we are working on it . So many ideas so little time damn it

Randy
Team M7

www.M7tuning.com

 

Hey Randy,

Ever thought about adding a slightly higher buldge for the hood? I bet if you could put more airflow over that IC you would see a lot less heatsoak. If you then had a splitter for the incoming air on a hood with a power buldge you can partition the air and get additional airflow to other parts of the engine bay. My guess is that there is a ton of stagnant air under the hood causing power loss due to heat soak that can be eliminated with a larger hood intake and proper ducting.

If you could save people weight (however marginal) and at the same time reduce heatsoak for $800-900 then you would have a real winner.

Patrick

 

Thanks for the reply Randy. I think you will find a number of folks interested in the potential results from taking the further step of cutting into the hood.

With your hood pricee at @$850, minus the cost of the typical CAI at $200, and your hood now costs @$650, with more benefits than just CAI. Add the increased engine cooling, which is another plus, and worth at least another couple hundred bucks, and the hood is now down into the $400 range! With probably much better numbers for cooling, air intake, and possibly intercooler improvements.

Please keep us posted!!
Thanks,
Jim

 

Just leave it last AND least. You get more respect that way. This little devil is serpent lubricant.

 

Hey! Quit wasting our NorCal water!
Less time washing, more time developing?

It's been said, but companies have to do what pays the bills. Cars have been around for 100 years, so most of the good ideas are already taken...