I was thinking the same thing mac (sprayer). The benefits can be many:

1. increased perfomance (the main reason)
2. less cost, much less cost!
3. weight-savings
4. increased real estate for future additions, and further performance gains :grin:

_________________
2003 IB MCS

Here's a couple graphs. Note that these were done on different days. Air temps were similar and the same stretch of road was used.

I'll need to do multiple runs with each configuration on the same day to get a good picture of the pressure drop. Also, I plan to log temps with all of those runs as well.

That said, the HAI looks very promising:

http://www.ross-tech.net/andy/mini/i...treamhai01.png
http://www.ross-tech.net/andy/mini/i...ifoldhai01.png

Hi ANdy,

I'm sorry but I don't understand what is being measured on the graphs you just posted...but I'm guessing that the HAI performed better than the alta in that paticular field?

L

>>This is good stuff!
>>
>>I bet many other vendors are suddenly working on their own versions of this mod.
>>
>>Isn't it interesting the positive response Andy got when he posted the concept, pictures, and results all at once? :grin:
>>
>>_________________
>>http://members.fortunecity.com/dbarr...e_2smaller.jpg
>>Treasurer, SCMM | paul@scmm.org

For all the heck we give Andy about bugging the vendors, he has a good grip on testing and collecting what I call primary measurements.

Most if not all vendors always measure hp readings with very poor setups and reproducibility. hp is always a secondary measurement (a benefit derived the affect of a primary change).

All these vendors claim that their intake frees up restrictions and allows colder, denser air to reach the engine. But I have never seen a single pressure or temperature reading by any vendor. This is where I think at least Andy and I have a problem as do many others. Showing us some hp numbers mean nothing. Heck we could probably put a cap on the intake and blow a ton of hot air into the intake and still show hp gains. Most everyone's testing shows results from different days, different ambient temperatures.... This is the problem with taking a secondary measurement and not the primary measurements. If we want intakes that provide colder denser air then that is what we should be measuring. Andy came on and showed his pictures, his thinking in the design and some measurements of temperature and pressure. If every vendor did this then I think almost no one here would have a problem. The measurement readings Andy is taking is sure a heck of a lot cheaper and more reproducible than the getting dyno readings, so I do not know why vendors are so hung up on dyno's.

The other area is exhausts. Everyone says their design reduces backpressure and frees up the exhaust gases, but I have never, ever, ever seen backpressure readings from the vendors. Again just some dyno readings which everyone already knows are too high and no one can reproduce. Again backpressure readings would be a heck of a lot cheaper to produce than dyno readings.

I think if people followed this we would start seeing a totally different change in design and a drop in costs. If better performing intakes can be had for $40, then the $260 designs are never going to last.

>>Hi ANdy,
>>
>>I'm sorry but I don't understand what is being measured on the graphs you just posted...but I'm guessing that the HAI performed better than the alta in that paticular field?
>>
>>L

The first graph is the relationship of between "negative boost" and RPM. When you step on the throttle, the engine needs a given amount of air (related to its displacement). As rpms climb, that air requirement grows. At some point, you reach a plateau in the amount of air the intake system can provide. The engine needs to perform work in order to get that air requirement it needs. That work is a vacuum that sucks more air in or "negative boost." So the less -psi you have upstream, the better of you are downstream.

Analogy: Breathing through a straw. Lung = engine, straw = intake ductwork. What this intake does is eliminate the straw.

Okay. So now could'nt you remove the plastic panel above the radiator that the hood seals down on? This would give colder air flow, no? Or at least bore out the opening for the factory snout...

...on second thought this might reduce airflow over the IC.

>>minhune, with a FMIC, the scoop could be used to get pleny of fresh air into this intake, as well as clearing the engine bay of heat in general.
>>
>>Sure there is some weight saved, maybe couple pounds. That is good. But, I think even more beneficial is the real estate gained, and how that could be used for other goodies :wink: Plenty of room for a UNIChip, PB, or other creative possibilities...
>>
>>_________________
>>2003 IB MCS

How about putting a battery there.

I attached a $3.17 Fram breather onto the CCV line:

:lol:

Here's some more pics. The Alta Installed: http://www.ross-tech.net/andy/mini/i...nstalled03.jpg
The HAI installed: http://www.ross-tech.net/andy/mini/i...refilter01.jpg
Closeup of the HAI: http://www.ross-tech.net/andy/mini/i...lter/bigkn.jpg


_________________
SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!
http://www.ross-tech.net/andy/mini/minitdb.jpg
...How Fast is Your MINI?...My Mods...

This parallels what some people in the Honda upgrade community have found out over the years - a 'CAI' doesn't provide much of an advantage over a short piece of hose and a bare K&N. Both are better than the stock airbox, though.

With a naturally aspirated engine, increases in intake temp translate directly into increases in charge temperature. So, in a Honda application, for instance, lowering the intake temp by 10 degrees can actually result in the charge temp dropping by 10 degrees. In the MCS, which has an intercooler that is between 60% and 80% efficiency, that 10 degree difference becomes 2 to 4 degrees. Not much, especially compared with the increased boost possible when the intake path is shortened and smoothed.

BTW, on an aesthetic note, the HAI is way uglier than the Alta. BUT ... acceleration is smooth and airflow does not seem to dip as much at 3,000 and 6,000 rpm. The sound is more pleasing to my ears. The high pitched whistle at small throttle openings is almost gone.

I think you answered your own question. This is the reason why vendors show you dynos which can be setup to show whatever gains they choose instead of hard data that shows their product isn't very good! :roll:

Great idea Andy. Question...how are you mounting the KN onto the TB? I don't see a clamp.

Thanks,
Sid

Maybe this is why KN didnt bother with heat sheilding their typhoon, i wonder how the k&n typhoon compres to the alta setup, i wonder how the metal intake tube does vs the HAI and/or alta...meaning are these gains from a shorter route or due to some hose collapse that the stock and alta and any other soft hose from the filter to the throttlebody would experience.....Just food for thought and hopefully more testing...... :wink:

>>>>minhune, with a FMIC, the scoop could be used to get pleny of fresh air into this intake, as well as clearing the engine bay of heat in general.
>>>>
>>>>Sure there is some weight saved, maybe couple pounds. That is good. But, I think even more beneficial is the real estate gained, and how that could be used for other goodies :wink: Plenty of room for a UNIChip, PB, or other creative possibilities...
>>>>
>>>>_________________
>>>>2003 IB MCS
>>
>>How about putting a battery there.

One could put a battery there I suppose, but adding 40+ pounds to the front of the MCS is not high on my list though. It is valuable space... It would be nice to start compiling a list of filters that would work for this application. It is bound to be a short list, but a selection would be nice :wink:



_________________
2003 IB MCS

Here's the hose clamp peeking out:
http://www.ross-tech.net/andy/mini/i...oseclamp01.jpg

I think I like this very creative solution :grin: :grin:

Andy, about how much room is there above the filter to the hood lining? I realize that this might be a bit tricky, but just about...

There are 0 inches between the filter and the hood lining. There's a small (~1") mark on the lining where the filter touches it.

I got mine in a cashless transaction with cheese, but I found these guys have the filter for $35:

http://www.racerwheel.com/kn-ru1520.html

Looks like you're getting an extra pound of boost...what does that translate to in hp you think?

Andy, the numbers look impressive, but what does the old "butt dyno" think, can you tell a difference?

In referance to an earlier post with regards to the filter getting wet, why not leave the snorkel on at the clamp by the red arrow, still allowing for some "ram air" :smile: and deflecting any moisture out of the path of the filter. :grin:

Retrospectoscope vision is always 20/20.....So I'm so glad I spent my $200 on the Madness CAI :grin:
His, Chile RED over, Madness intake, Magnaflow exhaust, Helix 15% Pulley & RDR Swaybar
Hers, Electric Blue / Union Jack on top and BONE Stock :grin:

There is no room for either the scoop or the snorkel with the HAI in place.

I haven't done acceleration comparisons yet, but will when I swap the HAI and Alta back and forth for several runs on the same day.

>>I attached a $3.17 Fram breather onto the CCV line:
>>
>>:smile:


--
Cheese

Andy,

have you tried the KN Filter with the Alta hose and heatshield? Im curious to see how much of the improvement is due to filter design only.

holy crap... i'm going to watch this thread like a hawk.

performance has been shown, and so should reflect in real world applications.

let us know how it goes. I'm about to run out and get myself a KN filter.

you have to disable the emission system? what effect would that have (other than disabling the emissions systems...) and also, you need a filter, clamp, a breather, and a nipple...

the intake retailers are going to cry.