Any body used or heard of Wagner Intercoolers?

 

at some point there was a huge debate about wagner's credibility of their front mount, but i haven't seen anyone come in and say they're top notch or something.

Harold @ HP Autowerks, which by the way is an amazing shop in Santa Barbara, CA swears by these guys, but I haven't seen anyone on the MINI side have this intercooler.

 

I'll be the guinnea pig on this and let you know. I've decided not to do the water-to-air from DOS. Instead I'm going to do the Wagner FMIC and a methanol injection kit. I will be purchasing the Wagner from Mini Mania assuming the price holds by the time I'm ready to buy (on MM it's around $550: http://new.minimania.com/part/G2NME3...56-57-COOPER-S) I will be doing this sometime in July as I have other parts I want to install before this.

What info would you all want on it (prior to the methanal kit install obviously)? I'm assuming dyno before and after would be up there. Intake temps probably...but how would I get those? I just have an ETG in my car. Would there be any qualitative info people would like?

 

Of you could also order off of hpautowerks.com website. You can talk to Harold about the intercooler also because I believe he ran a Wagner unit on his 1M track car so I think that's one of the main reasons why he sells that unit because he believes in them.

 

Awesome. What info should I provide everyone for the review of the Wagner FMIC? Like I said, I assume most want dyno number but is there anything else you all would want to see or know about it?

 

Here's a few Q's hopefully you can answer:

I see the website shows the photos of the IC black/powder coated. I wonder if that's standard or is that by special request?

Also are you ordering the track model or street model?
(If track, what modifications did you do for fitment)?

 

Are you liking your Wagner FMIC? I am thinking of ordering one.

 

I have a Wagner FMIC it's matt black and hard-to-notice even on hands and knees in front of the car; no in-yer-face flashy bold stuff. I like that.

I notice that it keeps the drive 'crisp' when outside temps rise and should certainly enhance motoring in hotter US climes.

No figures; I'd imagine it's hard to keep variables constant but I have attached a very simple graph I found.

I use the Torque app and I notice that it keeps input temps lower.

We have adaptive ecus, don't we? I found it took around 200mls for the effects to stabilise. These were an initial softer, less rough, throttle response which seemed to 'go deeper', becoming 'more elastic'. I suppose the extra i/c volume lowered the initial boost effect but allowed it to build higher. IMO the 'running config'. seems to reside in a 'cooler' part of the map and seems to stay there due to the FMIC air cooling effect. Exhaust note seemed to become slightly deeper too, but that might be subjective or normal. (lots of 'seems', I know...)

As well as its discreteness another factor that swung the Wagner my way was the fact that they were offering significantly 'tailored' models for post and pre-lci R56. (The lci model is thicker accommodated by the further-forward bumper.) Other manufacturers seemed to offer a one-size-for-all-make-it-fit approach. I was pleased Wagner had 'thought it through' for me.

Size has to matter; perhaps more so than 'design'. IMO all FMIC enlargements will 'suit' our MINIs. Wagner was the best value-for-money in my case...

It seemed a natural first upgrade for me that seems to regulate temp fluctuations but becomes very necessary if ecu remap is on the cards due to an ability to support the necessary boost enhancements that brings.

 

Ya this looks like they just took the OEM dimensions and added aluminum end tanks in place of the plastic ones. Oh, and put their logo on it. Personally I wouldn't buy anything aside from aero kit from Duell. They seem to be more a brand name than a performance line. They did the same with some OZ wheels. Had their logo stamped on some superturismo's and probably charged half as much more than you could get from OZ direct.

 

On the R53, quite a few aftermarket IC's actually performed WORSE than stock, even though people would rave about how good it was in threads such as these. In fact, at least one of these companies has been mentioned in this very thread.

So IMHO, if you want to buy an intercooler without any worries about wether it's working as advertised, or hasn't copied someone else's design, and actually put in the time to get it to do what it's supposed to do just by the Helix and be done with it. You're giving your business to one of the most respected vendors out there. I don't know why we make things like this so hard.

 

Buy the Helix! I love mine. Install is simple and super clean. The fit and finish is top notch! My car and i are much happier with it.

 

When I here handwringing stories about copied designs I have to wonder how exactly do these folks expect someone to design an IC for a particular model of car so as not to be similar. Impossible!

 

Hey, does anyone know anything about water/methanol injection? Explain to me what it does exactly and why people use it as opposed to an FMIC. Is there a point of diminishing returns with using both?

 

Search posts for user "TheBigChill". He knows all about it.

 

With all due respect, you're wrong. It happens with virtually EVERYTHING in the MINI world--from heads and IC's to even trailer hitches.

Example: Someone makes a better IC. A competitor buys said IC, tears it apart to find out what makes it better than stock, and copies it, reaping the benefits of the first companies efforts to improve over the stock IC, which takes time and money. It's a shortcut that's happened many times over. Then what usually happens is the second company, who invested no time or money into the process of making a better product, charges slightly less, as they have nothing to recoup.

So when you buy a copied product, you're shooting the R&D of future products square in the foot. There is no incentive for a company such as Helix to keep developing things only to be undercut. I'm surprised (and happy) that they still do. There are many good companies besides Helix making quality parts, only to have them copied, and usually poorly. Everyone loses in that situation, except the party who took the shortcut.

 

Agreed. It's the aftermarket business world. What you will find with the knock offs is a hit or miss fit and finish and quality.

Sent from my iPad using NAMotoring

 

No offense taken but I'm not wrong. Have you seen the inside of a Helix...or a forge for that matter? What makes them so different? Or one made for another car brand? Aside from fin density, bull nosed bars what could be so different? Don't get me wrong. I own a helix but I understand that helix did not invent the FMIC. They got the idea from intercoolers designed long before they built theirs. What makes theirs SO MUCH different that a company could not avoid "copying" their design?

I understand your point about R&D and I agree. My point is. An IC has to fit the car and perform and I don't see how else it can be done without some similarity to the Helix. Tyrol sport tried to be different in a fairly big way and it appears it hasn't worked out as planned but boy do I remember how that IC was being talked about on these forums like it was the second coming of Christ. All before it even made it on a customer car.

 

* iron horse- no phone number on website, you can email them. I sent an email 2 weeks ago and nothing. Even the picture they put online shows welds or something inside the inlet/outlet pipe...... has to change the flow...

*Evolve - no specs online, not much of a description either
I sent an email tonight, will see what they say

*DOS - air to water ?? I don't see this on website ? they offer this for a R56 ??

Helix - nice and back up with specs
Forge- cast ends
Wagner - good reviews, don't like the black paint, its got to add to the heat soak time.. maybe easy off oven cleaner and eat the paint off
tylro- nice design but im worried about blocking my rad, I live in vegas and we see 115 degrees . they have a nice write up floating online about testing the temps , heat soak etc..

my means will be-
over all weight
DP across cooler
Max CFM/HP/Turbo it can support ( need room for adding performance parts, bigger turbo etc,,,..)

and the winner is............ GRRRRRRRRRRR

 

NONE.

Keep the stock intercooler, and methane sprayers and intercooler diverters. This will allow your current set up to perform better with cooler temperatures and VIRTUALLY NO TURBO LAG. A larger intercooler is a temperature upgrade but you WILL NOTICE the turbo lag (not fun).

However, if you are interested in the "look" of a larger intercooler, then its just about what brand you want to be representing at car meets/shows/daily life, etc.

I proudly maitain my stock jcw intercooler

 

Wrong. Depending on the cooler design, you can get better IATs, a smaller pressure drop and greater efficiency without an increase in turbo lag.

 

That's not what I was told by a service engineer at MINI.

 

You were told incorrect information by your service technician. I'd be happy to put you in touch with our thermal engineer if you have specific questions, but in a nutshell, the Helix Stepped Core Intercooler produces drastically lower IATs, while reducing pressure drop, and much greater thermal mass than the stock unit (the stock JCW cooler is the same as the S). What that means for the driving experience is that you get greater peak power, especially on cars with higher boost targets like your JCW and much better consistency under repeated on-boost runs.

 

Allow me:

The Forge, with welded sheet metal end tanks (poor flow), protuberant tubes.


and the Helix, with cast end tanks, much greater fin density, thicker core, and bull-nosed bars inside the end tanks.


These differences may seem like details, but they are what makes ours perform. We have reams of test data, collected with our proprietary test equipment including flir imaging and independent-from-OBD2 sensors.





Obviously, we didn't invent the front mount, but we did invent the stepped core design. We took steps to patenting it but discovered that we didn't have the resources to pursue patents in China, so we gave up, and the copies have come.

 

Well I have narrowed it down between Wagner and Helix. My end result now is which one is lighter. I have heard the Wagner is 25lbs or 11lbs....
Helix , what does yours weight in at ?
I'm like 75% going helix just because he defends his products and is on NAM helping us out...!!!!
nice job..!!!

 

If you're down to which one weighs less, just go with which one you really want. All intercoolers are going to weigh roughly the same, and the 1/2 lb-1lb difference that you may find isn't going to be of any benefit to justify going with one IC over another.