Drivetrain New Head and all i can say is WOW
The op has the basic thumper 1 head....
the rmw is the compestor to the thumper2 or 2r...
why do the fanboys try to compare the full race rmw head to the street thumper 1....to compare, you would need the thumper 2 or 2r....
the op mearly stated he was happy with his new head in its performance....low to mid rpm...the thumper head does what it says....he is happy....
if he had gone with a full race head with high rpm power, he might not be so happy.....howmany folks have installed the wrong cam just to swap it out due to the hp range being too high to use the power?? Look at the used cams for sale....
the moral is the mod must suit the end user....
the rmw is the compestor to the thumper2 or 2r...
why do the fanboys try to compare the full race rmw head to the street thumper 1....to compare, you would need the thumper 2 or 2r....
the op mearly stated he was happy with his new head in its performance....low to mid rpm...the thumper head does what it says....he is happy....
if he had gone with a full race head with high rpm power, he might not be so happy.....howmany folks have installed the wrong cam just to swap it out due to the hp range being too high to use the power?? Look at the used cams for sale....
the moral is the mod must suit the end user....
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 89
Likes: 1
From: Where ever the Militay puts me
The debate between porting by CNC and by hand goes back to since when CNC started. I asked the very same question in a different thread. Here's what I've learned, correct me if I'm wrong:
The critics of CNC will say it's great in the sense that everything comes out consistent, but what if you're off on your measurements in the first place? Then everything will be consistently bad. On the other hand, the RMW head most people would agree is spot on, so at least in this instance, the heads are coming out consistently good.
Like you said, there are advantages of hand porting, but consistency isn't one of them. Blending by hand gets rid of all those ridges, but just like CNC, you can wind up taking too much material. The hand porting helps with flow, and getting rid of the little ridges at least theoretically gets rid of a surface variation that potentially can be a source of carbon buildup (Seafoam anyone?)
As for flow testing, it's important to ensure the head is flowing properly, but it doesn't guarantee anything--you can also do a dye test, which adds a little more information, but I don't think anyone is doing that. The flow test will tell if the head is potentially good (or bad), but putting it on the engine and testing on an engine dyno (preferable but impractical) or car dyno is the only way to know for sure.
So what's the best head? Probably one that's initially CNC'd, then finished off with hand polishing. But then you're talking prohibitive cost, and the few heads that I know of that have been done this way aren't making more power than the RMW head.
Anyway, it'd be cool to see some numbers off the dyno on the TPR-1. If your happy with it, that's all that's important--but the forums are littered with parts that people think are making all sorts of power (mainly because they make all sorts of noise) only to be disappointed in what its laying down.
The critics of CNC will say it's great in the sense that everything comes out consistent, but what if you're off on your measurements in the first place? Then everything will be consistently bad. On the other hand, the RMW head most people would agree is spot on, so at least in this instance, the heads are coming out consistently good.
Like you said, there are advantages of hand porting, but consistency isn't one of them. Blending by hand gets rid of all those ridges, but just like CNC, you can wind up taking too much material. The hand porting helps with flow, and getting rid of the little ridges at least theoretically gets rid of a surface variation that potentially can be a source of carbon buildup (Seafoam anyone?)
As for flow testing, it's important to ensure the head is flowing properly, but it doesn't guarantee anything--you can also do a dye test, which adds a little more information, but I don't think anyone is doing that. The flow test will tell if the head is potentially good (or bad), but putting it on the engine and testing on an engine dyno (preferable but impractical) or car dyno is the only way to know for sure.
So what's the best head? Probably one that's initially CNC'd, then finished off with hand polishing. But then you're talking prohibitive cost, and the few heads that I know of that have been done this way aren't making more power than the RMW head.
Anyway, it'd be cool to see some numbers off the dyno on the TPR-1. If your happy with it, that's all that's important--but the forums are littered with parts that people think are making all sorts of power (mainly because they make all sorts of noise) only to be disappointed in what its laying down.
I completely agree, but price point is that, if you want a CNC head that is finished by hand you are looking close to 2500$+ easily and you gain maybe 3~4 HP.
Plus i would rather pay a human hundreds of dollars for hours that they spent working on my head then pay a computer that doesn't compensate for variables that might arrive during the machining process. I merely when with the Thumper head because he is a craftsman with a lot of year in the trade.
Im not debating Jans head vs Thumpers head for power gains both heads have their respective marks. If i was in the market for a race head i might have gone with a big valve CNC head and then hand polished it myself to get the best of both worlds.
Once the temp cools down here ill see about getting some dynos done. In a 110*f+ the engine heat soaks very quickly, hard to tune a car well in those temps.
The op has the basic thumper 1 head....
the rmw is the compestor to the thumper2 or 2r...
why do the fanboys try to compare the full race rmw head to the street thumper 1....to compare, you would need the thumper 2 or 2r....
the op mearly stated he was happy with his new head in its performance....low to mid rpm...the thumper head does what it says....he is happy....
if he had gone with a full race head with high rpm power, he might not be so happy.....howmany folks have installed the wrong cam just to swap it out due to the hp range being too high to use the power?? Look at the used cams for sale....
the moral is the mod must suit the end user....
the rmw is the compestor to the thumper2 or 2r...
why do the fanboys try to compare the full race rmw head to the street thumper 1....to compare, you would need the thumper 2 or 2r....
the op mearly stated he was happy with his new head in its performance....low to mid rpm...the thumper head does what it says....he is happy....
if he had gone with a full race head with high rpm power, he might not be so happy.....howmany folks have installed the wrong cam just to swap it out due to the hp range being too high to use the power?? Look at the used cams for sale....
the moral is the mod must suit the end user....
Fair enough, but the question is how much does the TPR1 add above the standard head, or for that matter, a 15% pulley alone? It's a simple question, but no one has answered it. For those shopping for heads, it's an important one too--is the TPR1 worth putting on an R53, or are you better off with a TPR2 or TPR2R head, or *gulp* maybe even an RMW head?
Do you remember how disappointing the JCW head was? Not that much better than stock. Just would be nice to see some objective numbers to back things up. The TPR1 has always made more sense to me on an R50 than an R53, but that's just an uneducated guess. If it's making power down low on the R53, and Raze is happy with it, that's great--but I'd love to see some side by sides with the stock head, to see exactly what it's doing.
I completely agree, but price point is that, if you want a CNC head that is finished by hand you are looking close to 2500$+ easily and you gain maybe 3~4 HP.
Plus i would rather pay a human hundreds of dollars for hours that they spent working on my head then pay a computer that doesn't compensate for variables that might arrive during the machining process. I merely when with the Thumper head because he is a craftsman with a lot of year in the trade.
Im not debating Jans head vs Thumpers head for power gains both heads have their respective marks. If i was in the market for a race head i might have gone with a big valve CNC head and then hand polished it myself to get the best of both worlds.
Once the temp cools down here ill see about getting some dynos done. In a 110*f+ the engine heat soaks very quickly, hard to tune a car well in those temps.
Plus i would rather pay a human hundreds of dollars for hours that they spent working on my head then pay a computer that doesn't compensate for variables that might arrive during the machining process. I merely when with the Thumper head because he is a craftsman with a lot of year in the trade.
Im not debating Jans head vs Thumpers head for power gains both heads have their respective marks. If i was in the market for a race head i might have gone with a big valve CNC head and then hand polished it myself to get the best of both worlds.
Once the temp cools down here ill see about getting some dynos done. In a 110*f+ the engine heat soaks very quickly, hard to tune a car well in those temps.
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 436
Likes: 2
From: Garden Grove, CA
If the people doing the work know what they are doing, then a CNC porting is just as good as hand porting, vice versa. Both ways that have been used on most of the popular selling heads and produce about the same power when opened up the same amount. TBH CNC just saves time when compared to some one that knows how to hand port and is only as good as the original hand port made to do the mapping for the machine.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 17
As has been mentioned and I've asked many times myself about the numbers the Thumper head puts out. Not trying to compare it to anything other then stock head to start with. I hear every now and then how someone has bought one and just loves it, but NEVER have I seen anyone post numbers let alone a dyno sheet. As I mentioned on the 1st page we know the Head is not a peak HP head but what does it actually put out in the mid-range as it claims to be it's sweet spot.. Even Thumper's web sit posts numbers for the small block Ford heads but not the MINI???
Might be a great head but how are we to know if we never see it's results other then a few people claiming "I love it"....
I agree with cct1 in that I've always thought of the TPR1 head as an R50 head but have no way of knowing... Everyone will say call the vendor, but of course they love their heads/parts and will claim them to be what you need.. I have seen plenty of RMW heads dyno-ed in person and seen plenty of posts of peoples numbers/sheets, just never get to see the numbers for the TPR1 head..
Might be a great head but how are we to know if we never see it's results other then a few people claiming "I love it"....
I agree with cct1 in that I've always thought of the TPR1 head as an R50 head but have no way of knowing... Everyone will say call the vendor, but of course they love their heads/parts and will claim them to be what you need.. I have seen plenty of RMW heads dyno-ed in person and seen plenty of posts of peoples numbers/sheets, just never get to see the numbers for the TPR1 head..
1st Gear
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: SALINAS
Hello all,
Once again my following of many interesting threads here on NAM has inspired me to post on this particular thread. The performance ones having more an interest to me and therefore at times I feel the need to sit down think about what I read and formulate a response that may be helpful to all. I first wanted to consult with a few of my long time friends in the Performance Engine Industry that have years more experience than I with porting by way of both hand and CNC heads. Unless pressed for specific names and shops I will not bore you all with who they are. I can however if necessary provide a list, but I feel may disturb the current MINI Performance Head suppliers? My direct experience with hand and CNC ported heads was with COSWORTH during the Vega Racing Program at Performance Dynamic’s in Sacramento Ca. and with Victory Associates Performance Engines in San Leandro Ca. to name two.
If any of you contact Professional Performance Engine Machine or Head Shops my response below regarding CNC vs. Hand ported heads should be the overwhelming result of that consultation with regards to your questions and confusions of CNC vs. Hand Ported Heads. \
To be sure just because a head is CNC ported, this does not mean that it's a good cylinder head design to start with? Either way by hand or by CNC both can be good or bad. In order to get a CNC’d (production level)head you need to first copy (digitize) a hand ported head to create a CNC machined ported version of it, so if the hand ported port is not good, then the CNC port will also not be good. There are general rules to get a production head that works well with a certain set of standard or more commonly used modifications but to gain the optimum levels out of your engine a careful consideration of all the parts used must be calculated and perhaps end results tested. In other words there is no one Performance Head off the shelf production hand Ported or CNC machined for all applications. Many suppliers of performance heads offer an adequate production level performance head to serve a general use. Comparatively speaking Performance Engine or Head Machine Shops offering tailored Performance hand ported heads may be a better cost effective value for the people wanting to pinch every bit of power out of their engines.
A very good rule of thumb before you spend your hard earned dollars is to purchase your CNC or hand ported heads from a company that specializes in custom performance heads or engines, which means they will understand flow and port volume relations that is required to build fast running street and race track engines. If you are purchasing through a supplier or retailer ask for the name of the machine shop doing the work and try to talk to them directly. Stay away from retailers that will not allow the trust to you as their customer or prospective customer to talk directly their supplying Machine shop for most of your questions. The reality is there are no verbal or VUDO secrets except in high profile Racing Teams and only a physical head can be digitized to copy so retailers and suppliers should not fear copy right loss allowing you direct contact with their machinists? A bygone conclusion for many old timers like myself is the part retailers or suppliers do not have the technical level, training or experience to thoroughly and with none bias answer all you questions anyway?
Good luck to all and do not let anyone detour you from getting either a CNC or Hand Ported head for your MINI.
If any of you contact Professional Performance Engine Machine or Head Shops my response below regarding CNC vs. Hand ported heads should be the overwhelming result of that consultation with regards to your questions and confusions of CNC vs. Hand Ported Heads. \
To be sure just because a head is CNC ported, this does not mean that it's a good cylinder head design to start with? Either way by hand or by CNC both can be good or bad. In order to get a CNC’d (production level)head you need to first copy (digitize) a hand ported head to create a CNC machined ported version of it, so if the hand ported port is not good, then the CNC port will also not be good. There are general rules to get a production head that works well with a certain set of standard or more commonly used modifications but to gain the optimum levels out of your engine a careful consideration of all the parts used must be calculated and perhaps end results tested. In other words there is no one Performance Head off the shelf production hand Ported or CNC machined for all applications. Many suppliers of performance heads offer an adequate production level performance head to serve a general use. Comparatively speaking Performance Engine or Head Machine Shops offering tailored Performance hand ported heads may be a better cost effective value for the people wanting to pinch every bit of power out of their engines.
A very good rule of thumb before you spend your hard earned dollars is to purchase your CNC or hand ported heads from a company that specializes in custom performance heads or engines, which means they will understand flow and port volume relations that is required to build fast running street and race track engines. If you are purchasing through a supplier or retailer ask for the name of the machine shop doing the work and try to talk to them directly. Stay away from retailers that will not allow the trust to you as their customer or prospective customer to talk directly their supplying Machine shop for most of your questions. The reality is there are no verbal or VUDO secrets except in high profile Racing Teams and only a physical head can be digitized to copy so retailers and suppliers should not fear copy right loss allowing you direct contact with their machinists? A bygone conclusion for many old timers like myself is the part retailers or suppliers do not have the technical level, training or experience to thoroughly and with none bias answer all you questions anyway?
Good luck to all and do not let anyone detour you from getting either a CNC or Hand Ported head for your MINI.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,836
Likes: 6
From: North Denver Colorado
Ask and you shal recive! This is off of MYNES green car before the Sprintex. The Same car now, with the same head and different S/C plus E85 now puts down close to 280HP On a Mustang dyno.
Nice plot, but it looks like its doing more up high than down low....
There are also dyno charts on minitorque as a lot of the UK guys run a Thumper head with great results.
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Chandler AZ
If you are purchasing through a supplier or retailer ask for the name of the machine shop doing the work and try to talk to them directly. Stay away from retailers that will not allow the trust to you as their customer or prospective customer to talk directly their supplying Machine shop for most of your questions.
Way- I know you must have dumped a lot of money into development and you run one of the best Mini performance shops but when you have lots of projects on your plate in addition to development sometimes things slip though and if i was going to be dropping 1000$+ i wanted a head built by a head guy.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 89
Likes: 1
From: Where ever the Militay puts me
FYI I have a head guy that does all the work for me, I'd be crazy and a liar if I said I sat in the back of the shop and did ground on heads. I worked with an old friend of mine to develop my head cause I needed something that made big power and was reliable, something I couldn't find in available heads. Our heads have also won big races, but that is only marketing and is different than something we would put on a street car. The downside is our head is expensive and not very profitable.
-Davis
1st Gear
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
does anyone uses the BV head from cosworth? it happens that i bough one from M7 2 and a half years ago and it still in the box, never used because I moved abroad with my job. I am thinking to use it together with the sprintex supercharger,,, any opinions? will this head match with the sprintex?
5th Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
From: San Juan, PR
I don't think I've ever seen a dyno result from a Cosworth BV, although I know of several people that have them installed. Would be curious to see how they perform, that is a big name in engines. Too bad they don't make them anymore.
Anyhow, as related to the OP, the Sprintex should fit to any head arrangement. If it works well or not, you might just want to ask the Sprintex distributors/manufacturers to see what's the best fit. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. It looks like M7 is now somehow involved with the Sprintex, at least with fitting it to the automatic. Call them and see what they say, they sold you the head right?
Anyhow, as related to the OP, the Sprintex should fit to any head arrangement. If it works well or not, you might just want to ask the Sprintex distributors/manufacturers to see what's the best fit. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. It looks like M7 is now somehow involved with the Sprintex, at least with fitting it to the automatic. Call them and see what they say, they sold you the head right?
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,836
Likes: 6
From: North Denver Colorado
With the amount of air that the Sprintex flows, the BV heads might end up being a better match than the small valve heads. Mynes test car the green machiene has a TPR1 small valve on it now, with a Mega Mini cam, and the results speak for themselves.
With the BV heads, most of them have a poor low to mid range powerband, The Sprintex seems to put a nice big lump of power and torque in the mid range when used with the stock head(or other small valve heads), especially with the 64mm pulley. It might be enough to fill the void in the powerband that the BV heads create, and work wonders for the overall performance.
I personally am going to a BV TPR2 head and big high RPM cam (NS2) in my motor build. I loved the way the car would pull on the setup I had before the rod bearing crapped out, and I'm figguring on loosing a little bit of the power before 4000RPM, but I will gain a whole lot more up top, making the car easyer to drive. Hope that helps.
With the BV heads, most of them have a poor low to mid range powerband, The Sprintex seems to put a nice big lump of power and torque in the mid range when used with the stock head(or other small valve heads), especially with the 64mm pulley. It might be enough to fill the void in the powerband that the BV heads create, and work wonders for the overall performance.
I personally am going to a BV TPR2 head and big high RPM cam (NS2) in my motor build. I loved the way the car would pull on the setup I had before the rod bearing crapped out, and I'm figguring on loosing a little bit of the power before 4000RPM, but I will gain a whole lot more up top, making the car easyer to drive. Hope that helps.
Hey everyone, so i'm going to install a TPR2 head and RMW Cam next wednesday and then bring it to Jan to have it tuned. I will post the dyno sheet on here once I get it up to Jan, but until then i will post my initial reactions of how a TPR2 head/RMW Cam combo feels with my butt dyno.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,097
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville, TN
Hey everyone, so i'm going to install a TPR2 head and RMW Cam next wednesday and then bring it to Jan to have it tuned. I will post the dyno sheet on here once I get it up to Jan, but until then i will post my initial reactions of how a TPR2 head/RMW Cam combo feels with my butt dyno.
Cool.