Some courses are so tight that it feels like I should downshift to first. But it doesn't seem to want to go there unless I force it, and I don't want to do that. In fact, my husband once tried to make a quick downshift and he almost accidently put it in reverse. Usually, i just keep it in 2nd even if it means Im a little slower.

Does anyone here successfully downshift to first? Can you offer any hints? Rev matching seems to work well for other gears, but not so much for 1st.

 

You first sentence read 'Some courses are so tight....' I was thinking you must be talking about a videogame or a race track.

I downshift to 1st from 2nd sometimes at a stoplight with great success.

 

I'll do it on occasion, but it almost takes more time to match and I mean match not come close to matching. And I'll only do it from 2nd to prevent that risk of going into reverse, so IMO I think its probably better to just stay in second, esp. on the roadways.

 

I probably didn't make myself clear. I am asking about downshifting while on an autocross course, not on the street. I posted this in the G Stock forum, but most people (myself included) just click on the new posts and respond to any that peak their interest. Sorry for the mixup

 

I caught this was for Autocross, but I realized that many other would click on the thread, the course is the only place I'd say to do it and for it to be worth it you have to be both really comfortable and precise if it is going to save you time.

 

I basically never downshift during an autocross, unless it's on the rare ocassion that I'm in 3rd gear and going down to 2nd - which is basically "never" in my long-legged Mini. My old CRX was in 3rd fairly often.

Most of the time for most people, it's better to leave it in 2nd. Unless you have reason to beleive that you're one heck of a driver, leave it 2nd and focus on getting back on the gas sooner. The little bit of extra accelaration that you'd get from being in 1st gear is typically not worth the time it takes to make the shift, and accompaning wheelspin.

 

Good question. Downshifting with regularity for autocross would be considered an advanced skill. I've asked the fastest driver in our region about downshifting and he does it whenever there is a really tight turn and slow exit speeds.

The problem is you risk loosing time with a mis-shift or by miss timing your shift. So this is where judgement and skill plays a role in getting it just right to make it worth the extra effort.

Probably the best thing to do is if you have fun runs at the end of the day you can try to down shift and see if your times are any better than when you didn't down shift.

The answer is you can downshift but you'd have to be going slower than about 20 mph. After autocrossing two seasons with 11 events per year and two all day test and tune events I am beginning to try regular downshifting. I would say that the results are good but you will need to practice. You don't have to slow too far but enough not to over rev your engine and typically you want to downshift and be in gear as you pass the apex of the turn so that you can accelerate hard (with wheels straight or nearly so).

If you find you are loosing traction and spinning your wheels then this isn't good. I have a quaife LSD and don't spin. If you have the newer lower geared MCS then you might not need to downshift. I have an '03 MCS so my gears are rather tall and I almost never make it to third (about 70mph!).

 

I have on occassion (rarely!) downshifted to first when AXing my 2000 911, but in this case 1st is good to around 42 mph and rotates quickly under power, so its viable. Having just gotten my MCS and as I have yet to AX it (two weeks to Evo!) its hard for me to imagine that going to 1st in an MCS is ever worth very much (at least 05/06 gearing), but as yet I don't have any AX experience in it. An important point to remember is that it not only takes time to downshift, it also takes time to shift back to second as well and during that time acceleration is interupted. Equally, there might not be any good place to downshift or upshift without upsetting the car, so again a downshift to 1st might not be wise. A further issue might be that if you don't have LSD, in a really tight corner you might not be able to put the power down anyway.

I'd ask you a question. Is it that there are a lot of cones that absolutely force a path that is so tight that you have little decision making with regards to the line choce on corner entry? If so, then perhaps a shift might be in order. OTOH, if you're 'crabbing' or being fooled into taking a tighter line than is necessary and the car is bogging, this might be a clue to adjust your approach to the corner in question and try to take a wider line to maintain more speed and thus not be forced to downshift.

 

For me, I feel Its worth it for turns of 180 degree's or more that are very tight and slow for enough time to smoothly shift down. I don't think I have ever gone to 1st at a National event since the courses are generally designed without really really tight turn arounds or crossover circles like I have seen at some local events and the Evo phase 1 course. At San Diego for the Evo phase 1, I went back to 1st after the starting slalom, I left it in 1st for the rest of the course until the finishing sprint where i went to 2nd. I was consistently .5-.7 faster on this 23 second course by going to 1st as opposed to staying in 2nd for the whole course. This is one course where it was real clear that the downshift was a benefit. I was using it as more of a warmup than a true class, so, I would recommend any newbies to just listen to the instructor and soak in all you can about the class rather than worrying about time and going back to 1st gear since its easy to lose concentration while downshifting. :-)

 

I also use 1st for tight 180's, like pin turns, and for some tight 90's if the course setup won't let me get a good entry line to keep the speed up. Prior to having the Quaife installed, I used 1st less often, mainly just in pin turns or other situations were the speeds were very low and the steering could be straightened out pretty quickly. Spinning tires wasn't very productive.

With the improved grip, 1st is more useable but still fairly rare. If you have a newer car with the shorter gearing, the need to go back to first probably gets rarer still. Of course those are the same cars that SHOULD have the factory LSD, thus improving the usefulness of 1st.

I don't recommend trying a downshift for garages (Chicago boxes), tighter slaloms, or anywhere else that will also require precise steering control during the downshift. Too risky.



FYI, I have no problem getting cleanly back into 1st at any speed below about 30mph.

Scott
90SM

 

First off, I'm shocked people have any trouble putting the MCS or MC in 1st gear. I've put both cars into first gear without trouble at their 1st gear REDLINES. This car goes into first gear easier than any I've ever driven.

That said, something that hasn't been mentioned is the ability to modulate the throttle in 1st gear. The downshift is pointless if you're going to come out of the turn spinning the wheels a ton. Sometimes, even if 2nd is too slow, it will be better because you won't loose your acelleration grip. Once grip is lost, you have to slow down to get it back (that applies to understeering as well). Anytime you loose grip in an autocross, you loose time.

Unless it's an incredibly slow turn or you have good grip on exit and a great right foot (with that aweful tip-in on the throttle), I would never bother downshifting to first.
But, if you plan on doing in, practice heel/toe in everyday driving, make it natural. I did it in my F250, my MINI, and the family car, EVERY downshift.

Brian

 

Haha, I saw "F" and "3 digits" and assumed it was F125, and I'm thinking, "how the hell do you heel and toe a shifter kart???"

 

There's a very good reason why I can't put it into 1st: Lack of driver skill.

Very good points everyone. I suppose I am at a little bit of an advantage regarding this issue with my 2005 MINI's lower gearing, but a disadvantage because of its lack of LSD. I think until I master the heel-toe shift, I'll stick to 2nd gear.

I've only autoxed for a year, and in my 10-12 events, I only remember one course in which I was going so slow that I felt I needed to downshift. Good point, rjmann, on the maintaining momentum thing and perhaps taking a turn wider to maintain speed. In most cases, that's a very viable option.

Thanks everyone!

 

We've got one region near us that often includes a tight 180° + pivot cone into their course designs. I'll sometimes downshift into 1st gear on courses like that, but don't make a habit of it unless I've got some really close competition or there is a points race at stake.

 

I agree with most here. First gear downshifts are a rarety. I've been on a couple of courses where the pin turn exited onto a slight uphill. There isn't much torque down low in the MINI. I will downshift in this situatiuon. Most of the time it is a tradeoff and the wheelspin in first is hard to control.

 

I agree with sprcpr,

If you downshift to first, it is really hard to avoid wheel spin coming out of the turn,

I usually stay in second gear and try to carry more speed thru the turn, I also use the brakes to rotate the car

Victor

 

I can't comment on your need to grab first, which obviously depends on the circumstances.

However as to the ability, it's worth noting that the proportional gap between gears on most cars (I'm too lazy to look it up for the MCS) gets larger as you go to the lower gears. So even when making a double-clutch downshift you'll have to be more aggressive with the throttle blip when going from 2nd to 1st than from 3rd to 2nd.

Neil
05 MCS
96 M3

 

We have some small lots here and some courses in those lots have a tight turn that starts into a slower section of the course up to the finish. Two events like this last year had almost the same course. The first event I didn't down shift and did not finish well. The second event I downshifted and stayed in first till the end and topped the index. This is the only event I downshifted at, usually it takes too much time. There was one course that was so tight I ran it in first. I have an '04 and first is pretty tall.

Anyways, if you left foot brake, you can keep the revs up and stay in second without being bogged down. Left foot braking is a little easier to pick up than heel toe shifting, in my opinion.