Mini won't turnover
 

Here's the story......

Drove the car 2 weekends ago and had no issues. Only thing different was that it was the first time that I drove the car in the evening and I did use the headlights for the first time.

Went to move the car and it won't even turnover. Ignition lights does come on and when I turn the key to the start position I get a click (actually more a solid thunk) noise and the car does not turnover. I turned on the headlights and tried to start again and the lights dimmed - which to me indicates that I am loading the battery. I charged the battery and there is no change. I took the battery to 2 auto parts places and both reported 100% healthy battery with 76% charge. I charged the battery fully and put it back in and no difference.

I have put the car in gear and rocked it to see if the started was engaged and stuck and it does not appear to be that way. I have checked the wiring since I just finished the car a few weeks ago and everything looks in order.

The new battery negative cable is tight to the boot and the new engine ground strap is tight as well. I have a manual battery cutoff/quick disconnect installed on the negative terminal on the battery and it is tight.

The started solenoid is new and makes a solid clunk when the key is turned. I tried to jump a wire a wire across the solenoid and it practically melted in my hand - probably should have used a screw driver or heavier wire - had a "dumb" moment. I put my electrical meter on the positive battery wire and I read 12 volts to the engine strap. I put the meter on the started cable terminal on the solenoid and had my wife try to start the car and I only saw 2 volts or so on the digital meter before some smoke indicated I should shutdown.

The only other noteworthy items are:

• when I initially put the car together and attempted to start the car, it would not run. My troubleshooting quickly indicated that some dumb$%& put the battery in backwards. After fixing that piece of rocket science the car started up
• when I first installed the battery I had some significant sparks when I tried to put on the positive cable. When I disconnected the alternator the problem went away. I installed a new alternator and that issue went away. I surmise that when the engine was cleaned, disassembled and painted the alternator was toasted.

Don't know if something was damaged with the backwards battery? Everything has been fine for that past several weeks. The car started fine the last time and it ran and it ran fine. I am sure the battery is OK. I have not had a chance to take off the started and run it to the auto parts store. I am thinking solenoid, but is new - what is a good way to check it - bridge it with a screwdriver???

I am open to suggestions. I am heading out of town until Sunday afternoon and I hope to get after it again then.

Thanks for any help!

Disconnect the starter high current wire that connects the starter to the starter solenoid. Check the battery voltage between that terminal to ground when the key is in the Start position. It should read full battery voltage (12V-14V). If so then the starter solenoid is not likely a suspect.

Is the starter a new (rebuilt) unit or the one that was in the car when you started the rebuild? It's possible that it has an internal short (or open) preventing it from working. I'm assuming the starter is solidly grounded to the transmission case. If not, you will see similar behavior of what you're seeing.

You indicated you 'let the smoke out' when testing the starter solenoid.(when it read 2V). From where was the smoke coming? Wiring? Starter solenoid? Anything that was smoking is suspect hardware now. Smoke + electrical = bad. If it was the solenoid, it's likely that part of the electromagnet inside the solenoid has fused to something it's not supposed to be fused to. Do you have the original starter solenoid? I know it's not a simple swap, but it may be worth swapping it in to see if the problem disappears.

What happens if you try to jump start the Mini from another car? You say you are confident that the battery is good, but it's easy enough to hook a pair of jumper cables to a working vehicle and see if it starts. Regardless of the outcome, you'll have a datapoint that will help you isolate the problem item(s).

Good luck,
Jeff

One more thing. I had a very similar problem after I got my Mini back from a powertrain rebuild. Turns out the battery clamp used to connect the positive battery cable to the battery was loose, making a mediocre connection (my fault, not the engine builder). I had the same symption - occasional no-crank.

I figured this out by tugging on the positive battery cable at the battery and the cable started pulling out of the terminal end. Tightened it up and haven't had the problem since. This type of problem is somewhat hard to diagnose since low-current circuits work fine but high current circuits can't get the amperage they need to work properly.

Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for the ideas...

I reinstalled the battery this morning so I know the +ve and -ve terminals are tight. I had a similar no start with a loose positive cable when I first got the car - so I understand that loose connections can cause problems.

Before I left home this afternoon I disconnected the manual cutoff/disconnect on the negative terminal and noticed it was a little warm. Struck me as unusual and wondered if maybe I was not getting a good ground. The car was repainted as part of the last year's rebuild.

I will disconnect the starter and check solenoid voltage on the starter side. I am sure the smoke smell is either a result of my meter being across the starter to the engine ground or something happened to my starter solenoid. I have old crud covered one that was working before I took the car apart and I may try it out. I may also pull the starter and run it down to the auto parts store for a test.

The starter is the original one that was on the car. It was not replaced as part of my rebuild. I have not had an issues with it. When I pull the starter I will be able to see if I have stuck gear.

I have not tried jumping the car, but I do have a start setting on my charger/starter and tried it and had no luck.

I will have some things to try out when I get home Sunday afternoon...:thumbsup:

Before I left home this afternoon I disconnected the manual cutoff/disconnect on the negative terminal and noticed it was a little warm. Struck me as unusual and wondered if maybe I was not getting a good ground. The car was repainted as part of the last year's rebuild.

I'd check that the end of the neg strap on the body is making clean metal to metal contact. Grind the coating off to a shiney spot there and be sure there's no rust on the strap end.

I will disconnect the starter and check solenoid voltage on the starter side. I am sure the smoke smell is either a result of my meter being across the starter to the engine ground or something happened to my starter solenoid. I have old crud covered one that was working before I took the car apart and I may try it out. I may also pull the starter and run it down to the auto parts store for a test.

The starter is the original one that was on the car. It was not replaced as part of my rebuild. I have not had an issues with it. When I pull the starter I will be able to see if I have stuck gear.

I have not tried jumping the car, but I do have a start setting on my charger/starter and tried it and had no luck.

I'd take that starter and put the NEG of your power box to the block and then VERY CAREFULLY (ENSURE you are in neutral and the wheels blocked) touch the positive to the starter. Does it spin? This is the same as the bench test....you could pull the starter and clamp it in a vice and do the same thing. - to the housing and then touch the power lead.

I'd also try bump starting to confirm everything else is OK

p.s. did you double check the block's grounding strap? The one that typically runs along the engine stabilizer on the clutch end? When I had a problem like this I found this strap attached to the bottom of the bolt at the chas' end and that bolt/nut had come loose. Sometimes the ground was good...sometimes not. Without this ground you don't have a complete circuit for the starter.... My intermittent starting problem went away when I discovered this hidden loose nut..... Check both ends of that strap. (assumes the starter tests good otherwise)

Very simple test, hook an old headlight (verify that it works) up to the starter wiring, hit the key. Nice bright light you have starter issues, really dim or no light you have wiring issues.

You could also try to tap on the starter with a rubber mallet and see if this works. Starters sometimes get a dead spot in the windings or a loose bearing which will cause the motor to get stuck. Even tap while someone else is turning the key.

Here's the update and thanks for all the suggestions......

1. Battery has been tested at 2 auto shops at 76% charge and 100% health. I charged it up and re-installed my "known good" battery and car symptoms are the same.
2. Checked both the ground strap at the battery earth and both ends of the engine ground strap and everything is still tight with good connection. Since everything worked before and grounds are tight and nothing has loosened in my initial test drives then I am assuming that I have good grounds - no change with the car. I am going to take an external wire with my electrical meter and see what resistance levels I get from engine ground back to the battery earth strap.
3. I have rocked the car and hit the starter with a rubber mallet to insure that my gear was not stuck and neither made a difference.
4. Removed starter lead from the solenoid and when key is turned to start position I get 12V at the starter solenoid terminal - so at this point I am assuming that my starter solenoid is operational. It is a new part - other than my "letting the smoke out" - but I am not sure where that came from....
5. Checked all solenoid connections - they are tight.
6. With reasonable assurance - at least as reasonable as one can be with a Lucas based British car - I am operating under the assumption that I do not have a wiring issue. When I turn the key to start with a known good battery and the headlights are on - they dim significantly indicating that I am applying an electrical load to the system and with the starter solenoid working my basis is that the starter is providing that load.
7. I removed the starter this morning and visit the local auto parts store. Autozone told me that they have to enter a part number into the computer in order to test the starter. Of course there is no Mini in the system and the Lucas part number provided no references. I moved on to another local store that is now under the O'Reilly umbrella. They cross-referenced the Lucas part number to an O'Reilly number on the first try so we head back to the tester thinking I would have an answer really soon. Now we find the tester's computer does not have that O'Reilly part number in it. The guy behind the counter told me go to Plan B - a battery, jumper cables and a foot on the starter.
8. Back at home, I disconnected my battery and took a pair of jumper cables, attached the ground to the case and insuring that I had good connection - I touched the positive to both the starter lead and the actual lead connection on the starter itself (to rule out a bad cable) and got nothing out of the starter but a little sparking action where I was touching my lead.
9. My flywheel teeth look good, there is some wear on the starter gear - not surprising and all on the edge that first engages the flywheel. The starter rotates fine by hand via the protruding shaft on the rear and the gear system moves along the shaft as it should.

I guess its time to invest in a new starter and while I am at it, a new wire to the starter solenoid.

Before I place my order - anything I might have missed???? :confused:

Now for my other question.... Car started fine the last time I ran it and now the starter appears to be bad. I have tried rotating the starter to another position thinking perhaps there was a bad spot. I guess it was just its time to move on :cry:

Regarding the starter - an obvious but potentially overlooked step is to push-start the car. This will allow you to verify that everything works fine with the starter out of the picture. It shouldn't be too hard to push start the car in 2nd or 3rd gear with a friend or two.

Jeff

Jeff,

Live close to Michigan - looking for some pushers :) My wife and mother-in-law didn't seem very enthused about pushing the car! Since I'm also chasing a brake line leak, I probably won't have a chance to try pushing it down the street.....

COME ON didn't I suggest a 'bump start' a couple of posts ago???? :razz:

Sorry if you don't know the term. Heck you should be able to build up enuf speed yourself pushing in neutral to be able to jump in and pop the clutch in second..... Else you had a better car than my first was!

It sounds like your starter is toast and your mistake if I can use that word was going to today's auto parts store. Look in the yellow pages for Automobine Electrical Service .... hopefully one that's been around a while ... old school guys don't need computers to test starters. Sounds like your's burned up. When you hit the leads from a battery it should JUMP. A local auto electric shop should/could probably rebuild it and should at a minimum be able to confirm that as the problem.

If you decide to buy new vs rebuild consider one of the Japanese conversions that can provide significantly more UGH ... Here's a "maybe" on how the starter burned up (winding or brushes burned). A rebuilt engine can be very tight and require more UGH to turn over. You starter may have just thrown in the towel as to the increased resistance and therefore the modern replacement providing more UGH

available from many sources but for reference
http://www.minimania.com/web/item/C-.../InvDetail.cfm

New starter arrived and Nigel is alive :thumbsup:

The new starter has a M90 ---- 12V and the old one has M35J ---- 12V on it. The housing and mounting is identical. The other Lucas number is also different. My original starter had a 79 stamped on it - not sure if this is part of the date code for a 1979. the new one has 86 on it. There is no core return for this unit and it is the only inertia starter listed on Moss Motors. the car starts fine now. All I can think of is that this unit might be a different amperage for starting???

Thoughts anyone? Couldn't find anything searching around.

Thanks for all the advice......

Maybe the old starter's brushes were broken or spent. Glad to hear your Mini is back on the road :thumbsup:

Jeff

With no core requirement on the new starter -- even though there was a core I got an email saying to keep my old starter with no price change -- I can take apart the old starter and perhaps fix what I have or help another Mini owner.....

I'd look for the old school starter repair place but concur you may be able to build yourself a spare.

Out of curiosity does the starter look the same? Especially the starter gear?

Everything is identical. 9-tooth gear, housing, configuration, mounting holes, etc.

Now that we have the OPs issue straightened out, would you all be so kind to consider my situation?

My Mini has been sitting a few weeks (inside) and I've tried to start it a couple of times and it's not turning over.

What's different about my situation is that the car cranks like a mo-fo and will continue to crank as long as I hold the key at start (I only held it about 3 -5 seconds). Doesn't sound like a power problem to me.

Thoughts?

Since it's cranking, all that is needed for it to fire is a little fuel and some air to be compressed and lit off by a spark at the right time.

To confirm a fuel problem, spray a little starting fluid into carb air intake before cranking and if it now starts and runs a few seconds, you know your problem is fuel. For this, a check of fuel pump/filter for delivery of clean fuel and then often for engines that have been 'sitting' internal carburater cleaning would be needed.

If there is no change with 'Starting Fluid' then it could be spark, you should remove and observe condition of spark plugs, then with them grounded, crank and you should see nice blue sparking. Since it was running before it was sitting, the timing should not have changed, but if it did, then camshaft timing may be off as well.

You mention "...cranks like a mo-fo..." are you saying it cranks unusually fast? This could indicate cam-time is off and low or no compression.

With all plugs out and throttle wide open, screw a compression gauge into one spark-plug hole at a time and crank 3 seconds, Service Manual should give a value to look for, but over 100 should run, more critical would be the difference between the cylinders.

STLMINI,

I am assuming that "cranking like a mo-fo" means that it cranks well/normally. Since you are turning the engine over, pilotart is right on the $ with his comments.

You can ground a plug on the block to check spark. If you have no spark you will have to go back and check coil -> distributor -> plug wires -> plugs. You can check voltage at your coil with a meter. Checking a plug for park will tell you quickly if it is electrical or fuel related. Are you running a standard distributor or have you upgraded to electronic ignition replacing the points/etc. in the carb. So much less to be concerned about and it is an easy upgrade!

Before I redid my car I used to have to crank for sometimes 10-15 seconds for it fire. With new fuel lines and carb clean it fires within a few seconds. I have never tried the starting fluid approach that pilotart suggests, but would also rule out electrical issues with out having to do a lot of work.

Let us know how you make out.....

never mess with the fuel system b4

your are sure the electrics are 100%

a coil or points wear out a LOT faster then do a fuel line....

Lucas "Prince of Darkness" - forever a wild car on a Mini.......:eek2:

i had a similiar problem with my mini.....it turned out i had moisture in the distributor cap and the cap had corrosion on the electrodes causing no spark to the plugs. hope this helps