Yesterday I had to take my 2005 Cooper S in for service. Let me put it this way: I have not been impressed with the new turbo'd Cooper S, waaay too much torque steer for me; if I want that, I'll go buy a 1990s Acura Integra. My SA said at least 2-3 people have returned their S's over the last few months because they could not deal with the TS.

However, yesterday I got a new Cooper loaner and I must say it is a quantum (as adjective) improvement over the previous gen Cooper! Even in automatic trans form, I found the new model much quicker, quieter, more refined, and simply a blast to drive--and no TS, obviously--while getting around 35 mpg mixed street/freeway driving. It just screamed quality and refinement, unlike the Cooper loaners Ive driven over the past 3 years, esp. those with CVTs

Then, across the lot, I see my first 1-series Bimmer, a twin-turbo 135i with sport seats to die for, 300 hp, 300 lb/ft of torque from 1400-5200 rpm, and RWD. Sweet. Can I get this as a loaner??

 

You can get rid of much of the "torque steer" in your `05 with $50 worth of OEM parts and a 15-minute install. Try this thread: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=100375

 

Exactly why I own one...

 

A quantum is usually the smallest detectable amount of something. It's often used to mean a measureable difference, without regard to the size of the measurable difference. For what it's worth, you can have a quantum improvement that is important or not.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.....

Matt

 

A "quantum improvement" could also mean that the improvement is relative to the perspective of the observer, a la Schrodinger's Cat.

My impression of both of the R56 variants is that they both display an appreciable improvement in day to day livability over their R50 or R53 brethren at the sacrifice of a bit of visceral/raw "Woohoo!" effect, but that's just my opinion.

 

I hardly ever notice the torque steer and my foot is not made of feathers.

Have you driven the r56 S?

 

There is no hiding the torque steer, but anything that makes my girlfriend look like this is good in my book!

(keep your comments to yourselves )

 

this is what I meant in my OP. to clarify tho--and to keep vocab-heads from crappin their britches--howzaboot "HUGE" improvement over old???

as far as TS in my R53, it just doesnt have the low-end torque that R56 has, so it's no huge deal. I only feel it when I stomp down, and it's mild, nowhere as near as jumpy as R56.

And yes I have driven R56. 2 words: needs AWD.

 

I love this place. I was going to post this very same thing. My best friend is a physicist and ******* endlessly when someone says 'quantum' whatever meaning 'huge'

 

Woohoo....I probably haven't heard this term since college. It's not like it can be slipped into everyday conversation, "Hey babe, have you seen my Schrödinger?"

Back on topic, torque steer can be mitigated somewhat with a lowered set up and/or larger wheels where rotational inertia would be higher.

 

Yep, those 2 items plus lighter wheels made a noticeable improvement for me.

 

common usage has morphed more to be a discontinuous shift. Another one that gets me is "exponential" used to mean very rapid increase.... Exponents less than one would be actually be a reduction..... What they are really talking about (usually) is more correctly called "geometric growth"

Matt

 

why, all of a sudden, am I craving eggs.... ??

 

To me it's just part of the fun driving this car. I can say it can be challenging while accelerating through a curve and hitting a bump....the car becomes a little unbalanced, but when you know it it's not a big problem.

 

This came up randomly in conversation with my wife the other day. I can't recall the context. As often is the case, she thought I was crazy.

I thought Schrodinger's cat dispelled the notion of the relativity of the observer's perspective.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat

Two things in physics really were mind-f*cks:
Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

I pity the cat....

Matt

 

As a chemist by trade I was doing my best not to jump on the vocab lesson bandwagon, but I failed. Describing something as "increasing exponentially" means a very rapid increase. An exponential curve does just that, it increases very suddenly. No one speaks in terms of exponents <1...that's just funny.

And yes, quantum typically refers to small. Quantum mechanics is the study of the theory of the mechanics of atoms, molecules, and other physical systems that are subject to the uncertainty principle.....or SMALL things.

Now that I can relax...GO MINI!

 

I do agree, the Cooper really benefitted from the R56 change in a big way. Improved low-end torque is probably the most noticable benefit....combine that with startling fuel economy and that nice 6th gear for highway cruising, and all the little bits of functional refinement. I find R56 to be just as much fun to drive as R50, albeit in a different way...two flavors of "great" if you will. I also think R56's grill and front end design is quite nice as it is a cleaner, more direct look which is most welcome, especially given the overall more aggressive stance of the car. To me the car excels at being what a Cooper should be a very capable, yet practical MINI. That it subtly exceeds all expectation in real-world driving is pretty mind-numbing.

 

Granted, the R56S does exhibit some torque steer, a common phenomenon in powerful FWD cars. In my experience, torque steer is less pronounced in an MCS equipped with LSD than with an open differential (Others may beg to differ) . In any case, the MCS's torque steer is predictable and easily manageable, far less dramatic than what I have experienced with a variety of Japanese FWD cars. IMHO, torque steer is highly over-rated as a shortcoming of the R56S. It's more a niggling nit to pick than a serious defect, and certainly would not stop me from buying this endlessly entertaining car.

 

I have seen a positively exponential growth in picky threads over quantum issues. In fact, I have wrotten a lot of them. Time to go hidebernate.

Plus, anyone who does not find much torque steer in the R56 MCS is either in denial, a coma, or drives like an old lady.

 

+1

This is my first ever front wheel drive car. The first time I left a corner hard under acceleration, I felt the TS and recovered quickly. Now that I know to expect it, and when, it is no issue at all.

As a comparison, it is nearly the same feeling to me as sliding the rear end of my old Super Stock racing motorcycle. It is surprising the first time it happens, but once you get the hang of it, it is barely noticeable.

 

To repeat what I said in another thread (and to recognize again how much Mini enthusiasts are willing to excuse), if the S had any more torque steer, it would drive up it's own ***. The torque steer in this thing is nuts, especially for a car known for its great handling.

 

While I may fall under the catagory of "enthusiast", I do not fall under the "willing to excuse" catagory.

The TS in this car is not THAT bad. I was reading about it and reading about it, and I was thinking, "crap, why didn't I get the LSD"? I get the car, hit the sport button, get it into a corner and romp on it. I felt the TS, and I compensated for it immediately.

"drive up it's own *ss"?? Hardly.

Again, I don't know what car you are driving, but mine doesn't exhibit enough TS to even begin to uncork that bottle of "whine".

But hey, that is JMO.

 

How are people defining "torque steer"?

In my mind, torque steer means when you stomp on the gas, the car tries to turn. It has nothing to do with being in a turn and stomping on the gas.

I can have my R56 MCS in low second gear going straight, take my hands off the wheel, and stomp on the gas - and the car continues to go straight. In my mind, that means no torque steer.

Stomping on the gas in a corner does make life interesting.

Accelerating hard and turning the wheel (like to make a pass on a 2-lane road) is also interesting.

But... are those "torque steer"? or is it just the front end of the car getting light under acceleration?

 

this is exactly how I feel, and why I find R56 (and Clubman S) pretty much not my driveability cup of tea. Even previous gen JCWs, or any S2 or S3 modded S's, dont have this level of TS.

I also demo'd a Clubman S with the LSD and while it seemed a little less torquey-steery (dont have a fit vocabheads) it was still pretty bad.

I'll say it again: this new turbo powerplant needs to be teamed w/AWD to fully unleash the car's potential.