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Ok yesterday was my first track day in the Mini. I was on Buttonwillow, configuration #13 CW...not the worst track/config on brakes but it was still pretty hard. And well...I'm even harder on them as I'm quite a LATE braker.
Anyway, I have Motul RBF 600, and Carbotech XP10's up front XP8's on the back. I bought them for the track day, I did not put on new rotors nor did I turn my stock rotors, I know that it is recommended but I wasn't going to turn the already really thin stock rotors. I figured these pads would be enough for me, well it turns out that wasn't quite the case. I went through 50% or more of these pads in one track day! Talking to Jeff at TSW I hear that is normal, I also scored the rotor surface pretty bad, I'll have pictures up later. Long story short the stock brakes just can't hold up to the kind of work I demand of them on the track. Track pads or not.
As you can see I already have a few TSW things on my car and I really respect the guys over there, and I SURE Jeff knows my voice by now . They really do test everything before the put it on the market to make sure that it works and holds up. I have not actually purchased anything from Detroit tuned yet, but the guys over there also seem very knowledgable and friendly. I have called both vendors and talked to them about there kits and I will point out what they mentioned later in this thread. I'd also like to thank them for spending their time and talking to me...I start this thread to get NAM's opinion as I have a few months before I buy. Feel free to chime in TSW and DT!
The Kits:
Both kits use the same Outlaw 2000 caliper, which both use the same 4" stock car pads. They both now have custom hats so only rotor surfaces would need replacing, they both have custom brackets which make everything fit painlessly, both come with stainless front lines and a set of pads, both cost about the same price. The only REAL differnce is the rotors. FYI I have R99's and plan to stay with a 17" wheel.
The Rotors:
The Detroit tuned comes with a 12.8" x 1.2" slotted zinc plated rotor. The TSW comes with a 11.75" x 1.25" lightweight Coleman rotor. Both are directionally vented. The Detroit tuned weighs in at 14.5 lbs for hat/rotor, TSW weighs in at 12.5 lbs hat/rotor. My only real concern is to get a kit that can and will hold up to extreme abuse...lets just say that I want this to be able to hold up to a 24 hr Le Mans race! I will only do ~ 3-4 track days a year and I would like to not change rotors at all within at least 2 yrs. Both vendors said that was very reasonable especially since I would be changing to proper pads for track use.
TSW:
Here was TSW's take, their kit out performs R-compounds, tires really are the limit of your braking ability. If the TSW kit provides more braking then the R-comps can handle and is nearly cool to touch when coming into the pits how much better can it get? In their opinion the extra inch of diameter is simply extra weight, and extra sprung/rotational mass at that so 2 lbs. per corner makes a difference. Also TSW made their kit with 15" wheels in mind, they went as big as they could to still fit the 15's.
DT:
Detroit tuned feels that the extra inch helps in braking torque. This is a simple law of physics a longer moment arm will provide a greater force. Thus the bigger rotor can provide more braking power even though they are both using the same caliper/pad. Also that the extra 2 lbs of mass or 4 lbs total difference is something that might be noticed but may provide more benifits then negatives. If you must have more mass anywhere the brakes is probably one of the better places to have it. More mass = more ability to hold heat more ability to pull heat from pads and rotor friction surface, thus keeping brakes cooler, and the greater surface area = more area for air to cool the brakes down. Thus theoretically keeping the brakes cooler.
What it boils down to:
But if the 11.75 already does the job perfectly is there really a reason to go bigger? What are peoples experiences? Has anybody had both? Comments from people that have tracked both...how do they hold up? Is there ANY fade? There shouldn't be. Rotor life, pad life, how hot do the brakes feel when you pit. Etc ANY negatives at all (besides the initial empty wallet ) Thanks for everybodies help, and thanks again to TSW and DT...this post is in no offense to either of you. You both provide great info, and both your kits really are great IMO lets get others opinions.
I can't really comment about anything but our brake kit - it's still the biggest, baddest, lightest setup that fits under a 15" wheel.
Dr. Mike killed his old BBK at Buttonwillow, the exact track you were running, which is why the BDM came about... He's had no problems since. So, not only was the kit designed to work insanely well, it came about because of the exact track you were running!
The only other items I can mention is that we supply aircraft hardware (no need for safety wiring!), top quality hardware elsewhere, metal locking nuts, and hard anodized calipers, hats and dog-bones that don't discolor. It's been track tested by us and our most hardcore track junkie customers at every regional track here in Texas (Texas World, Eagles Canyon, Motorsports Ranch Cresson and Houston) and a myriad of tracks around the country - VIR, Road Atlanta, Barber, Lime Rock, Watkins Glen, Streets of Willow, Buttonwillow, Spring Mountain to name a few.
In our opinion, there's simply no need for a bigger rotor - and especially no need to carry around all the extra weight that comes with it unless you just want bling... Lighter = faster.
We also just dropped the price $100 as we're releasing two new BBK's and the manufacturing volume helped drop our costs. It's now just $1250.
I'll be staying tuned to this thread. Maybe it should be moved to the proper forum?
mb
Doh! I forgot about the tires/wheels/brakes forum. I was contemplating between suspension, and road race forums...but since the suspension was much more traveled I put it there. Thanks for putting it where it belongs.
I'll be staying tuned as well. Jeff, it sounds like your guys kit really has held up to some tough tracks! What times was Dr. Mike running at Buttonwillow? Was it Config #13 CW? I know config #18 is MUCH harder on brakes, but its a very HIGH speed config, a Mini would hit 130+ easily in that config. But #13 is still quite hard on them as there are quite a few 105-60 points without much cooling in between.
I think it comes down to wheel size more than "who's kit is better".
If both are now two piece the rotor weights will be similar and replacements from the manufacture or from Coleman directly as they'd be your only source for such items. Both castings will cost roughly the same amount of money depending upon the level of casting used for each. (there are some less than others but assuming both use one of the heavier base parts it's a wash)
The wider rotor offers the best of both worlds for capitalizing on what can be done with a smaller fit application. The larger rotor capitalizes on the value of increased swept area and that leverage statement. Note however that while the larger part adds rotor torque it's balanced against a need for less clamping pressure whereas the smaller rotor needs greater clamping force to achieve the same final rotor torque value (pad values being similar). In the big scheme of this the smaller kit will stress the caliper far more than the larger one. Both calipers in this application are working pretty much at their design limits for such a part on a car of this weight at the derived load rating (g or mass) so again here the larger kit is less stressed. (these values can be roughly viewed in part by bridge area) Comparing from my world it's a Dynalite so I'm familiar with its workings pros and cons.
On the flip side the wider rotor has the potential to run as cool or cooler based upon the fact that it likely has a wider air gap. (again some casting are different so without that info it remains a bit speculative, but few know the castings better than I do) The wider air gap can flow more air than the thinner one used on some particular castings. The 1.200 casting will net a good balance of air gap to rotor wall. The 1.25 (there are a number) can do the same. Lower weight (and rotating) is certainly critical. But then the larger size will simply function more efficiently than the smaller one by providing the same rotor torque with less stresses on the parts. Simply put; the larger the parts the lower the duty cycle.
In the end is one "better than the other"? It comes down to the wheel size, more than parts. both will be superior to your current oem parts. You may want to review your plans for wheels and tires first and monitor what spacing needs are required from one kit to the other as again; both will have pros and cons there also.
__________________ TCE Your one stop...for Wilwood brakes.
It's what works best for your application, I agree... Our kit looks a bit goofy under 17" wheels, for instance, unlike a bigger diameter rotor - personally, I could care less about this, but not everyone agrees. Under a 15" or 16" wheel, it stuffs it.
I'll see if I can get Dr. Mike to chime in on the configurations he's run - I do know that he was running a NASA TT once, and he ended up taking 2nd to a very well prepped WRX STi by just a tiny bit... He's ended up 2nd to that WRX twice, and plans on rectifying that situation...
I'll see if I can get Dr. Mike to chime in on the configurations he's run - I do know that he was running a NASA TT once, and he ended up taking 2nd to a very well prepped WRX STi by just a tiny bit... He's ended up 2nd to that WRX twice, and plans on rectifying that situation...
Hi guys, sorry I'm late to this. Somehow I just stumbled across this thread.
My typical times at Buttonwillow this year are:
Configuration #13: 2min 15 sec (100 degree ambient air temp)
Configuration #14: 2min 5 sec (90 degree ambient air temp)
Those times are for my "15% pulley-and-software" '03 MCS with crapped-out coilovers, and good 225/45-R15 RA-1 tires.
I have the prototype TSW BBK on my car still, with absolutely no problems. Rather than kill a set of rotors and pads in one track day, I'm now getting multiple track weekends out of the pads, and the rotors have shrugged off everything. These have been completely fade-free, even in 100+ degree heat.
I still need about four seconds to catch that prepped STi on course #14. New suspension might get me halfway there.
Is anyone running any of the 949 Racing 15"x8" 6UL wheels with these brakes?
I'd really like to run these wheels but want a great set of brakes to compliment them. The TSW BDM brake kit (love the 1.25" wide rotors!)sounds just perfect. Just wondering if anyone is running this exact combo.
Is anyone running any of the 949 Racing 15"x8" 6UL wheels with these brakes?
I'd really like to run these wheels but want a great set of brakes to compliment them. The TSW BDM brake kit (love the 1.25" wide rotors!)sounds just perfect. Just wondering if anyone is running this exact combo.
Thanks guys!
Hey Cesare,
Have you printed out both fitment .PDF files from TSW and 949 racing?
I have, and found they weren't going to play well together.
I'm still hoping that my scaling was off, but haven't gone into the garage to dig up a ruler yet to confirm both are at 1:1 size.
I figure like all things in life, it'll end up being "this close" to fitting (seems to be about 5mm shy of clearing).
__________________
2008 Mini Cooper S. 'vert w/auto
"Sneaky Parade Car"
It appears that the 949 6UL wheel (36mm offset) may not fit the BDM. I printed out the template and held it up to my installed BDM, and although it looked at first that it would fit just fine, it looks like an interference fit at the outer corners of the caliper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini_Joe
Hey Cesare,
Have you printed out both fitment .PDF files from TSW and 949 racing?
I have, and found they weren't going to play well together.
I'm still hoping that my scaling was off, but haven't gone into the garage to dig up a ruler yet to confirm both are at 1:1 size.
I figure like all things in life, it'll end up being "this close" to fitting (seems to be about 5mm shy of clearing).
Last edited by drmike@txwerks.com : 11-13-2008 at 08:03 AM.
That is indeed a bummer I guess i'll have to consider using a different 15" wheel.
Thanks for the quick reply's though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmike@txwerks.com
It appears that the 949 6UL wheel (36mm offset) may not fit the BDM. I printed out the template and held it up to my installed BDM, and although it looked at first that it would fit just fine, it looks like an interference fit at the outer corners of the caliper.
Any clue as to what the basic design of the wheel will be (Mesh, six spoke,ect..) ?
Either way, i'm sure many will be eagerly awaiting these big brake friendly 15" "uber" wheels
6 spoke, IIRC... 15x6.5", +38 offset. MSRP should be right around $250 a wheel. We wish they were 15x7's, but those are coming sometime in 2009. FWIW, you can run a 225/50R15 or 225/45R15 on a 15x6.5 with no issues - we do it all the time.
The supplier printed out the BDM template and said it "cleared by at least 3mm at the closest point". Still, we want to hard mount one to make sure, so this'll happen next month!
Todd, thanks for the input all your points make a lot of sense and expand on other things mentioned in this thread. I'm not actually looking to see which is better. I think that both kits are GREAT! I'm just looking for pluses and minuses to each kit. Reasons to go with one over the other. Etc.
Also, I haven't heard a whole lot about the "new" DT kit so any info about people tracking that would be helpful. Also, I forgot about the "Lets talk track brakes" thread...I was just reading through that. I should have made a listen in post in there when I first saw it.
Right now I'm on OEM R99's 17", the DT kit is said to fit in there, I'm sure the TSW would fit as well, if not it would probably only require a minor spacer, no big deal. I do plan on getting some sort of lightweight 17" wheel for some R-Comps. 17" in the wheel size I will stick with.
Gnaster...those do look far from silly! I'm sure with a top view the word would be SERIOUS!
At Eric's request, I'll add my $0.02 to this thread. Having lived with both the DT and TSW kits for a bit, I should be qualified to comment!
I love the DT kit. It has more stopping torque than you really need, and thus can be tuned to your vehicles weight and preferences with the plethora of pads available. As my MM2urbo became lighter over the years, I went from using a Wilwood "H" compound on the track to the "C" compound in order to keep the front wheels from locking up at 110MPH [insert hyper powerful evil over-the-top chuckle here]. The combination of huge torque and massive thermal handling means the DT kit cannot falter.
The TSW kit fit my bill for my current '02 MCS, as I run 16" Hoosiers on the track now. This meant the DT kit was too big. Add in that my MINI weighs only 2290 and the TSW has all the torque my car needs. I'm currently running the ST-43 pad, which is a fantastic pad for the smaller diameter rotor but would be too aggressive on the DT kit.
If I was running 17"+ wheels again, the DT kit would be tempting, especially now that it has a two-piece rotor setup. The only thing that would make the DT kit even more appealing for the racer would be if it ran a standard rotor in the vein of the TSW kit. The fact I can call up Lane Automotive or Jegs or Summit and score just about any rotor brand that I like in a standard 11.75x1.25" with 8x7" pattern is very very convenient, however from a business perspective it does cut out TSW from servicing their own kit. From an endurance racing perspective, the DT kit offers lower impact on the braking system in terms of pedal effort and fluid pressures, however unless you're running massive race tires for a MINI [like a 235/40-17], the TSW kit offers all the torque you'll ever really need. With my Hoosier R6's 205/45-16, I can still overpower the tires with the TSW kit at the end of the straightaway, so it's no wimp.
It's worth mentioning that neither of these kits are designed for 4 season use or grandma approval. They both use the Outlaw 2000 caliper, which has stainless pistons and square seals, but no dust boots. This means that with the harshest salty winters, dirty roads, and repeated pad swapping should yield about 2 years between rebuilds. The caliper also has no anti-rattle mechanism for the pads, meaning you'll probably get some pad clatter over bumps with no brake actuation. I put a dollop of anti-seize on the back of my pads where they contact the pistons and have yet to hear any objectionable noise. The TSW kit does get props for the hard anodizing, which should look good for a long time. I'm not sure what coating DT uses on their new rotor hats, however their calipers use the standard black anodizing, which does fade over the years. Racers won't care, but show car enthusiasts will want to budget to re-finish the DT calipers once the original anodizing fades away.
i would like to add we also also have a 16" kit that is designed for the 16" wheel people, but will also fit any 17" wheel. it has a 13 lb rotor/hat combo that is 11.6 inch. Dia. currently our calipers are anodized, but are working on some slicker coatings. we have found some of the reds have faded, but never the blacks. but we are working on both a gloss red and black that will never fade. we also have in the works a rattle clip to help keep the pads quite, but they are really not that noisy. i only hear them when i go from forward to revers. and in the end the car is loud and totally almost a race car. we also use quality hardware w/locking nuts everywhere. our kit also will not requite any spacers. the more hub you have the better you are. let me know how we can help.
. They really do test everything before the put it on the market to make sure that it works and holds up. I have not actually purchased anything from Detroit tuned yet, but the guys over there also seem very knowledgable and friendly. I have called both vendors and talked to them about there kits and I will point out what they mentioned later in this thread. I'd also like to thank them for spending their time and talking to me...I start this thread to get NAM's opinion as I have a few months before I buy. Feel free to chime in TSW and DT!
05 CR/B MCS Tires:215 Dunlop Z1's
I guess i'll have to consider using a different 15" wheel. 
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