swaybars/strut braces/ ect ? help!!

[inmimini]

all my performance mods are done. now i was wondering what would be sugested to get first if i go into some handeling components. strut braces/ sway bars/ or maby springs. i like to whip around the tight curves on exit / entrance ramps and so on. any sugestions would be helpfull and preferences on what make model or brand?

thanks rich

[betet]

I like my setup... and here's the order I would have done it..

1. sway bar (rspeed is what I have)
2. springs/shocks (H Sport/ Konis) or coilovers
3. camber plates (RDRs)

I'm assuming you already have better set of rims/tires...

That's all for now..

///Gilbert

[inmimini]

i have after market rims but kept the same size 17 205 45
the sway bar you did in the front or rear?
after you did the springs and shocks does your car ride harder than stock? i realy dont wanna hit bumps any harder than it does already.

[betet]

Originally Posted by inmimini

i have after market rims but kept the same size 17 205 45
the sway bar you did in the front or rear?
after you did the springs and shocks does your car ride harder than stock? i realy dont wanna hit bumps any harder than it does already.

I only installed the Rspeed rear sway bar..

After the springs/shocks (I have Koni's set for softest setting) and the camber plates I don't really consider hitting the bump really hard, but there are some bumps that when I hit them I do know I have this "stiffer" type of a setup. But that can also be because I still have the run flats.. Or maybe that's how it was "stock", , I seriously can't remember how it was, but I'm not regretting going w/ this setup...

I don't like to have a hard ride as well and we have lots of nasty roads here in Cali, but the ride I think is still good..... It might be better to find someone w/ this setup and get a ride on their car.. Because when I was shopping for suspension, I didn't want to trust what other people said about how it felt, I wanted my "butt" feeling it on its own..

///Gilbert

[onasled]

First, what car do you have, a Cooper or a Cooper S?
If an S, then I gather you are still on runflats.
Get rid of those and get some Falkins as I think they are the best handling tire that still have a soft(ish) ride. Stick with 45s
Then go with the 22 mm rear sway bar
Then with Irerland fixed camber plates. (retaints the stock rubber mounts)
Then a good front alignment adding about 1/16 toe out.
Then H-sport rear control arms
Then a rear alignment with about 1.8 - camber and 0 toe.
Then for the big bucks, go with the Bilstien PSS9 coilovers

All of this should give much improved handling while retaining the ride you want. The PSS9s will be the thing that will make it a bit firmer. I don't like to recomend aftermarket lowering springs myself because I feel they in time will destroy the factory struts.

[inmimini]

yes i have the cooper s but run flats are gone kept all size the same 17 205 45.

[SpiderX]

If you go with the Konis and H sports I don't think you need or want a front sway bar...... If you go with he PSS9s you might.

[onasled]

Spider, My feeling on the front bar is that it's a mistake to use it for street driving. I feel it makes that car a little dangerous if driven aggressively on public roads that have unpredictable conditions like sand, dirt, unexpected quick decisions in navigation... etc.

Just my thoughts...

[meb]

Yea, Spider, I'm confused/surprised by what you wrote. The H-sports are much more biased towards oversteer than the PSS9's. A front bar would be more useful with the H-Sports.

I concur with Onasled; a little safety margin is always a good thing on public roads.

[pure&simple]

The front (at least for h-sport) is only stiffer by 16% (soft) or 27% (stiff). Adding the front bar alone should introduce more understeer, all other things being equal. You sound like you're speaking from experience, though, so I'm curious how you reached your conclusion. Isn't front/rear balance the important thing to consider regarding sway bars?

Originally Posted by onasled

Spider, My feeling on the front bar is that it's a mistake to use it for street driving. I feel it makes that car a little dangerous if driven aggressively on public roads that have unpredictable conditions like sand, dirt, unexpected quick decisions in navigation... etc.

Just my thoughts...

[meb]

Sorry for interrupting Onasled!

I feel like I'm a broken record sometimes...Spring rates should be selected first, then dampers because these control the springs and then swaybars as a FINE tuning mechanism. Onasled is currently running the PSS9 system. The spring rates are pretty close front and rear. There is a fairly large difference between front and rear H-Sports spring rates. If you install the same size swaybars on either of the above, they will still handle differently. In other words, a 16-27% stiffer front swaybar mated to a 190/300in/lb spring combo will not handling the same as the same 16-17% stiffer bar mated to a 345/350lb/in combo - all else equal.

And, I would assume that Onasled has dialed in his damper settings to work with his swaybar selection, or vise versa.

We do not typically get a chance to design our own spring and damper characterisitcs. Nonetheless, we should be conscious of why we are selecting spring rates, how these rates are damped, and then, decide upon the correct swaybar size to enhance the characterisitics of the spring and dampers. Swaybars should not be purchased to make a car corner flat. This is philosophically wrong and in practice will not yield the best results.

[Profpatpending]

so where is the best place to buy a rear sway bar 22mm with the three settings?

[pezboy]

With R Speed's current sale, and reasonable shipping quote - I found them to be the best. Just picked up the H-Sport comp rear bar and H-Sport springs.

[pure&simple]

Originally Posted by meb

I feel like I'm a broken record sometimes...Spring rates should be selected first, then dampers because these control the springs and then swaybars as a FINE tuning mechanism. Onasled is currently running the PSS9 system. The spring rates are pretty close front and rear. There is a fairly large difference between front and rear H-Sports spring rates. If you install the same size swaybars on either of the above, they will still handle differently. In other words, a 16-27% stiffer front swaybar mated to a 190/300in/lb spring combo will not handling the same as the same 16-17% stiffer bar mated to a 345/350lb/in combo - all else equal.

Meb, I agree with everything you wrote. I happen to have PSS9s as well and am in the process of dialing things in. It was the difference in spring rates between the H-sports and PSS9s prompted me to purchase the competition (rather than the sport) sway bar set. The PSS9s need more rear bar than the H-sports do to achieve the same balance.

Originally Posted by onasled

Spider, My feeling on the front bar is that it's a mistake to use it for street driving. I feel it makes that car a little dangerous if driven aggressively on public roads that have unpredictable conditions like sand, dirt, unexpected quick decisions in navigation...

Since I have the front sway bar on my car, I would like to know why onasled feels it is a mistake to use on the street. He's had it on his car for longer than I have and has used it successfully on the track, so I'd like to hear what he has to say.

[onasled]

Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it now, but I have slowed on the roads because I've found myself in trouble too many times lately. Fact is that it's actually harder to drive a car that has so many suspension upgrades. Yes, it will be faster on the track, but it takes more concentration.

The Mini, as all cars these days, comes quite easy to drive off the factory floor. Very forgiving and able to "telegraph" trouble ahead much better then a tweaked car. Racing suspension likes smoother driving under more predictable conditions. It does NOT telegraph trouble ahead until you are already there.
I found the front sway bar as one of the most dramatic changes to my suspension. Well, not just the addition of the front bar, but the addition of the rest of the suspension tuning to work with the front bar, such as rear bar is now on stiffest setting (could now use a bigger rear bar).

I'm on the other side of the tracks then people like MEB as they are more technical and understand why and how. I am more seat of the pants and tend to 'feel' my way to what I end up with. Meb may be able to explain better on "why" I am feeling like I'm feeling.
I was not trying to put a big warning out like "Warning, front sway bar on the street can be hazordice to your health" I think I was just worried, in my own mind, that some out there may be jumping into a 'race' type setup and end up with a car that could bite them in the a$$ in the blink of an eye. Just be careful as the more you do, the more the car demands from you. A stiff car and a bit of sand on the road is quite scarry

Just thought I'd add this;
I was driving with a fellow Mini buddy a few weeks ago. Last time I drove with him it was the typical kids stuff. Hitting corners and see if I could loose him. Well, this time I didn't even try as the road was quite bumpy. He just left me behind. No matter though as I know now what I can do on the track and that's my "happy Place" ..

[pure&simple]

Thanks for the clarification. :smile: That's a good explanation of the potential downsides to suspension tuning.

You bring up an interesting point... mods that make the suspension stiffer and improve grip on smooth roads tend to decrease grip in bumpy corners since the suspension isn't as effective in keeping the tires in contact with the road. I can attest to this as well, having gone from essentially stock (just rims & tires) to a full street setup (PSS9s, front & rear control arms, sway bars, camber plates, etc) in one fell swoop. I take it easy around bumpy corners too. There's plenty of smooth corners to have fun with.

[meb]

Onasled - don't give me too much credit; feel is everything, I think you're spot on!

Pure&simple, I didn't understand your original post. Sorry about that...the "broken record" comment was direct at myself by the way.

Regarding high performance suspension tuning; Manufacturers build in some degree of understeer in production cars depending upon the car and client. But there are other tingly little movements in most production cars that give one fair warning, as Onasled wrote, of impending doom. Geometry, tire choice, spring and damping can all be dialed to 'slow speed' a slide for example. Whereas, a car set up with low profile tires (40-45), stiff spring and damper settings, and quick acting steering/geometry may allow one to reach very high limits. However, when things go wrong at those higher limits, the forces acting on the car - generated by forward motion - are much greater...what may have been a production slow speed slider, is now a fast forward slider.

I personally agree with Onasled's viewpoint about tuning; it is harder to extract more from a highly tuned car on the street...and, it is a world full of unknowns. On a track, driver talent and goals are a bit more predictable.

[pure&simple]

Originally Posted by meb

Pure&simple, I didn't understand your original post. Sorry about that...the "broken record" comment was direct at myself by the way.

No worries. Motor on.

[markbradford]

Originally Posted by onasled

Spider, My feeling on the front bar is that it's a mistake to use it for street driving. I feel it makes that car a little dangerous if driven aggressively on public roads that have unpredictable conditions like sand, dirt, unexpected quick decisions in navigation... etc.

Just my thoughts...

????

A stiffer front bar induces more UNDERSTEER, which is much safer for the average driver than oversteer.

Perhaps you were speaking about rear bars?

[kapps]

Originally Posted by markbradford

????

A stiffer front bar induces more UNDERSTEER, which is much safer for the average driver than oversteer.

Perhaps you were speaking about rear bars?

Yeah, I agree. The stiff front bar will be more beneficial to the average driver as they tend to hit the brakes when traction is lost...not good when oversteering.

[Fracky]

Originally Posted by pure&simple

The front (at least for h-sport) is only stiffer by 16% (soft) or 27% (stiff). Adding the front bar alone should introduce more understeer, all other things being equal. You sound like you're speaking from experience, though, so I'm curious how you reached your conclusion. Isn't front/rear balance the important thing to consider regarding sway bars?

You're right about the night-and-day difference between the stock suspension setup and my H-Sport/BMP/Autopower setup. We have H-Sport: springs and front (1st setting) & rear sway bars (tightest setting), BMP strut-tower brace, 2"x2" steel bar welded in the back and modified Autopower half-cage welded to the frame.
Before all the modifications, our Mini had slight body roll and felt loose in the corners, but now it's like driving one of those digital cars in Tron, ie. 90-degree turns w/o slowing down.
I'm not a professional driver by any means, but the biggest "seat of the pants" change was the rear sway bar and springs. My wife doesn't like the harsh ride going over bumps, but onramps and offramps are a whole bunch of fun.

[meb]

You know, I just re-read my reply and assumed Onasled was writing about the rear bar - he knows what he is doing...just trusted him. Agreed, and all things equal, a larger front bar is safer for the average driver. That said, a car that has exceeded its limtis and is in a full understeering slide will almost always hit what it is pointed at.

It has been written that understeer scares the %^&! out of the driver, and that oversteer scares the #$%! out of the pasenger. Frankly Scarlet, I'm fond of niether.

Sorry for my previous confusing reply!

[markbradford]

Originally Posted by meb

It has been written that understeer scares the %^&! out of the driver, and that oversteer scares the #$%! out of the pasenger. Frankly Scarlet, I'm fond of niether.

You're not fond of oversteer??? That's crazy talk!

The Mini pulls out of oversteer so easily and is so controllable. I love shaking the ass in it!

[onasled]

I was speaking of the front bar.
If you have not driven (hard) with one (and the rest of the suspension tuned for it) then be careful what you are predicting. This is no longer a Mini factory understeer, this is now understeer with a very stiff suspension. It aint the same folks, so be careful. It takes an added level of skill to handle it on the track, and I don't even attempt to push it on puplic roads.
By the way, I have gooten my car closer to neutral with this setup, so understeer was not really the issue.

[kmickey]

Well said onasled.
The very reason I don't drive my car in the rain (on the streets). The suspension is great on a smooth dry track, but a nightmare while on California's Baja 500 freeways. Especially in the rain.

Originally Posted by onasled

Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it now, but I have slowed on the roads because I've found myself in trouble too many times lately. Fact is that it's actually harder to drive a car that has so many suspension upgrades. Yes, it will be faster on the track, but it takes more concentration.

The Mini, as all cars these days, comes quite easy to drive off the factory floor. Very forgiving and able to "telegraph" trouble ahead much better then a tweaked car. Racing suspension likes smoother driving under more predictable conditions. It does NOT telegraph trouble ahead until you are already there.
I found the front sway bar as one of the most dramatic changes to my suspension. Well, not just the addition of the front bar, but the addition of the rest of the suspension tuning to work with the front bar, such as rear bar is now on stiffest setting (could now use a bigger rear bar).

I'm on the other side of the tracks then people like MEB as they are more technical and understand why and how. I am more seat of the pants and tend to 'feel' my way to what I end up with. Meb may be able to explain better on "why" I am feeling like I'm feeling.
I was not trying to put a big warning out like "Warning, front sway bar on the street can be hazordice to your health" I think I was just worried, in my own mind, that some out there may be jumping into a 'race' type setup and end up with a car that could bite them in the a$$ in the blink of an eye. Just be careful as the more you do, the more the car demands from you. A stiff car and a bit of sand on the road is quite scarry

Just thought I'd add this;
I was driving with a fellow Mini buddy a few weeks ago. Last time I drove with him it was the typical kids stuff. Hitting corners and see if I could loose him. Well, this time I didn't even try as the road was quite bumpy. He just left me behind. No matter though as I know now what I can do on the track and that's my "happy Place" ..