I've been running into some fitment issues with the KW's and other brands of 60 mm id springs. Seems KW's idea of 60 mm id spring (61.9) and perch (61.1) is a little bigger than other brands. Swift 61.1 and 59.5, Eibach 60.3, spring only and H&R 61.1, spring only. Numbers are rounded +/- 1/128 in and converted to mm. The H&R's do fit a little better than the Swifts, I guess that's from the rounding +/-.

While the Swift coils fit snugly on the bottom perch they are to tight to fit the top perch or the mid perch while the H&R will fit snugly on both, the Eibachs are hopeless on both.

All do however fit the Swift mid perch and Vorshlag top perch that comes with their camber plates.

Anyone else experience this?

Update 7/2/20, The Eibach, I measured was a 20+ year old tender spring.. Since then, in the last 3 years, I have purchased 3 or 4 pairs of their main springs and all but one measured at least 62.2 mm in diameter! Hyperco's and Eibach's and are my favorite springs to put on KW coilovers, for several reasons.

 

Hi-

While I haven't tried any spring alternatives, I have taken an interest in what your findings have been.

I have some ST coil overs that are effectively the same as V1s and V2s in terms of fitment (this verified by ST/KW's Manager of Distribution) but upper spring coils are rubbing the upper spring seat (second wind of coil tapers in too quickly as the coils twist down to the small lower diameter perch.

Which model KWs are you running..V1 V2 V3?

Been in contact with Way and Jason over at Vorshlag so far but still trying to figure out the right springs that will fit. It may come down to going with a linear spring and different top hat/mount from Vorshlag.

Interested in any findings you have had so far beyond what you wrote above.

 

I think I saw a picture of yours in another post and it was the 2nd coil up from the lower perch that was rubbing.

Short and quick solution, spacers and extended bolts or studs. If you get studs, get at least 50 mm long, total length. Helix has a stud conversion kit that includes 2.25 inch studs and new nuts.

I had one of the first sets of V1's in the US before they changed them to INOX and progressive rate springs. They came with a 170/60/50 front spring with a helper spring and a 200/60/40 rear spring.

With the oem wheels and tires and no spacer (195/55/16 and 16x6.5 +48) I had to run the car at the highest possible position on the strut to just barley clear the perch with the tire. this was to high, so I removed the helper spring, which made me to low but I cautiously ran them like that for most of a year, when I got my KW Competition 2 Ways, which basically had the same issue but I used a slightly stiffer spring (170/60/60) to raise the ride height.

Many people had this problem and I think that's why they switched to the tapered spring, which some people still have a problem with.

What size wheels do you have? What off set? What size tires?

If you are seeking a solution from KW, I'd ask them what parts you need to do a linear conversion. I'd then leave out whatever top perch they say you will need and get camber plates that don't raise the car. You may want to get a shorter main spring like their 160/60/60 but no stiffer than that and then use their helper spring or get a longer main spring from another source, like a 7 inch Swift in a 5 kg spring rate in combination with no helper spring.

There are a couple of other options when running a linear spring at it's highest position in order to get the ride height to a more desirable level. I'm using K-mac camber plates, which are not cheap but look it, but they do lower the car a little and a caster adjustability.

I have a new set of customized KW V3"s here now waiting to be put on and another set that just went on my Subaru.

 

Yes, I did post a photo in another thread, but its the second coil of the spring from the TOP thats rubbing (not 2nd from the bottom) and its rubbing the top perch on the inside of the spring coil.

Separately, I have the Enkie RPF1 wheels in a 17 with Continentals in a 215 (don't know offsets right off hand). Not sure if I'm getting any wheel to suspension rubbin but I may need to check again with the wheels removed to rule it out. Its pretty close and there has been some strange rubbing feeling through the steering at slow speeds so they very well may be. Thanks for the tips on what options I have to remedy it.

Back to springs: For weeks I'm gone round and round with KW trying to find out about my options. KW is claiming that they aren't aware of the compatibility of any of their linear springs versus my STs (or V1/V2) but it seems that maybe Way Motorworks has already sorted it out with a competitor's springs given his offerings online for a modified V2 setup (pics on his site show a linear with a helper on the fronts). Tried an email to him the other day with no reply and his voicemail is full so may have to check back with him in a day or so to find out exactly what parts he uses and possibly place an order.

Curious what you may know about issues others have had with the KW tapered springs? Rubbing at the inner part of the 2nd coils against upper OEM perches like me perhaps? Bilsteins' solution is a progressive rate spring that doesn't taper until the VERY bottom, thus avoiding the second coil rubbing issue. Or at least I suspect so given the design and my own personal issues with the rapid tapering of the KW progressive rate springs. Wish Bilstein would sell these springs independent of their entire coil over kit but they unfortunately don't. In the meantime while I wait to reach Way I'll give Swift a call and see what they may know about compatibility. If you have any other sources that may be helpful. I do have a set of new KW progressive rate springs identical to what are on the front of my car now so I suppose I could ship one to a spring company to have them identify a compatible replacement but it may be a long-shot other than going with a linear set up. The unfortunate thing is then I'll probably need new camber plates in addition to top hats and mounts. Wish I'd had just spent a few more bucks and gone with Bilsteins. Their PSS9s are awesome on my Porsche 993.

 

Goofed up the reply but its up there.

Talk to Tom Edge at KW.

 

I'll give Tom a call but did manage to reach Way today. His V2s are a proprietary setup that he worked out with KW. He said they have the parts, but much like Bilstein, they (or he) aren't going to let just springs/hats go without selling the whole package. Back to square one.....or Tom. Doubtful I'll sort this without significantly more $$$. So it really is going to come down to an alternative complete new coil over set OR going with what Vorshlag or K-mac may have (haven't seen K-mac's stuff yet). I think the install was done right. Can't think of what parts may be missing. What could cause the tapering of the spring design to bind against the upper spring seat? Would come down to a spacer of some sort between the spring and the top cap and the only think that I'm aware of that goes there is a rubber insert, nothing more. So the lack of feedback from others who own these coil overs who might have replied to my threads here on NAM (nearly 200 views by visitors to this board with no replies) tells me the sales of ST's or KW V1's and V2's was pretty light. Spring to OEM top cap on each of these models should be EXACTLY the same and they DEFINATELY use the EXACT SAME SPRINGS on all three variants (confirmed by KW). If others came forward with the same issue I could confirm your suspicions of a botched install but unfortunately without that feedback I can't be sure. So....running out of conclusions other than that these progressive rate springs MAY be improperly designed. Bilsteins don't taper so quickly and actually don't narrow until the very bottom of the coils. I think I now know why...to avoid spring coil to upper spring seat binding issues. Too bad I can't get my hands on a set of these...oh well.

 

Check KW's installation instructions, which can be found on their web site. I don't remember if you said you got these new or used? If new and you've checked the installation instructions and confirmed all the oem and KW parts are there, talk to Tom Edge.

 

Yes, second hand owner but a close friend put them on a car he modded for his wife who apparently never heard any creaking (or at least she didn't notice). He hardly ever drove it plus it's a convertible so road noise probably masked the noises. Her car is being sold so coil overs came off after a year and onto my car. Apparently her car has the exact same wear marks on lower inner areas of upper front spring perches so we know it's the same issue. I'll try Tom but we are confident that all parts are there. If ST/KW have sold so many of these kits as they told me, how is it that nobody around here has them on their car? Isn't this supposed to be the leading web forum for minis? There's a reason Bilstein's version of coil overs have front springs that don't taper until the VERY bottom. Tapering too quickly causes contact with second round of inner part of coils in front. I'm not an engineer but I'm not an idiot either. KWs PROGRESSIVE RATE SPRINGS ARE IMPROPERLY ENGINEERED. If they had spent a little more time (or ANY time) testing parts on actual mini coopers they would know this. In the pursuit of profits I have no doubt they cut corners by making sure they had a coil that fit a mini upper perch (on a machine in their factory and not a car) but didn't do road testing of their coil overs on an actual mini. My coil overs are properly installed and all the parts are in place. The person who put it all together is highly experienced and not some retail shop that put it all together as fast as possible to get to the next car ASAP. KW KNEW THAT GUYS LIKE WAY HAVE PROPRIETARY SETUPS OF V2s WITH LINEAR SPRINGS THAT WORK AND KW PUTS IT ALL TOGETHER FOR HIM. how do I know this you ask? WAY TOLD ME HIMSELF. He also said he won't sell me the springs and top spring seats because he wants to make money selling entire kits not just a few parts- gee thanks Way...****. KW CHOSE TO LIE TO ME WHEN I ASKED ABOUT OTHER SPRINGS AND PERCHES THAT WOULD WORK SAYING THEY DIDNT KNOW AND THAT IT WOULD TAKE ALL KINDS OF TRIAL AND ERROR FITMENTS TO FIGURE IT OUT - THAT IS A BUNCH OF ****ING ********!!!!

 

I will add one more thing. I have a set of customized KW V3's for my Subaru. I got them from Race Comp Engineering. They are very much like Way's TSW KW's but they call their's Tarmac 2's. RCE is so much more owner friendly they aren't even in the same league. I think with a little info from you they could fix you up with a linear conversion.

For their purposes, all you have in the front is the strut and you will need every thing else. You will need to tell them you have ST's as they may need a different perch than the INOX KW's.

 

I think calling RCE is my best bet. Way was complaining about his competitors undercutting pricing on stock KW and ST coil over sets. Amazing to me that vendors are bickering between one another and its nearly impossible to get a straight honest answer from the manufacturer or vendors let alone some assistance in resolving the issue by companies that have the solution in hand. Why not just sell the frickin' springs and upper perches and make a few bucks rather than ZERO? Its as if to say these vendors don't want to spend any extra time to handle a situation and just want to sell something out of the box with maximum profit and the customer can take it or leave it. Pretty much says "give me ALL of your money" so I can make maximum profit or forget about it. Thats a crap attitude. Other than the improper engineering of the spring coils, these STs are actually quite good. Nice ride and good quality at a decent price. I will see if this guy can help me or may wind up sending my springs to Jason at Vorshlag to see if he can figure out what springs would work for me. Insane that I have to go this route. I did send a message to Freddie at KW (distribution and production manager) to ask him if he can simply tell me the specs of the springs that work with my STs now that I know FOR A FACT that they DO know the answer since they make something for WAY's company. We'll see what they tell me. I just want to buy the parts and move on. No reason this needs to be so time consuming and frustrating. I can afford new coil overs but I'm not taking the prospects of paying hundreds and hundreds more dollars to solve something that can be so simply solved if someone would just be cooperative. It pisses me off big time.

 

To help speed things up, I have two suggestions. There is a label on each coilover that has several groups of numbers on it. KW says the important number for getting replacement parts is the FKLZ ?????? number. The ?? represents 3 letters followed by 3 numbers. Each front strut will have it's own number. In the case of the Mini, the left rear will have the same number as the right rear.

Of course you aren't really looking for replacement parts but hopefully based on those numbers someone will know the thread pitch and strut diameter you have. As a backup, you may want to measure those yourself.

It will probably be best for you to get a 50N (or 5kg) rate spring as that's what my V1's came with before they came out with the INOX material which has different threads than the original V1's or ST's. It will be tricky to match the right combination of main and helper spring to maximize tire to spring perch clearance. I strongly suggest that you get spacers and longer bolts or studs to get you more freedom in which combination of springs will work for you. No need to get KW springs. I'd go with with some Eibach 180-60-0050 mains (10 mm longer than KW's (170/60/50) but with 18 mm more spring travel and a set of Swift H60-060-015 helper springs. (about 5.5 mm shorter stack ht. than the KW 10/60/80 that comes with most KW's for Mini's) and the Swifts come with the needed intermediate perch that connects the main and helper spring, so no need to order that separately and thrust sheets, which don't normally come with KW's.

KW's intermediate perch will not fit many other 60 mm id springs without some lathe work on the perch. I have yet to find a 60 mm id spring that doesn't fit the Swift perch. You could, of course, get some 7 inch Swift main springs in a Z60-178-050 and Eibach has a 170-60-0050 main spring as well, that offers 13 mm more travel than KW's, according to both manufacturers specs and Eibach Mains do fit all KW perch's.

Summit Racing may be the best place to get the Eibachs but they can be special ordered from Tire Rack. Ordering through Summit is a much smoother process and they have an excellent return policy but depending on spring size they may be cheaper or more expensive than TR. Summit will also get you the springs quicker.

 

Thanks for the information. Will need to look this over and figure out how to go. I appreciate your taking the time to lay out the details. Cheers!

 

As a follow-up to share the solution to my problem with the STs:
KW's linear springs/crossover/helper springs from their clubsport kit will work. Fit perfectly in replacement of their improperly designed front progressive rate springs that rub inner part of coils against the upper OEM spring perch. Need to mod Ireland's linear spring top caps to mate with the 61mm inner diameter of the KWs.

 

Andy from Racecomp Engineering here.

Cool you got this worked out. We have a bunch of KW springs on the shelf and can always get more. Also have some KW upper spring perches that MAY work for a MINI but we haven't tried. If you have any pics it will help.

 

Update. K-Mac has changed (improved) their perch design in multiple ways to reduce NVH and help reduce the possibility of coil bind. I got their mid level perch shortly after the orginal post in this thread. Think they call them Street/Race. Stage 2? There is now a rubber spring seat that sits on top of the metal one and all the springs fit on it with no problem. The new plates have more range of Camber and caster adjustment than my old ones. These replaced my original Race version K-Mac's that were worn out.

 

so what did you end up with?

I've got some KW v3's I'm going to purchase swifts for this week, I have not figured out what top/bottom perches I need. I was hoping to stay with oem style top so I can keep using my eibach camber plates

planning 9k front and 10k rears not sure if going with helper springs

 

Not sure this will work with an oem style top mount and linear springs. And in any case the flex of the oem top mount would negate some of the added spring stiffness and precision control of the shocks not to mention probably destroy your top mounts more quickly. And I have no idea what the combination would do to your total stack height.

Currently the Mini has The K-Mac camber/caster plates with the 60 mm id spring seats they came with. Other diameters are available when ordering.

Eibach Tender springs, on front, that I've had for twenty years and finally found the perfect use for. 13 or 14 mm stack height. no longer made I understand so get the 1.5 Kg/mm Swift Helper springs that come with their own intermediate spring perch and thrust sheets. Swift lists this as having a 19 mm stack height but that includes the 3 mm thickness of the perch, so a real stack of 16 mm the way I look at it. It's also what I put on my Subaru with RCE's Tarmack 2 coilovers which is a modified version of KW V3's, some what like Way's TSW's

A modified KW intermediate perch, so the springs would freely sit on them. Simple lathe work but you won't need to do that with the Swift perch and any spring I've ever tried.

Eibach 180/60/60 main spring That's 180 mm long vs the 170 mm that came with my early production V1's and Comp 2 Ways but KW's tender spring has a 25 mm stack ht with their perch. Eibach main's have 60 mm id and 342 lb spring rate (60 N/mm)

Keep in mind my car is no longer primarily an Autocross car but a street car. Were I to change back I'd use a set of Eibach's 170/60/60 for more spring perch to tire clearance. Another good choice with even more, is a 6 inch Hyperco 350 lb

In the rear I'm using the 70/170 KW's and tenders that came with Way's TSW modified KW V3's.

If you are going way stiffer than me I'd get 140 mm or 6 inch mains depending on what brand you get. if you get the 6 inch and are way stiffer I'd also get short stack tender or Assist springs but with the 140 mm springs KW's 10/60/80's tenders should be fine. their 20/60/80 has another 10 mm of stack ht so I'd avoid those.

On the Subaru I went with Vorshag camber plates flipped so I cane adjust caster as well, Swift assist and main springs but I have a set of softer hyperco's to put on if I want to change the balance of the car some or just make the car a little softer.

5/18/20 Update. The Eibach Tender spring I referenced before is available again. Part # 40-60-0020, with specs on site. Eibach main springs 180-60-0060, in fact all their 180mm springs are no longer listed as available but I'd be surprised if there weren't some in the main warehouse. Also possibly the shortest stack/Block height tender spring I'd consider usable, I think, is the H&R ZF070-16.5, I had a pair of these but sold them to a friend in immediate need a few years ago. If my memory is correct they had a 14mm block ht. Despite the16.5 N/mm rating they are wimpy compared to the Eibach's 20 N/mm rating. The 70mm long H&R's I could compress with an estimated 80- 90 lb. of weight but I could barely compress the 55mm long Eibach, by standing on it, when I weighed apx 200. H&R says the 016.5 has a 14.5mm block Ht Eibach's tender say 15mm.

7/2/20 Update. I found the 180 mm Eibach's again at Jegs.com As I've prepared to go back to autocrossing again, I decided to try the 180/60/60 with no tender, instead of the 170/60/60 with a tender. I liked the longer travel, of the longer spring, and as an added benefit, with the spring all the way to the highest threaded part of the KW's, It put me at exactly the ride ht. I wanted, 12.875" wheel center to wheel arch. I have apx 3 mm I can come down without the springs being loose, with both wheels, at full droop. So, if I wanted any real adjustment range I'd need a shorter spring, with a tender.

I have a lot of tender springs on hand, so if any one here has a question about tender springs and how they might match up stack height wise with some combination of main spring, feel free.

 

I ordered the KW helpers and top perches that I'll have turned down a bit to fit the swift springs.

I have not ordered springs yet, My plan was 9kg/mm aka 504 lb fronts and 10kg/mm aka 560 lb rear but I dont know if 6" springs with kw helpers works on both front and rear of the kw V3 shocks

next spring size for swifts is 7" long

I really dont want much drop

 

I still think you are going to be massively underdamped but if you're going to stay with those rates you may want to get a 5 in spring. Hyperco has a 5.5 in spring and I really like their springs but they don't have much in the way of rate selection, in that length, for 60 mm ID springs (550, 650 & 750 or even in their 7 in springs, a few better choices in 6 in. Did you price KW's 140 mm springs? Eibach has 140's as well, I think. You can price the Eibach's from Summit Racing. I think at your rates I'd get 5.5 in or 140 mm.

 

8" front 6" rear thats what the TSW kit used with helpers on both ends, they ran something like 350 lb/in springs I'll be running 500 lb front and 550 rear something like that.

Pretty sure I need a helper on the rear, probably not on the front

swift are highly regarded and 85 $ a pop

 

I have Way's TSW V3's on the car now. They came with 170 mm springs front and 140 mm rear (6.7 and 5.5 in) + tenders at both ends. All main springs, on the kit are 70 N/mm. (400 lb)