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Just got mine installed yesturday. Definitely feels much firmer than the stock springs, and the cornering feels much more solid. I'm not going to lie though, i'm still not too satisfied with the drop. How much lower will i get once the springs settle?
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09 JCW - Exhaust Depot Manaflow DP Back~Ghetto K&N Intake~17x7 Tenzo R Type M~NM Engineering Springs
not yet. the ride isn't harsh, but it feels stiffer. less body roll through corners, but you definitely don't feel like you're going to going to break your back over bumps. but i don't see how everbody says that it feels softer than stock
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09 JCW - Exhaust Depot Manaflow DP Back~Ghetto K&N Intake~17x7 Tenzo R Type M~NM Engineering Springs
"softer than stock" is probably the feeling with NMs and FSDs :P springs are only part of the suspension remember... shocks are as big a part as springs
__________________ JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
LazerBlue R56 2007 What you see is whats installed... after all, with MINIs, "it ain't no 10 second race"... it's about bending the rules and ruling the bends!
Well i'd sure hope aftermarket isn't softer than stock... All I was saying is that fsd shocks have valving that makes them more comfortable than stock but also gives better cornering in spirited driving, pair that with a well designed spring and bam... Softer than stock and corners better... I say that mainly because fsd's are designed to work with a stock height spring or lowered I think something like 1.5"... But in terms of engineering no aftermarket shock will be as effective as a stock shock, because a stock shock factors in high speed and low speed compressions, pot hole absorbing, long lasting internals, geared towards comfort and the ability to cancel out the "seasaw effect" that coilovers can do, especially on longer wheelbases cars. This is the reason I'm so avid about jcw suspension, because it has all that built in, is taught, set for everything, and has warantee :p
__________________ JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
LazerBlue R56 2007 What you see is whats installed... after all, with MINIs, "it ain't no 10 second race"... it's about bending the rules and ruling the bends!
But in terms of engineering no aftermarket shock will be as effective as a stock shock, because a stock shock factors in high speed and low speed compressions, pot hole absorbing, long lasting internals, geared towards comfort and the ability to cancel out the "seasaw effect" that coilovers can do, especially on longer wheelbases cars. This is the reason I'm so avid about jcw suspension, because it has all that built in, is taught, set for everything, and has warantee :p
Really? So something like Ohlins Coilovers or Bilstein PSS9s don't factor in high/low speed compression, pot-hole absorption, long lasting internals?
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Factory built 08/08 MINI JCW: JCW Aerokit, M7 C-Wing, Bilstein PSS10, Vorshlag camber plates, RennSport Racing Rear Upper and Lower Control Arms, Howerton Engineering HFS-3 w/ Race Tank, Whiteline 20mm RSB, RMW Tune, Dunlop Direzza Star Spec Z1, DoS CAI, Evolve FMIC, BSH OCC + Dual Boost Port, NM SSK, etalj-spec torque arm ;), Goodridge SS Brake Lines, Endless RF-650 fluid, Carbotech XP12s, ALTA PSRS, Powergrid adjustable endlinks, Challenge Decals
Bilsteins pss9 are a very well made coilovers but I can guarantee u they just like all off the shelf use a template setup, they aren't tested as thuroughly as stock shocks...they take a setup from the R53 and say this is what worked here, and we just have to make minor changes if any at all to work on the R56 chassis. If it worked on one platform why not another? Right? And in some cases customers are happy with that! I see the r56 as an evolution of the R53, but the engine is revolutionary, so my stance was why smack the amount of attention this car has by slapping an off the shelf coilover.
Not saying they're bad by any means mind u, I'm not trying to knock aftermarket at all (hell look at my sig, I'm covered in the aftermarket bug) but they are set to work well with their setup only. Now obviously some people absolutely love the coilovers available right out of the box, I've driven a couple coilovers and liked them but they all just were missing something for me, so I figured, as with all things, the more money you put out there the better the product will be and the more adjustability ull have... So because of that I got my coilovers set up to give my car near neutral understeer at the limit because that's my driving style and best setup.
Now IMHO Top end ohlins will be the best thing u could ever get.... But let's face it 99% of mini owners will not fork out 4-10k on a top end coilover... Half the time the price doesn't even include springs. But you want to talk about one of the ultimate suspensions ever and ohlin will come up every time...
In the end I can just say guaranteed that no aftermarket springs and shocks short of a well researched custom set will have as much time, and R&D put into them as OEM
__________________ JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
LazerBlue R56 2007 What you see is whats installed... after all, with MINIs, "it ain't no 10 second race"... it's about bending the rules and ruling the bends!
Your definition of "effective" may be different than others....this is key.
Stock shocks on all "sporty" cars try to strike a balance between comfort and handling. Suspension engineers can really control the character of the car through spring rate and valving. In some cases, it works really well (Porsche 911, BMW M3). In others, it kinda sucks (Hyundai Genesis coupe base model is too soft, 2008 Subaru WRX is way too soft with massive understeer, 2003 Mitsubishi EVO is too harsh). They have to find the balance of aggressiveness without harshness that their core customers will like. They do put in a lot of R&D...BUT don't always get it right. Some of that is due to the marketing/safety/packaging restrictions, but sometimes they just plain could have done a much better job and they know it (see improved 2009 WRX, later model EVOs).
Koni FSDs may be more "effective" than stock for someone because of smoother ride quality. I think they run less high speed rebound to avoid some sharp bump harshness. Maybe they don't handle quite as well as stock, but some people will be happy with the compromise that the Koni FSD's give you.
But both stock and Koni FSD do have a MASSIVE shortcoming, and that is travel. The majority of your spring rate is derived from the bumpstops. Some people seem to think they hit the bump stops "occasionally" but in reality you're on them even before you've had your big lunch or if you haven't had your mid-afternoon poo. (sorry for the visual)
The short travel and active bumpstop usage means you have great response, feel, and good transitions. The car really does feel fantastic.....up to about 8/10ths on SMOOTH roads. Past this point you overload the front tires as the car is rolling heavily into it's bumpstops and spring rate spikes to infinity, resulting in understeer. In reality, it's a great safety feature that keeps people from getting in over their heads, but handling suffers. This could be what the engineers at MINI were trying to do....make a great handling car for the street that feels amazing, but safely and controllabley understeers.
I would not put any lowering spring on this car due to the lack of travel.
Coilovers often do use a generic damper insert that is used on multiple cars. I know for a fact that Megan uses the same exact insert and valving for the Subaru Impreza, Subaru Legacy, and Mitsubishi EVO across different model years. This is not a good thing, especailly when that generic valving is not very good.
Some companies do a good job though, like Koni, Bilstein, Ohlins, etc. They may not spend quite as much time as the OEMs fine tuning the valving, but they do pretty darn well with their decades of experience getting it right for the car. They know they can't get it 100% right for everyone, but they can make a good product that makes most people happy. For those that need to dial things in even more, you can have them do custom work.
The real advantage of good coilovers is that they'll give you more travel, so you can lower it and still have usable suspension stroke left. That and they're valved correctly to handle the higher spring rates you want if you're tracking the car. Well....good ones are valved correctly, many are not.
Might not be a good idea for everyone, but surely more effective on the track!
just wanted to say that wasn't directed at anyone, i just started rambling about the Mini's suspension since i've been spending so much time with it lately.
I agree with you that in terms of lowering springs, I would prefer stock springs with stock dampers over any lowering spring combo. I may prefer Koni or Bilstein over the stock dampers though.
+1 all around! (new friend) very well stated indeed
__________________ JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
LazerBlue R56 2007 What you see is whats installed... after all, with MINIs, "it ain't no 10 second race"... it's about bending the rules and ruling the bends!
And slow days at work are wonderful for brainstorming (see three posts up :p)
__________________ JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
LazerBlue R56 2007 What you see is whats installed... after all, with MINIs, "it ain't no 10 second race"... it's about bending the rules and ruling the bends!
Yeh I think I pretty much agree with everything you guys said, and much of it mirrors my original thoughts (hence the agreement).
The coilovers I'm interested in aren't high-end Ohlins dunphy, just the street coilovers.
However, when you said you specced your coilovers yourself, do you mean just the spring rates? Because I'm interested in a setup much like yours. Stability, and neutral(ish) understeer at the limit. My track speeds depend very much on my confidence.
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Factory built 08/08 MINI JCW: JCW Aerokit, M7 C-Wing, Bilstein PSS10, Vorshlag camber plates, RennSport Racing Rear Upper and Lower Control Arms, Howerton Engineering HFS-3 w/ Race Tank, Whiteline 20mm RSB, RMW Tune, Dunlop Direzza Star Spec Z1, DoS CAI, Evolve FMIC, BSH OCC + Dual Boost Port, NM SSK, etalj-spec torque arm ;), Goodridge SS Brake Lines, Endless RF-650 fluid, Carbotech XP12s, ALTA PSRS, Powergrid adjustable endlinks, Challenge Decals
and etalj i spec the whole things... the springs i had made linear so they're predictable 100% of the time rather than progressives which you don't always know when you're going to get stiff or soft rates... i found that for near neutral understeer at the limit changing the bias from rear to front will do that... so i'm running 450 lb-in front and 350 lb.in rear... that's nott he most streetable version... for better street manors i'd suggest 400/300 f/r respectively... throw them over double adjustable konis or ohlins and you'll be an extremely happy MINIac (assuming you're driving style is like mine hahaha but if you want as close to FWD race style setup i will happily send you my homework :P ) i've also found that you don't need more than -1 degree of camber front and rear... caster will take care of the rest... i'm actually stepping my rear camber down to -0.8 also the double adjustable will help with day to day driving... at first i had single adjustable on the coilovers but the rebound wasn't where i needed it to be for road driving so i had them remade for double adjustability (kinda a pain in the ass $$ wise... but well worth it in the end... ergo i'd suggest the double adjustables right off the bat if you don't mind forking the money over....) add that to the threaded body and you have a wonderfully handling track ready daily driver with camber front and rear, corner balanced, and ready for anything the road can throw at you.
__________________ JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
LazerBlue R56 2007 What you see is whats installed... after all, with MINIs, "it ain't no 10 second race"... it's about bending the rules and ruling the bends!
and etalj i spec the whole things... the springs i had made linear so they're predictable 100% of the time rather than progressives which you don't always know when you're going to get stiff or soft rates... i found that for near neutral understeer at the limit changing the bias from rear to front will do that... so i'm running 450 lb-in front and 350 lb.in rear... that's nott he most streetable version... for better street manors i'd suggest 400/300 f/r respectively... throw them over double adjustable konis or ohlins and you'll be an extremely happy MINIac (assuming you're driving style is like mine hahaha but if you want as close to FWD race style setup i will happily send you my homework :P ) i've also found that you don't need more than -1 degree of camber front and rear... caster will take care of the rest... i'm actually stepping my rear camber down to -0.8 also the double adjustable will help with day to day driving... at first i had single adjustable on the coilovers but the rebound wasn't where i needed it to be for road driving so i had them remade for double adjustability (kinda a pain in the ass $$ wise... but well worth it in the end... ergo i'd suggest the double adjustables right off the bat if you don't mind forking the money over....) add that to the threaded body and you have a wonderfully handling track ready daily driver with camber front and rear, corner balanced, and ready for anything the road can throw at you.
I don't wanna hijack this thread, so I'll PM you instead!
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Factory built 08/08 MINI JCW: JCW Aerokit, M7 C-Wing, Bilstein PSS10, Vorshlag camber plates, RennSport Racing Rear Upper and Lower Control Arms, Howerton Engineering HFS-3 w/ Race Tank, Whiteline 20mm RSB, RMW Tune, Dunlop Direzza Star Spec Z1, DoS CAI, Evolve FMIC, BSH OCC + Dual Boost Port, NM SSK, etalj-spec torque arm ;), Goodridge SS Brake Lines, Endless RF-650 fluid, Carbotech XP12s, ALTA PSRS, Powergrid adjustable endlinks, Challenge Decals
But in terms of engineering no aftermarket shock will be as effective as a stock shock, because a stock shock factors in high speed and low speed compressions, pot hole absorbing, long lasting internals, ....
Uh... WHAT??
Stock shocks virtually never have "long lasting internals". They're el-cheapo's, bought at the least cost possible by the mf'r. They're 100% of the time an inferior product to a quality aftermarket shock, and will wear out much faster as well. Both Koni & Bilstein warrant their shocks/struts for life. Your stockers will be lucky to last 30k miles. And, if you lower the car and leave the stock shocks in place, they'll be lucky to last 15k, and won't be doing their job properly on shorter springs than they were designed for.
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'10 MCS "Jethro". All PW, aero kit, carbon black lounge leather, anthracite h/l, Cream White c/l, convenience, cold weather, xenon, rear fogs, nav, h/k sound, white turns, H&R touring cup kit, BBS LM's (aka "Let's Motor"), Michelin Pilot Exalto PE2's. '07 Z4M Coupe, bone stock.
Stock shocks virtually never have "long lasting internals". They're el-cheapo's, bought at the least cost possible by the mf'r. They're 100% of the time an inferior product to a quality aftermarket shock, and will wear out much faster as well. Both Koni & Bilstein warrant their shocks/struts for life. Your stockers will be lucky to last 30k miles. And, if you lower the car and leave the stock shocks in place, they'll be lucky to last 15k, and won't be doing their job properly on shorter springs than they were designed for.
i'd say your right... if it weren't for the hundreds and hundreds of people who leave their cars stock and never touch springs or shocks and after 120,000+ miles (which my uncle has 200,000 on his STILL stock R53) the shocks and springs are still fine considering they're the ones he had on the car since he got it. granted he doesn't track his car, they are a little bad on rebound, and considering they lasted 180,000 miles before starting to show signs of age i think that's pretty damn good... and yes all shocks are going to go eventually that's just wear and tear... but are you saying that an aftermarket shock won't die? and if you run aftermarket lowering springs then i'd be amazed if stock shocks would function well after 15k... let alone 30 (which is where i completely agree with you and where we've said the same thing)... but i had my stock suspension on till 34k miles after track days, cross country road trips, mountains, two off roading experiences (neither intentional) and very nasty roads... they worked just as fine as the day it came to me off the assembly line.
and yes it's a very common practice for people to grab some bilsteins or koni stock replacement shocks after their warrantee and shocks die... but i thought this thread was about lowering springs :P not to mention shock threads seem few and far between... all i've really seen lately was a couple ones asking if FSDs are out yet... and those are almost always paired with lowering springs... thought FSDs with JCW springs would be sweet hahaha
__________________ JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
LazerBlue R56 2007 What you see is whats installed... after all, with MINIs, "it ain't no 10 second race"... it's about bending the rules and ruling the bends!
i'd say your right... if it weren't for the hundreds and hundreds of people who leave their cars stock and never touch springs or shocks and after 120,000+ miles (which my uncle has 200,000 on his STILL stock R53) the shocks and springs are still fine ....
How do you define "still fine"? NO shock is working properly at 200k miles. In fact by that point, it's probably doing nothing at all, the springs are doing all the work.
Shocks gradually wear out (when they don't outright fail, such as via a leak). So can you drive on shocks for crazy-high miles? Sure. Are they doing their job at that point? No. The cheaper the shock, the less time it's gonna last. A fine product like Koni or Bilstein is going to last a helluva long time, hence the lifetime warranty to the original purchaser. An OEM shock, bought by the boatload for installation on a relatively low-cost car (such as the MINI), is a much lower-quality part that's built to a price point.
The only way to quantify any of this would be to take shocks of various age and test them on a shock dyno and test their effectiveness. But rest assured, your stock shocks are probably significantly shot by 30k-50k miles, and if the car has been lowered, likely MUCH sooner.
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'10 MCS "Jethro". All PW, aero kit, carbon black lounge leather, anthracite h/l, Cream White c/l, convenience, cold weather, xenon, rear fogs, nav, h/k sound, white turns, H&R touring cup kit, BBS LM's (aka "Let's Motor"), Michelin Pilot Exalto PE2's. '07 Z4M Coupe, bone stock.
i feel bad for those with lowering springs then and no aftermarket shocks...
out of pure curiosity given a $1200 budget would you go for JCW suspension kit or konis/bilsteins with lowering springs?
and aren't the shocks on the mini KYBs stock? that's a sister company to Sachs who maeks the shocks that BMW uses on its M3... and they only need replacement after 50k on average... and if your shocks wear out after warrantee is gone... most people upgrade anyway to a Koni or Bilstein stock replacement.
ps my uncle is SERIOUSLY not me hahahah (i hold your stance of changing every 40k or so... something is strange with his shocks though... they must be mini replacements or something cuz i looked at them and they have the stickers of a stock mini shock... but the car doesn't dive or anything under braking so they are working as they're supposed to...)
__________________ JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
LazerBlue R56 2007 What you see is whats installed... after all, with MINIs, "it ain't no 10 second race"... it's about bending the rules and ruling the bends!
i feel bad for those with lowering springs then and no aftermarket shocks...
out of pure curiosity given a $1200 budget would you go for JCW suspension kit or konis/bilsteins with lowering springs?
and aren't the shocks on the mini KYBs stock? that's a sister company to Sachs who maeks the shocks that BMW uses on its M3... and they only need replacement after 50k on average... and if your shocks wear out after warrantee is gone... most people upgrade anyway to a Koni or Bilstein stock replacement.
ps my uncle is SERIOUSLY not me hahahah (i hold your stance of changing every 40k or so... something is strange with his shocks though... they must be mini replacements or something cuz i looked at them and they have the stickers of a stock mini shock... but the car doesn't dive or anything under braking so they are working as they're supposed to...)
Delphi Shocks on 2009 june 30 build date jcw without sports suspension.
out of pure curiosity given a $1200 budget would you go for JCW suspension kit or konis/bilsteins with lowering springs?
I personally will go with Koni FSD's and H&R springs.
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and aren't the shocks on the mini KYBs stock? that's a sister company to Sachs who maeks the shocks that BMW uses on its M3... and they only need replacement after 50k on average...
Where did you hear that KYB is a BMW OEM? I'm quite sure that's not true. KYB is a japanese company. And their shocks are pretty generally regarded as garbage. Sachs is the M3 OEM, and also on my Z4M Coupe, which shares much of the drivetrain, suspension and brakes with the E46 M3.
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'10 MCS "Jethro". All PW, aero kit, carbon black lounge leather, anthracite h/l, Cream White c/l, convenience, cold weather, xenon, rear fogs, nav, h/k sound, white turns, H&R touring cup kit, BBS LM's (aka "Let's Motor"), Michelin Pilot Exalto PE2's. '07 Z4M Coupe, bone stock.
JP (the man) & Blue Bomber (the MINI)
