Stock Sport Suspension question

TheBigNewt · #1 10-19-2009, 02:22 PM

I have a specific question for suspension modders. The MiniUSA site current configurator says you get thicker sway bars with the SS. It says nothing about different springs/dampers. But the ads before you get to config say the SS gets you stronger springs/dampers and says nothing about ASB. Mods on the R56 forum swear the upgrade includes all 3 parts based on how the suspension feels. I'm skeptical because of what the config says that you get. If you really do get upgraded springs/dampers/bars I'd think they would tout that to get your $500. And why spring $2,000 (installed) for the JCW suspension if you get upgrades like that for $500? So my question is: Do any of the people who supply aftermarket R56 suspension parts know for sure what you get with the stock sport suspension? I know the part numbers are supposedly different. Somebody has to know this.

PeterGibbons316 · #2 10-19-2009, 02:59 PM

I'm also interested in this. My dealer actually recommended that I don't get the sport package because it only comes with a thicker sway and is barely noticable unless you are really pushing the car. I don't trust the salesman on the floor anymore than the salesmen that write the specs on the website. Hopefully someone here has seen them both first hand and can confirm that they are the same/different.

MotorMouth · #3 10-19-2009, 06:49 PM

Don't bother answering. He won't believe you if you tell him it has different shocks and springs.

For PeterGIbbons (newt, I know you'll ignore anything after this line)

It changes sways, shocks, and springs. The difference is very noticeable. I have extensive experience with both.

PeterGibbons316 · #4 10-19-2009, 07:31 PM

What then is the difference between the Sport Suspension ($500) and the JCW Sport Suspension ($1255)?

I must admit that I am skeptical that a $500 suspension package includes shocks and springs as those two items on their own would typically run at least $1000 aftermarket. I would also be upset with my dealer for not knowing what the package included as I would have certainly ordered it had I known it came with shocks and springs. I suppose I could still order it and have it installed separately, but that would still suck.

MotorMouth · #5 10-19-2009, 07:53 PM

Peter,
Don't forget to subtract the cost of the standard shocks and springs that don't get put onto the car when you figure out how much MINI pays for the sports suspension. The sports suspension probably costs MINI less than $100 over than the standard suspension. So that $500 you pay for it becomes a big profit item for MINI.

The JCW suspension costs more for two reasons:

MINI had to buy your original suspension they put into the car at the factory. You don't get a "core credit" for your old suspension when buying the JCW suspension.

2nd: It is the high end brand. Why do LUCKY jeans cost twice as much as Levis? Are they really twice as good?
For $1500 you can get an great set of aftermarket coilovers that will be better than the JCW suspension (minus warranty). Personally, I don't care for the JCW suspension as it is too stiff and rough for me. The JCW suspension DOES have great handling though.

The actual differences between the sports suspension and JCW suspension are basically the same as the difference between the regular suspension and the sports suspension. The JCW does give a a little bit of a drop though.

**Splattj** · #6 10-20-2009, 06:08 AM

When I pulled my sports suspension, the struts/shocks had barcode labels identifying them as SPORT. I know that's not definitive proof that they're different, but the factory does differentiate the parts.

PeterGibbons316 · #7 10-20-2009, 09:26 AM

I did notice that on the site under the standard cooper (non-S) they have the following quote under features and specs: "For even more aggressive performance, the optional Sport Suspension features even more aggressive springs and dampers." But in the MCS section it isn't there. Perhaps you can upgrade the non-S to MCS suspension for $500? When building them though they both appear to have the same $500 sport suspension package with the same description: "Our sport suspension uses thicker anti-sway bars to help deliver a tightly tuned ride, especially on the aggressive bends and corners."

I emailed both my dealer as well as the miniusa website hoping to get some answers.

Right now I am pretty disappointed since my Mini is already built and it looks like I might have been able to have had upgraded shocks and springs for just $500.

Anyone know if I might still be able to order the package and have the dealership install it before I purchase?

MotorMouth · #8 10-20-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterGibbons316

Right now I am pretty disappointed since my Mini is already built and it looks like I might have been able to have had upgraded shocks and springs for just $500.

Anyone know if I might still be able to order the package and have the dealership install it before I purchase?

Peter, I hope you didn't skip the sports suspension because someone on NAM told you it is only sway bars.

It would not be worth paying the dealer to install the sports suspension unless you want to pay almost as much as the JCW suspension.

PeterGibbons316 · #9 10-20-2009, 11:42 AM

Here is the response I got from the dealer.....

The only difference is the "Rear Swaybar" and hardened Bushings and urethane spring cups instead of rubber front and rear. It is the same shocks and springs. The only sport suspension that comes with different Shocks and springs is the JCW suspension kit Parts $1255 + Labor $1485. If you are looking to improve the handling the best bang for your buck would be a Strut tower brace $380 Installed, and replace the run flat tires with a set of radial track tires. Even with those you are talking maybe a 10th of a second in track times. Are you considering Tracking the MINI? If so I would not use MINI OEM equipment anyway. The Stock Suspension will over power any OEM radial tire in the first place. I am not sure how hard you drove the other day but dont let speculation taint the performance of a stock S. I have been here for six years and have spent many hours testing and at the track. There is no way I would sacrifice the ride of my daily driver for the few times it may see the track.
" If you are wanting to build a track car, we have the experience and connections to do so. Please let me know.

TheBigNewt · #10 10-20-2009, 12:01 PM

Thanks for looking into this PeterGibbons316. I've paid attention to various threads/comments about this since I bought my car in April, 07. As you've noted Mini's webiste is contradictory and what tends to happen in forum threads is people defend what they bought. That's pretty universal on any forum anywhere, be it iPhone, Blackberry, Mini, you name it. I test drove a MCS with the SS but how much can one tell driving a short Scottsdale street/freeway loop with an MA, me driving a Mini for the first times coming from a Jeep Grand Cherokee lol? After a year I bought a 19mm rear swaybar and noticed a distinct decrease in understeer/body roll with my stock RF tires. Then I got regular tires and the ride became less harsh with a bit more steering wheel effort required for turn-in but not any perceived difference in cornering traction. I opted not to lower my car with aftermarket springs for practical reasons although I like the look of cars that have it. Again, thanks for looking further.

slinger688 · #11 10-20-2009, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterGibbons316

Here is the response I got from the dealer.....

The only difference is the "Rear Swaybar" and hardened Bushings and urethane spring cups instead of rubber front and rear. It is the same shocks and springs. The only sport suspension that comes with different Shocks and springs is the JCW suspension kit Parts $1255 + Labor $1485. If you are looking to improve the handling the best bang for your buck would be a Strut tower brace $380 Installed, and replace the run flat tires with a set of radial track tires. Even with those you are talking maybe a 10th of a second in track times. Are you considering Tracking the MINI? If so I would not use MINI OEM equipment anyway. The Stock Suspension will over power any OEM radial tire in the first place. I am not sure how hard you drove the other day but dont let speculation taint the performance of a stock S. I have been here for six years and have spent many hours testing and at the track. There is no way I would sacrifice the ride of my daily driver for the few times it may see the track.
" If you are wanting to build a track car, we have the experience and connections to do so. Please let me know.

Which dealer is this?

I think there is still some misinfomation here. Particular, the front sway is also changed. I am also not sure how a stock suspension overpowers the tire.

MotorMouth · #12 10-20-2009, 01:05 PM

I am flabbergasted that someone who works for MINI could be so stupid.

I want to know which dealer this is too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clueless dealer

If you are looking to improve the handling the best bang for your buck would be a Strut tower brace

What a load of crap. You won't notice any difference with the brace.

Seriously Peter,

Which dealer gave you this load of BS?

Everything except the pricing is out of touch with reality.

MotorMouth · #13 10-20-2009, 01:26 PM

Actually this guy makes me so

that I have to break it down line by line:

Quote:

The only difference is the "Rear Swaybar" and hardened Bushings and urethane spring cups instead of rubber front and rear.

Replace "only difference " with "some of the differences", add front sway bar, then that line is correct.

Quote:

It is the same shocks and springs.

Just flat wrong.

Quote:

The only sport suspension that comes with different Shocks and springs is the JCW suspension kit Parts $1255 + Labor $1485.

still wrong. although prices may be correct. labor price seems high.

Quote:

If you are looking to improve the handling the best bang for your buck would be a Strut tower brace $380 Installed,

You aren't going to notice anything other than a placebo affect with the strut bar unless you are doing some SERIOUS track racing. I'm not sure the cost of the bar itself offhand but labor takes less than 5 minutes and involves 6 easily reached nuts.

Quote:

and replace the run flat tires with a set of radial track tires. Even with those you are talking maybe a 10th of a second in track times.

10th of a second? what kinda of fisher price track is he talking about? track tires are worth 2 full seconds on a 30-40 second autocross track. On a longer road track they'd be worth much more.

Quote:

Are you considering Tracking the MINI? If so I would not use MINI OEM equipment anyway. The Stock Suspension will over power any OEM radial tire in the first place.

Why would he recommend using better aftermarket equipment if the stock suspension is better than the tires can handle? (note: I recommend better suspension because any tires WILL perform better with a better suspension)

Quote:

I have been here for six years and have spent many hours testing and at the track. There is no way I would sacrifice the ride of my daily driver for the few times it may see the track.

Do you see the problem with this part? he says he spends a lot of time at the track yet in the same breath he says the few times it may see the track?

Quote:

" If you are wanting to build a track car, we have the experience and connections to do so. Please let me know.

He may have the connections but he sure as he11 doesn't have the knowledge.

Seriously, PM me his name and dealership he works for.

MotorMouth · #14 10-20-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigNewt

what tends to happen in forum threads is people defend what they bought.

You've proven this. Believe what you will but STOP giving suspension "advice". Especially to people who are ordering cars and looking for advice on regular vs. sports suspension. You are leading them to a wrong conclusion at worst and confusing them at best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotorMouth

Don't bother answering. He won't believe you if you tell him it has different shocks and springs..

I hate to have to say it, but I told you so.

TheBigNewt · #15 10-20-2009, 01:57 PM

The MCS configurator leads me to believe you get both front/rear sway bars. Here's all it says when you select the sport suspension option (note the word bars in plural):
"Our Sport Suspension uses thicker antisway bars to help deliver a tightly tuned ride, especially on the aggressive bends and corners."
The much more expensive JCW kit also has front/rear bars. I was not able to find any thicker R56 front antisway bars from other vendors when I looked. The dudes said that the car wants to understeer and a thicker rear bar helps with that but a thicker front bar makes it worse, hence the absence of front swaybar products. I've never heard great things about strut tower braces but I've never driven a car with one either. Who knows?

Robin Casady · #16 10-20-2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterGibbons316

I did notice that on the site under the standard cooper (non-S) they have the following quote under features and specs: "For even more aggressive performance, the optional Sport Suspension features even more aggressive springs and dampers." But in the MCS section it isn't there. Perhaps you can upgrade the non-S to MCS suspension for $500? When building them though they both appear to have the same $500 sport suspension package with the same description: "Our sport suspension uses thicker anti-sway bars to help deliver a tightly tuned ride, especially on the aggressive bends and corners."

I get a different result from the Configurator. For both the MC and MCS it only mentions

Quote:

I emailed both my dealer as well as the miniusa website hoping to get some answers.

Right now I am pretty disappointed since my Mini is already built and it looks like I might have been able to have had upgraded shocks and springs for just $500.

Anyone know if I might still be able to order the package and have the dealership install it before I purchase?

As said, you would have to pay labor to have it installed. You would probably be better off going after-market. However, that could void the warranty on suspension related parts. Drive the car awhile before doing anything to the suspension. Once you know there aren't any problems, then go aftermarket. Look at the posts by Dr. Obnxs. The thread on camber plates is interesting. Also, tires seem to be the most important mod.

PeterGibbons316 · #17 10-20-2009, 02:27 PM

Honestly I'm not going to worry about it. I'm not certain at this point I would be able to do anything about it since the car has already been built anyway. The car is for my wife anyway and I'm sure she would rather have the nicer ride than a nicer suspension. I would only want it for the half dozen or so times I would autocross it a year anyway.

If it were going to be my car then I would probably pursue this a bit more.

Still, I hope I get an official response as to why the statements on the miniusa site conflict relatively quickly.

PeterGibbons316 · #18 10-20-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin Casady

I get a different result from the Configurator. For both the MC and MCS it only mentions

The first is in a different area of the site. When you first get to miniusa click on "Learn" in the upper left instead of "Build". Then go to the features and specs and then performance. It should bring up a picture of a Mini to the right and in the picture are some other links once of which says "Performance Suspension" I think and it talks about it there. This is only on the MC, not the MCS though.

Robin Casady · #19 10-20-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotorMouth

[COLOR=Black]Actually this guy makes me so

that I have to break it down line by line:

...
Just flat wrong.

...
still wrong.

Just saying it is wrong doesn't advance the discussion. You need to show why it is wrong, and reference a source. Otherwise, it is just an unsubstantiated claim.

I agree with you that the front strut bar has little noticeable effect (I have the JCW strut bar). It was $275 and I installed it myself. Too much money for a little engine bay bling. However, just because he may be wrong about the strut bar doesn't prove anything about his other comments. They would have to be refuted item by item with substantiated arguments.

PeterGibbons316 · #20 10-20-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin Casady

Just saying it is wrong doesn't advance the discussion. You need to show why it is wrong, and reference a source. Otherwise, it is just an unsubstantiated claim.

I agree with you that the front strut bar has little noticeable effect (I have the JCW strut bar). It was $275 and I installed it myself. Too much money for a little engine bay bling. However, just because he may be wrong about the strut bar doesn't prove anything about his other comments. They would have to be refuted item by item with substantiated arguments.

^Yeah that

So far I have no reason to believe any of you over him. Truth by repetition doesn't cut it for me.

MotorMouth · #21 10-20-2009, 02:50 PM

I seriously don't know why I bother at this point.

Believe what you will. Get a regular suspension, throw on a sway bar, and think you have the same thing as the sports suspension. Meanwhile you can blame your slower lap times on your driving skills (which is probably 90% of the fault anyway).

Just please STOP advising other people with your ignorant opinions on the sports suspension.

From websters:
ig⋅no⋅rant

–adjective 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man. 2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics. 3. uninformed; unaware. 4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

PeterGibbons316 · #22 10-20-2009, 03:15 PM

I don't believe anything. I want to actually KNOW. So far I haven't seen anything factual either way. Why should anyone believe you over the next guy? Rather than getting all huffy why not cite some evidence or explain to us how you have come to KNOW yourself?

MotorMouth · #23 10-20-2009, 03:24 PM

Some stuff you want to SEE is classified confidential and can't be shown without someone losing their job.

Just as most people think there is no drop with the sports suspension in reality if you could SEE the classified confidential materials you'd know there is a 2mm spec difference (although there are tolerances that could allow for overlap).

I've said enough. I am not allowed show you the things to prove my words.

As I said, believe what you want. Listen to ignorant folks if you want.

TheBigNewt · #24 10-20-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotorMouth

Some stuff you want to SEE is classified confidential and can't be shown without someone losing their job.

Just as most people think there is no drop with the sports suspension in reality if you could SEE the classified confidential materials you'd know there is a 2mm spec difference (although there are tolerances that could allow for overlap).

I've said enough. I am not allowed show you the things to prove my words.

As I said, believe what you want. Listen to ignorant folks if you want.

Aw cut it out already, you made me spit my Coke all over the screen

.

Btwyx · #25 10-20-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterGibbons316

I did notice that on the site under the standard cooper (non-S) they have the following quote under features and specs: "For even more aggressive performance, the optional Sport Suspension features even more aggressive springs and dampers." But in the MCS section it isn't there. Perhaps you can upgrade the non-S to MCS suspension for $500? When building them though they both appear to have the same $500 sport suspension package with the same description: "Our sport suspension uses thicker anti-sway bars to help deliver a tightly tuned ride, especially on the aggressive bends and corners."

I see that for both the MC and the MCS.

We have the sport suspension in both our MINIs. I can't say I noticed any particular difference on MINIs which may not have had the sport suspension (like rentals where I didn't know what the setup was), at least on the street. I did think that the sport suspension in the MCS felt a slight bit stiffer than the MC, but after living with them, and tracking both of them, I'm not convinced there much if any difference between them (that is beween MC+SS and MCS+SS). Cornering speeds are pretty much the same for both. I've never tried tracking a MINI which didn't have sport suspension though.

As for the argument about there's better after market, there probably is, but I like to keep the MINIs pretty much stock. The sport suspension is as good as stock gets. I originally got the sport suspension after I read reviews which said the R56 suspension was soft, but the SS gave back the essential MINIness, I like the way our old R53 handled. The sport suspension works fine for me (with upgraded tires).