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So I am slowly modding my mini, and I am trying to figure out what suspension/handling mods you guys have had great success with.
My cooper (2003 R53) has almost 70k miles, and I'm looking at this stuff so far:
1) M7 front strut bar (to help with mushrooming)
2) Rear strut brace
3) Rear sway bar
4) Lower strut braces (or any other chassis braces)
5) Greenstuff brake pads with OEM style rotors (any better option than this? does the wilwood kit make a HUGE difference?)
If anyone could go through my numbered list with a 'yay' or 'nay' approach it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
m7 front brace, pass on
pass on rear strut brace
go for rear sway
for chassis brace the tsw made some difference
best of all change will be tires
I would also recommend camber plates
1. Alta 22mm rear sway bar
2. Set of summer high performance tires (several good ones to choose from)
3. Ireland Engineering fixed camber plates
4. Hawk HPS or Ceramics brake pads with stock rotors
front camber plates...
Good tires....
TSW X-brace
19 mm rear bar (or if you're adventurous, stock rear bar, and take off one of the front end-links).
The EBC Greens are a good pad for the street, because they run with a lot less dust. If you're goint to the track, you'll need more heat capacity than the stock system can deliver, then a BBK will be on the list.
Thank you all for the very quick replies. Much appreciated.
I think I need new rotors too, because the current rotors are getting quite thin. Would the TSW carbon rotors be a good bet? They seem to be a good deal at $219 for all four (http://autoxcooper.com/tsw_suspension.html#tswcr). I think that's even cheaper than OEM. If not those, can you point me to a better set?
Also, will the camber plates be an issue if one of my strut towers has mushroomed?
cause there's not a lot of room for motion with the stock struts. you lower the car, and then you'll find that you're bottoming the struts. there are some killer deals on used coil-overs in the marketplace. There are some $2k LEDAs that need rebuilds for $400. Rebuilding costs $400 more.... There are other deals on coil-overs there as well....
So I am slowly modding my mini, and I am trying to figure out what suspension/handling mods you guys have had great success with.
My cooper (2003 R53) has almost 70k miles, and I'm looking at this stuff so far:
1) M7 front strut bar (to help with mushrooming)
2) Rear strut brace
3) Rear sway bar
4) Lower strut braces (or any other chassis braces)
5) Greenstuff brake pads with OEM style rotors (any better option than this? does the wilwood kit make a HUGE difference?)
If anyone could go through my numbered list with a 'yay' or 'nay' approach it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
How do you intend to use the car? Autox, Track Days / HPDE, just DD?
Dr. O has a good point with the coilovers if that is a route you want to follow. At 70k miles you do need to think about replacing worn parts and not just mods. The struts probably need to be replaced. If you do struts or coilovers, you are going to have your suspension apart (and will probably need to replace the possibly worn upper strut mounts) now would be the time to do camber plates to balance out the camber side to side. The Ireland Engineering adjustable camber plates are a good option for that.
So, skip 1 & 2. If you have enough money after the above ( and a good alignment from a competent shop ), think about #3 and 4.
For brakes, if you aren't tracking the car 10 times a year and running in the Advanced Group, you don't need Wilwoods or bigger brakes. Get some rotors and good pads. I like the Centric rotors (parent company of StopTech) and Axxis Ultimate pads from here: http://store.zeckhausen.com/catalog/...th=499_500_891
Of course Carbotech and Hawk also have good pads that I'd recommend over the EBC pads.
__________________
2006 MCSa
1993 RX7 - track car and weekend warrior
I would go with coilovers, but I heard that they are brutal in terms of ride quality. Is this true? I live in new england, where it is cold and the pavement can get pretty bumpy. I also heard that coilovers are prone to rusting, especially in areas where the roads are salted (new england...).
Would I be best off just going with koni yellows + springs?
I would go with coilovers, but I heard that they are brutal in terms of ride quality. Is this true? I live in new england, where it is cold and the pavement can get pretty bumpy. I also heard that coilovers are prone to rusting, especially in areas where the roads are salted (new england...).
Would I be best off just going with koni yellows + springs?
In my experience, the answer to your question is yes. I'm a former NY'er now in CA so I know the roads you speak of and the weather you deal with and its effects on parts that aren't specifically treated to deal with those elements.
When I discussed this with Alex at Tire Rack and a bunch of other people who sell these parts for a living (and know what they are talking about), most shocks spec'ed for coilovers are more aggressive since most people using coilovers use them for motorsport activities. Even Konis w/ lowering springs should provide better ride quality than some coilovers.
Ride quality is subjective but some generalities can be made.
I lived in NYC when we bought our Mini and I specifically ordered it with the 16" wheels and sport suspension to try and make ride tolerable and not bend rims and bubble tires while still having a sporty suspension. I'm installing Koni yellows and some camber plates (either IE or Vorshlag) on my stock sport springs. FWIW, I'm in my late 30s, have been modding cars for 20 years and racing and tracking cars and karts for just as long.
__________________
2006 MCSa
1993 RX7 - track car and weekend warrior
and the adjustment on them is from wayyyyyyy too soft to wayyyyyy to firm, and any good set of rebuildable coil overs can be valved to specific need. keep in mind that damping rates are mostly set by spring rates (not exactly, but you damp in a small window around a spring rate specific point).
As far as materials, in general aftermarket performance parts need more care and feeding than stock street parts (before I get flamed, yes there are exceptions), it's the nature of the beast. That said, you can find coil-overs that are made with stainless steel bodies that will do relatively better than some other materials when it comes to nasty environments.
Now, from you questions I'd guess that you're relatively new to the modding game (if I'm wrong please forgive me). If this is the case, partner up with a good shop that's near to you so that they can guide your purchases and help make sure that the parts you end up with will work well together. Also, there are some classic books on handling out there that are worth many times thier purchase price when it comes to the increase in systems theory comprehension. knowledge is power, for sure.
Getting a suspension set up that works for you is a long iterative process. The function and settings of what you use are highly coupled to your particular driving style. To put it bluntly, there's no guarantee that what works for someone else will work well for you.
That said, really, the best mod is driver training. Out of the box the Mini chassis has more potential than most of us can really use. Spending the time and effort on performance driving instruction will allow you to get more out of what's there, and the skills transfer to any car you drive. Performance parts only help the car they are bolted to.
That said, really, the best mod is driver training. Out of the box the Mini chassis has more potential than most of us can really use. Spending the time and effort on performance driving instruction will allow you to get more out of what's there, and the skills transfer to any car you drive. Performance parts only help the car they are bolted to.
just some things to keep in mind.
Matt
Well my only current mod is a small skip barber sticker on my rear window. I completed their racing school recently, and I can't even put into words how much I learned. I had the opportunity to drive a spec miata and an open-wheeled formula car, so I have some understanding of what highly tuned (albeit very twitchy) cars behave like at the limit.
With that said, I think that the Mini is one of the absolute best handling cars in the world. We also have a mazda miata, and I feel that the mini handles better.
Frankly, I have no gripes about handling. I just wanted to know if I could make it even better. The only thing I have noticed is that the car doesn't react particularly quickly or precisely to mid-corner throttle inputs. One thing we learned at skip barber was to steer with our right foot, and the car feels a bit numb in such situations. I think a rear swaybar will help out a lot here.
1. Koni Yellows
2. TSW linear springs
3. Ireland Engimeering fixed front camber plates
4. H-Sport 25mm rear anti-roll bar. (set on soft setting most of the time)
5. Stock MCS front anti-roll bar
6. PowerFlex lower control arm bushings
7. Non run flats
8. Precision alignment.
Frankly, I have no gripes about handling. I just wanted to know if I could make it even better. The only thing I have noticed is that the car doesn't react particularly quickly or precisely to mid-corner throttle inputs. One thing we learned at skip barber was to steer with our right foot, and the car feels a bit numb in such situations. I think a rear swaybar will help out a lot here.
Keep in mind the MINI is FWD, so if you step on the gas you are going to plow. I suggest going to a few AutoX's with the MINI and talking to whoever is setting fast times in FWD cars. If you want your car to turn a bit hard you can "trail brake" which is leaving the brakes on slightly as you make your turn in, thus increasing the weight over the front, increasing grip. That however is a tricky skill to master.
__________________ '05 HB/B MCS.
With: LED lit scoop - DIY AUX cable - Angel Eye running lights - M7 STB - Air horn - Rally Lights -SVT Focus LSD - Poly Control arm bushings - IE fixed plates
UCONN FSAE Engine Systems Head '10-present
UCONN FSAE dyno testing and tuning lead '09-10: www.uconnracing.com
Follow UCONN FSAE on twitter: http://twitter.com/UCONNFSAE
1. Camber Plates (fixed or adjustable).
Will prevent mushrooming and add negative camber for better handling.
2. Good Tires and Light Wheels
3. Shorter Springs and new Shocks
Better looks, stiffer suspension, and better dampening.
4. Alignment to your specs.
More negative fron camber and less toe in.
5. Lower strut brace (such as TSW X-Brace or Mini-Madness brace).
6. Rear Sway Bar (if you still think you need it)
I use the Hawk HPS pads for the street. You only need BBK if you plan to do track days.
__________________
2006 MCS JCW GP #1405: Adj Front Camber Plates, 19mm Rear Sway Bar, MM Front Lower Brace, Milltek Cat-Back, TCE 13" Front/11.75" Rear BBK, 15mm Spacers, Wheel Studs, JCM Modified Intake, MM Filter, Gauges
I feel like doing a bigger rear bar when you only have the stock alignment of -.4 degrees or whatever of front camber is like getting a running a GT35R turbo set-up on a 2 inch diameter exhaust. Or having a mouthwatering steak with a glass of Beast Ice. Or finding a girl with a perfect face and a.....well maybe i won't finish that one.
Yeah it might feel nice (especially if you haven't gotten it in a while) and it might be better than nothing, but to do it right you got to get some front camber in there and finish the job. Otherwise you'll just be hating yourself in the morning. Wait what are we talking about?
With that said, I think that the Mini is one of the absolute best handling cars in the world. We also have a mazda miata, and I feel that the mini handles better.
Frankly, I have no gripes about handling. I just wanted to know if I could make it even better. The only thing I have noticed is that the car doesn't react particularly quickly or precisely to mid-corner throttle inputs. One thing we learned at skip barber was to steer with our right foot, and the car feels a bit numb in such situations. I think a rear swaybar will help out a lot here.
The RSB will help the rear end rotate and reduce or eliminate understeer. But as others have mentioned using throttle inputs to steer a FWD car is not how it's done. You use the streering wheel and throttle lifts and trail braking as mentioned. If you're at the limits in a turn with a FWD car and you need to turn more just a throttle lift (or if your car is not close to neutral you may need to lightly tap the brakes) to loosen the rear, rotate then add throttle when you're pointed where you want to go.
I found when the Mini is closest to neutral it becomes VERY responsive when at the limits. A RSB IMHO is the only way to get the Mini to a neutral handling state, (added rear tire pressure comes close but that only works for autox and tracks you wouldn't want to run around town with 50+ psi in the rear tires).
I installed the RSB first and got the Mini as close to neutral as I could (which turned out was really close but just on the understeer side with the adjustment on the softest setting). I went from there with my mods based on autox performance.
My current setup is;
Helix camber plates set to -2 deg camber
Alta 22MM adj RSB on mid setting
H-sport 26MM FSB on soft setting
Koni yellows full stiff front 7/8 stiff rear
TSW linear springs
H-sport rear adj lower control arms set to -1.8 deg camber
M7 front strut tower brace
Pilo racing Rear strut tower brace
Still can't beat an ST 89 Civic SI but that's the only thing that can beat me in my class!
Hope this helps.
__________________
Life moves pretty fast...Driving a MINI..slows everything down but you!
there has been some pretty solid advice in this thread. the OP didn't, however, state what his goal was for the car. spririted street, auto-X, track? they all require different setups. then there is the factor of driver preference on top of that.
there are many ways of reducing/eliminating the factory understeer. adding camber is my first choice. i run -2.4 front, -1.4 rear. i run a 19mm RSB on the middle setting. i also run equal tire pressures front/rear (most of the time). i have the M7 understrut system. the car is pretty neutral. i can induce oversteer w/ lift-throttle or trail braking very easily on the track. the car will also understeer if i get on the throttle too early (easily correctable w/ the right foot).
as has been said before, no one setup will work for everyone in every environment. choose you mods so that you have some adjustability, then drive the s*&t out of it. it will all become apparent.
Well my only current mod is a small skip barber sticker on my rear window. I completed their racing school recently, and I can't even put into words how much I learned. I had the opportunity to drive a spec miata and an open-wheeled formula car, so I have some understanding of what highly tuned (albeit very twitchy) cars behave like at the limit.
With that said, I think that the Mini is one of the absolute best handling cars in the world. We also have a mazda miata, and I feel that the mini handles better.
Frankly, I have no gripes about handling. I just wanted to know if I could make it even better. The only thing I have noticed is that the car doesn't react particularly quickly or precisely to mid-corner throttle inputs. One thing we learned at skip barber was to steer with our right foot, and the car feels a bit numb in such situations. I think a rear swaybar will help out a lot here.
Congrats on the Skip Barber school.
I agree that the Mini's handling is impressive for a FWD car. It is the only one I have enjoyed since my 83 GTI. I've been oddly satisfied with the stock suspension for aggressive street duty which is why I personally have been very conservative to changes or mods.
Regarding the slower than desired reactions and mid corner response to throttle inputs, I think that is b/c of the stock springs. One of the benefits of stiffer springs is that they do help the car react quicker to inputs since they help to decrease body roll and response to throttle and steering inputs. That has been my experience anyway.
The rear sway bar will also help adjust overall "balance" of the car and the ability to rotate mid corner. However since my suspension is stock, I can only speculate as to whether it would help as much as springs. Maybe Dr. O or someone knowledgable can comment further on that.
There is no free lunch though. As you make the car stiffer, the DD ride quality decreases. Some people can happily live with the trade off. Since I don't track my car, I'm sticking with the stock springs w/ Konis and camber plates.
__________________
2006 MCSa
1993 RX7 - track car and weekend warrior
While the OP hasn't really stated his intentions, it sounds like he's looking to keep it street-only, improve the balance and chassis communication and not knock his fillings out.
Things to avoid:
*lowering springs that eliminate compression travel
*chassis braces and trinkets that don't help - if you want a stiffer chassis install a roll bar
*stock brake pads or worse
Things that help:
*coilovers that have plenty of stroke for your usual roads
*camber plates that don't fall apart
*brake kits that aren't worse than stock
*R56 rear trailing arms
*Front control arm bushings that are spherical bearings
*anti-roll bars that help dynamic weight transfer according to your application and tires
*rear control arms to fix camber
A) Lots of aftermarket coilovers have less overall stroke than stock. This isn't a problem unless your roads aren't maintained like the Autobahn. KW appears to make the best overall solution for the MINI without spending thousands on a race-only setup. KW Variant 1 = fast street/stock ride quality; KW V2 = adds rebound adjustment for some auto-x/track tunability; KW V3 = adds compresssion adjustment for moderate track work; KW Clubsport for lots of track work. Buy your KW's from Texas Speedwerks for application-tuned damping curves and phenomenal customer support.
B) Vorshlag appears to make the best camber plates. BC, Cross, and JRZ also make excellent plates. All of these double as strut reinforcement plates, as well they should.
C) Texas Speedwerks, TCE, and Detroit Tuned make the best brake kits for the MINI. The little Wilwood kits aren't satisfactory in my experience for track work, however what wheel size you run may dictate how big or small your brakes can be. If you stick with stock calipers, buy Powerslot or ATE rotors as they are quality metal. Brake pads that are good include Ferodo 2500, Hawk HPS, and Porterfield R4S, all for fast-street use.
D) The R56 has a couple geometry changes over the R53 generation MINI. The big change that helps chassis predictability is the aluminum rear trailing arm. It shaves weight and uses an improved pivot geometry. It is a bolt on part assuming you get the matching bushing carrier, longer hub mounting bolts, and bottom control arm eccentric bolt hardware.
E) The stock front control arm bushing [FCAB] is utter crap. BMW really screwed up this one. It's spoked rubber that cracks and breaks in less than 30k miles. It's sloppy and wimpy. Add to that the funky rotation the front control arm goes through and it's a recipe for solid or rubber bushings to fail. You need either MINI-Madness' tubular front control arm with spherical bearing FCAB or settle on the ALTA PSRS that's been welded to the control arm. Install the PSRS in "half-n-half" position to add a bit of caster and remove a touch of anti-dive. This will improve on-center feel and improve forward-bite, but not add much torque steer as to feel like an R56. This is a major improvement in steering feel.
F) Only buy an anti-roll bar as stiff as the level of hardcore you are. This means you don't need to go and buy H-Sport Comp front and rear bars unless you plan on putting extreme summer or R-compound tires on your car. Generally you will only need a stiff rear swaybar, as the front has plenty of roll stiffness as-is. The H-Sport Comp rear bar is very good as a standalone piece in the softer settings, and it matches the TSW/KW V2 nicely. If you want a more compliant car however, a 19mm rear swaybar will match the overall character of the KW Variant 1's better without turning the MINI into a racecar you can't take the woman out on the town with.
G) The R56 rear control arm lower eccentric bolt can help tune your roll centers or your camber, but not independently. For that, you need at least a pair of rear control arms. Considering you have an '03, you have the uber flimsy rear control arms that are practically a safety issue, you should invest in a set of 4 rear control arms. Helix13 has the best in my experience because they're spherical heim joints and rubber booted to keep out Mother Nature, however spherical bearings in this application will transmit some NVH [noise/vibration/harshness]. If you don't get booted spherical bearings, get rubber bushed adjustable arms like the H-Sport arms.
That's what I've learned over the past 7 years tuning MINI's. It's an expensive solution but it'll make the MINI handle and feel better than a Cayman. If you need cheap we can figure something out there too.
'05 HB/B MCS. 
