You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!
I mean really, my '08 S is just a beast. And it throws me a curve ball nearly every launch I make on a turn out w/45-90 degree angle. I might be leaving a parking lot, etc. and when I give it the gas, the torque steer is enough to cause major pucker and land me in the wrong place. Love the Cooper, but damn this torque steer does suck. I think having AWD in the P-car is part of the problem, but even when I drive the Coop for a few days, I still have the same issue. And yeah, I could lay off the gas on the start/turn, but hell, it's just begging to go!
I have sport suspension, 17" crowners and crappy runflats. I've dropped the pressure about 4lbs, but still no change.
Not wanting to do extensive modifications. Something relatively simple, easy and non-warranty-voiding would be great.
Suggestions?
__________________
Eric Chief Plug Guy "Astro" born 6.11.08, delivery 6.30.08!
AB|W MCS | Cold | Sport | Convenience | Xenon | LSD | 6sp | AutoAC | Anthracite Head | Punch Carbon Black | Alarm | Hi Fi |
Fluid Silver | Rear Fogs |17" Crowners | White Signals | White Bonnet Stripes | Wheel Locks | Flaps | Black Mats | no kitchen sink
Wouldn;t lower the car on springs make the ride harsher, plus put the shocks out of there designed range? Plus there was a post about the u-joints going bad due to lowering, correct?
Would a strut bar help Eric's issue?....I know what he is talking about! I deal with it too...especially going from my P-Car to the Mini.
Not necessarily, lowering the car with a good spring that's not too low and not too stiff shouldn't unduly affect the joints, it's only lowering a large amount that can damage them, and too stiff a spring might damage the shocks over a long time (but it's unlikely). Strut braces help with chassis flex, which only really happens with you're cornering really hard...
__________________
Factory built 08/08 MINI JCW: JCW Aerokit, M7 C-Wing, Bilstein PSS10, Vorshlag camber plates, RennSport Racing Rear Upper and Lower Control Arms, Howerton Engineering HFS-3 w/ Race Tank, Whiteline 20mm RSB, RMW Tune, Dunlop Direzza Star Spec Z1, DoS CAI, Evolve FMIC, BSH OCC + Dual Boost Port, NM SSK, etalj-spec torque arm ;), Goodridge SS Brake Lines, Endless RF-650 fluid, Carbotech XP12s, ALTA PSRS, Powergrid adjustable endlinks, Challenge Decals
Thanks....one concern on lowering is the stiffness of the sport suspension already. Some of our roads kind of stink around here, and it can be a rough ride....don't want it any more harsh than it is. Would the H&R Springs add to this problem?
__________________
Eric Chief Plug Guy "Astro" born 6.11.08, delivery 6.30.08!
AB|W MCS | Cold | Sport | Convenience | Xenon | LSD | 6sp | AutoAC | Anthracite Head | Punch Carbon Black | Alarm | Hi Fi |
Fluid Silver | Rear Fogs |17" Crowners | White Signals | White Bonnet Stripes | Wheel Locks | Flaps | Black Mats | no kitchen sink
H&R springs are a little stiffer, but they shouldn't make it that much rougher, the only problem is the fact that you'll be lower might mean that you'll start scraping. But lots of people in the states seem to lower their cars quite a bit without too many problems. But there are springs out there with different specs.
I hear the the NM springs are fantastic for maintaining and even improving the ride quality, while being even better on the track, and lowering a decent amount (1.2" drop)
TSW is known for improving handling with a very mild drop (1"), so scraping is less of an issue.
Those two seem to be the favourites.
__________________
Factory built 08/08 MINI JCW: JCW Aerokit, M7 C-Wing, Bilstein PSS10, Vorshlag camber plates, RennSport Racing Rear Upper and Lower Control Arms, Howerton Engineering HFS-3 w/ Race Tank, Whiteline 20mm RSB, RMW Tune, Dunlop Direzza Star Spec Z1, DoS CAI, Evolve FMIC, BSH OCC + Dual Boost Port, NM SSK, etalj-spec torque arm ;), Goodridge SS Brake Lines, Endless RF-650 fluid, Carbotech XP12s, ALTA PSRS, Powergrid adjustable endlinks, Challenge Decals
I too have H&R springs that have been on for about a year and a half. The ride did get harsher but when I got rid of the runcraps the ride went back to about like it was. Except for its much more planted to the road and handles fantastically. Don't overlook a sway bar and the control arms. Check tirerack.com for spring prices I got mine from their and they were a good price. Make sure though you can get someone to help you or you can do it yourself. It will cost your about $500 to pay someone to do it, but its not real hard to do it if you have some help and a spring compressor.
__________________
'07 Astro Black MCS, 10% Tint, Minspeed Shorty Antenna, Forge CAI, Minspeed 19mm swaybar, H&R Springs, Alta turbo-back exhaust MINI Pictures
Thanks....one concern on lowering is the stiffness of the sport suspension already. Some of our roads kind of stink around here, and it can be a rough ride....don't want it any more harsh than it is. Would the H&R Springs add to this problem?
YES!!! I tried lowering springs with the sport suspension and turning my spine into the primary shock absorber got old fast. Dips become brutal. 2" of travel stock, with 1.2" lowering springs leaves you with .8" of travel, not quite enough with the sport shocks.
The biggest improvement will come from very sticky tires and the wider the better. People have fit 8" wide wheels and 245 width tires using spacers. Larger wheels and lower profile tires can help too as the shorter more rigid side walls will flex less and maintain better contact on most surfaces.
A better shock and spring setup will reduce front end lift and keep the wheels more in contact with the road. TSW springs are slightly lower in the front, adding to the rake, which can help with the understeer/torque steer effects. Koni shocks will perform much better than the sport shocks. For less hassle but a one-stop-shop solution with warranty coverage intact, the JCW suspension is a very good option. That's what I have. All of these options will be stiffer than the sport suspension but still offer a better ride and at least to me are actually more comfortable overall. I was extremely dissappointed with the sport suspension. It was a total waste of money to me.
The lower control arm bushing upgrade is a great investment to me but I don't believe it really addresses this problem noticeably.
there was a post a while back from reyphile, it seems like the front control arm bushings are the culprit for the tracking/torque steer. It's not really torque steer, but more of deflecting suspension geometry under torque.
lowering does help a bit, but your best bet would be to get the front control arm bushings replaced. That's on my list, probably buying them when I switch to coilovers.
but if you just want springs, the NM springs are incredible. I have some minor tracking still, but it's definitely reduced, and the ride quality is great. General cruising seems softer, but as expected, harsh bumps are harder then stock. They handle great too.
I think the best mod for removing the torque steer is installing a 22mm rear sway bar. I don't feel torque steer any more and I get less understeer too. Cost is about $225 installed.
OK, had a good chat with my buddy Damon at Tire Rack. Stockers are 205/45/17 runflats (hate 'em). He recommends Bridgestone 760's or Michelin PE2's, 215/45/17. Anyone done this, or care to comment on one vs the other?
As for control arm bushings, if anyone has done this, please detail what you did and what changes you noticed...would greatly appreciate it.
Note into the x-brace folks too...
Thanks!
__________________
Eric Chief Plug Guy "Astro" born 6.11.08, delivery 6.30.08!
AB|W MCS | Cold | Sport | Convenience | Xenon | LSD | 6sp | AutoAC | Anthracite Head | Punch Carbon Black | Alarm | Hi Fi |
Fluid Silver | Rear Fogs |17" Crowners | White Signals | White Bonnet Stripes | Wheel Locks | Flaps | Black Mats | no kitchen sink
OK, had a good chat with my buddy Damon at Tire Rack. Stockers are 205/45/17 runflats (hate 'em). He recommends Bridgestone 760's or Michelin PE2's, 215/45/17. Anyone done this, or care to comment on one vs the other?
As for control arm bushings, if anyone has done this, please detail what you did and what changes you noticed...would greatly appreciate it.
Note into the x-brace folks too...
Thanks!
Did you compare the price to the current star as I mentioned before? Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec?
You can try the Yokohama S.Drive if you don't want to spend that much...
Scion drivers truly have unique tastes. Thanks for that link. It was worth a good chuckle.
I had the front control arm bushings replaced almost a year ago. The OEM bushings are very soft and are that way to absorb vibrations from getting translated to the steering wheel. As a result I would imagine don't do a great job of keeping the wheels pointed in exactly the right direction and the variances in toe alignment could cause inconsistent traction between the front wheels and add to the torque steer effect in some situations. The stiffer replacement poly bushings or solid bushings address this issue and give you a much better feel through the steering wheel because the feedback you should be getting is there. It is primarily a steering feel and feedback modification and has an added bonus of keeping the wheels aligned. It won't solve torque steer by itself. The parts are cheap, I think under $100 for the pair, but the installation is very long and tedious since you have to lower the entire front sub frame to access the bushings and bolts to do the swap.
I think tire traction is still by far the best first step. The group I autocross with seems to favor the Bridgestone RE-11 and Dunlop Direzza Star Spec tires, but Tirerack is also an excellent source of knowledge and their recommendations should be good as well. On the stock wheels you can fit the 215's. Every bit of extra width helps.
Also, above all else driving technique is probably the biggest performance modification you can make. Getting the most out of the MINI will be very different than driving the all wheel drive car you are referring too. I'm certainly not trying to question your driving skill, but adjusting your style to the car is much cheaper than tuning the car to your style.
Lower the car at least 1" [>1.3" preferred] with decent to good coil-overs, install ALTA PSRS, and resist the urge to run tires that increase tramlining.
If you can only do one of the above, opt for the ALTA PSRS on "half-n-half" setting. The R56 needs more front anti-dive to help quench torque steer. Lowering the car helps reduce torque steer by lowering the roll center.
Another thing you can do is take advantage of the slight adjustment you can make to the front camber. Here is a link to a thread that explains how to do it. The difference will be very small but it's free
I've also stopped using the sport button because it makes the throttle too sensitive. I really notice it when I'm doing Autocross days. I am always fighting torque steer if I have sport mode on.
Torsional deflection is rotational movement about an axis.
I just wanted to get everyone on the same page.
IMHO, the X-brace is only going to control vertical axis torsional deflection. But from what I've been reading in this thread, the vertical axis seems to be the domiant factor for the mini's torque/bump steer. The control arm bushing would appear to also control deflection around the vertical axis.
Has anyone who has installed the x-brace not found a significant improvement in torque/bump steer? We need reports from everyone.
Lower the car at least 1" [>1.3" preferred] with decent to good coil-overs, install ALTA PSRS, and resist the urge to run tires that increase tramlining.
If you can only do one of the above, opt for the ALTA PSRS on "half-n-half" setting. The R56 needs more front anti-dive to help quench torque steer. Lowering the car helps reduce torque steer by lowering the roll center.
I don't follow how lowering the car has any positive affect on torque steer. But it seems like most people report that it does, so cool beans.
I agree replacing that front control arm bushing should make a large difference. Less deflection there is a good thing.
Reducing anti-lift should help reduce torque steer. Meaning more lift.
If the Alta PSRS lowers the front control arm rear mount, then it reduces anti-lift (meaning it lifts more). This is a good thing and means more grip coming out of corners, just completely not what Alta says in their description.
I found that I no longer veered sharply when hitting uneven surfaces and torque steer is almost completely gone. Turns feel more assured and I found the increase in rigidity to be immediately noticeable and pleasant.
I too have H&R springs that have been on for about a year and a half. The ride did get harsher but when I got rid of the runcraps the ride went back to about like it was. Except for its much more planted to the road and handles fantastically. Don't overlook a sway bar and the control arms. Check tirerack.com for spring prices I got mine from their and they were a good price. Make sure though you can get someone to help you or you can do it yourself. It will cost your about $500 to pay someone to do it, but its not real hard to do it if you have some help and a spring compressor.
Did you cut the bump stops at all?
__________________
2011 MCS - BRG II/Black - Convenience/Premium/Sport Packages : MINI Connected + Nav : Black Headlamps : Black Conical Wheels : Black Jack Side Scuttles : H&R Sport Springs : ALTA Lower Control Arms
