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I'm looking for the most cost effective way to improve handling on my justaCooper. I don't care for an aggressive drop, ~1" is fine. I would rather prefer a mild drop, to preserve suspension geometry.
But the utmost importance is handling, not aesthetics. Here are my plans:
Tires:205/50R16 Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec on stock alloys
Alignment: front: -1.5deg camber, 1/32" toe out ... rear: -0.75 deg camber, 1/32" toe out.
How is that for a neutral handling ride? Is this adjustable stock? Or require plates/camber kit?
Dampers: Koni Yellows or FSD? I hear Bilsteins are near works of art. Can any of these be custom damped for the springs I choose? I don't want to spend on coilovers, and I've heard coils aren't worth getting unless they're $1500+ anyway. Cheap coils are just for looks, and performance is my goal. I don't care for drops ... 1" would be perfect ....
Springs: Speaking of drops, the TSW Springs come to mind. Mild drop, linear spring rates, should do well with the yellows/fsd?
Anti-Sway Bars: IE 22mm Rear Sway Bar seems like the least expensive option. ~200 *including* endlinks However, it's hollow ...would it be less stiff than the other 22mm RSBs on the market? Alta 3way 22mm solid is $220, then the TSW rear end links are $150 for a pair ....
TSW springs, koni yellows or bilstein equivalent, the hollow 22mm (hollow is good cos you don't want something as stiff as a solid 22mm, that's too stiff for a cooper, especially one with 1.5 deg neg camber up front and toe out on the back. Also, having endlinks is a good idea).
Should be much more neutral with the rear bar, and TSW make great products.
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Factory built 08/08 MINI JCW: JCW Aerokit, M7 C-Wing, Bilstein PSS10, Vorshlag camber plates, RennSport Racing Rear Upper and Lower Control Arms, Howerton Engineering HFS-3 w/ Race Tank, Whiteline 20mm RSB, RMW Tune, Dunlop Direzza Star Spec Z1, DoS CAI, Evolve FMIC, BSH OCC + Dual Boost Port, NM SSK, etalj-spec torque arm ;), Goodridge SS Brake Lines, Endless RF-650 fluid, Carbotech XP12s, ALTA PSRS, Powergrid adjustable endlinks, Challenge Decals
I have the IE 22 mm adjustable sway bar (I think equivalent to 19mm) and think it works quite well. It gives you enough adjustability to give you oversteer (from acute understeer). And I still have one more inch to adjust to stiffen the back. While adjustment is not difficult, it requires some tweeking to remove squeaks. I do not think you really need more than this but others may disagree with this. Just depends on you driving style and your need to oversteer (and ability to handle oversteer).
You may already have camber plates to get a -1.5 camber. If not try the fixed camber plates as the adjustment for front camber is not so precise and alignments may be more frequent and expensive.
You do not need an entirely new suspension to get a great improvement in handling.
Last edited by slinger688; 06-22-2009 at 08:40 PM.
Reason: sp
I'd steer clear of the IE bar, and spend the extra cash on the H-Sport Comp bar (25.5mm hollow). I think there's like a $30 price difference. It's worth it... trust me.
As far as your struts and springs dilemma: I've had TSW's and they're pretty amazing (except the drop)... for springs. However, they really don't compare to the KW V1's that I'm on right now. I'm not sure why you think that you have to spend $1.5k on coils to get a good setup, but I got mine for around $1153, and they're phenomenal. That's only a little more (maybe less depending on what you want) than you'd pay for the springs and a set of decent bilstein's.
Edit: Also, you can dial in about maybe half a degree of negative camber by removing the white bushing on your front strut upper mounts and just sliding the the strut over a bit.
I'd steer clear of the IE bar, and spend the extra cash on the H-Sport Comp bar (25.5mm hollow). I think there's like a $30 price difference. It's worth it... trust me.
Well... yeah. The Comp bar is equivalent to a 22mm solid bar, while shaving 8lbs.
Edit:
It further reduces understeer (on the lowest setting), while allowing for the ability to adjust for oversteer. (And do you really need infinitesimal adjustments with the IE bar? I know that some vendors even mark three places on the bar for you that would be equivalent to the three settings on every other bar). Obviously, the beafier the bar, the less body roll you're going to get, which means tighter handling and more control. The tighter you can get the rear end of your car, the better off you are.
I've also heard some not so great things about the IE bar as far as quality, the ability to adjust, and the fact that the endlinks can just slide off (whoops). They're also all kinds of noisy and not as easy to lube as the H-Sport bars.
Well... yeah. The Comp bar is equivalent to a 22mm solid bar, while shaving 8lbs.
I was really hoping for an explanation along the lines of neutral handling, ability to induce oversteer, ability to TTO and rotate the car under control etc.
I would not be so quick to dismiss stuff if you have not tried it.
The main reason I looked at the IE bar was that it was 1. cheap, 2. included endlinks. I hear stock endlinks + aftermarket bar = disaster ... so if I could kill two birds with one stone that'd be great.
I will definitely look into the H-Sport one ... but endlinks being an additional $150 sways me from getting a rear sway bar in all.
It's good to hear that I can get that much camber stock. And I'll probably track my car the first year totally stock ... just for fun, and to get a feel of the original suspension before doing much modification. That way I can eat up the stock runflats and wrap the Star Specs on the wheels.
Keep the responses coming, I greatly appreciate them!
Please don't assume what I have and have not tried, slinger. Thanks.
Just be careful recommending stuff like the H-sport 25.5" competition bar that is only for track use. You do not need to go to the extreme to get neutral handling which is the op's original question.
Dude, the stock endlinks should be fine. I'm running stock links with my bar. Are aftermarket links stronger? Yeah, but that's pretty much it. Unless you plan on tracking the car hardcore style (i.e., to the point you need it corner weighted), you should be good.
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Last edited by MoxieMini; 06-23-2009 at 12:53 AM.
Reason: clarification.
Just be careful recommending stuff like the H-sport 25.5" competition bar that is only for track use. You do not need to go to the extreme to get neutral handling which is the op's original question.
BTW, have you tried the IE bar?
Are you asking if I've "owned" it or "tried" it? Tried... yes. Owned... no.
As for the bar... yes, it is intended for track use, but I wouldn't say track use "only." If you set it on it's lightest setting, it should be about the same as a 19mm solid bar on it's tightest setting. It's not like you're going to have any real oversteer to speak of. And I mean it depends on what you want, but if you're going to track the car, you may as well set it up to be tracked (which it sounds like the OP wants to track it). I mean H-sport makes a 19mm bar, but it's the same price as the comp bar. I'd imagine they're priced that way so that it just comes down to what you really want/need out of the bar.
The main reason I looked at the IE bar was that it was 1. cheap, 2. included endlinks. I hear stock endlinks + aftermarket bar = disaster ... so if I could kill two birds with one stone that'd be great.
I will definitely look into the H-Sport one ... but endlinks being an additional $150 sways me from getting a rear sway bar in all.
It's good to hear that I can get that much camber stock. And I'll probably track my car the first year totally stock ... just for fun, and to get a feel of the original suspension before doing much modification. That way I can eat up the stock runflats and wrap the Star Specs on the wheels.
Keep the responses coming, I greatly appreciate them!
I track my car all the time so I have been down this road. The max stock front camber is -0.5 as Minimoxie had mentioned which is good starting point. The Z1 are great tires but they do chunk if you understeer too much.
If you want to track the car, I would put on some better brake pads/fluid and go for it. I have a very mild suspension setup but it is very communicative, sort of talks to you about what the car is doing and allows you time to correct. Learn first before you go overboard with the go fast race parts. The understeering Mini is a safer platform to start off. I have driven Minis, Lotuses, Porsches and open wheel racers on the track. Those that have oversteer bias are more challenging cars to drive fast.
Well... yeah. The Comp bar is equivalent to a 22mm solid bar, while shaving 8lbs.
Edit:
It further reduces understeer (on the lowest setting), while allowing for the ability to adjust for oversteer. (And do you really need infinitesimal adjustments with the IE bar? I know that some vendors even mark three places on the bar for you that would be equivalent to the three settings on every other bar). Obviously, the beafier the bar, the less body roll you're going to get, which means tighter handling and more control. The tighter you can get the rear end of your car, the better off you are.
I've also heard some not so great things about the IE bar as far as quality, the ability to adjust, and the fact that the endlinks can just slide off (whoops). They're also all kinds of noisy and not as easy to lube as the H-Sport bars.
Thanks for the extended critcism of the IE bar. Some of it is quite funny. I think the are advantages/disadvantages of each type of bar.
I think the size of the bar is a personal thing because it is where you are comfortable with safe neutral handling. Increasing the size of the rear, ceterus paribus, increases oversteer. Too much oversteer makes the car difficult to handle. That is why, to be safe, almost all manufacturers give you an understeering car out of the box. The Mini happened to understeer too much in my opinion so some correction is good in my opinion. Just trying to make sure that the op is safe, especially on the track.
Are you asking if I've "owned" it or "tried" it? Tried... yes. Owned... no.
As for the bar... yes, it is intended for track use, but I wouldn't say track use "only." If you set it on it's lightest setting, it should be about the same as a 19mm solid bar on it's tightest setting. It's not like you're going to have any real oversteer to speak of. And I mean it depends on what you want, but if you're going to track the car, you may as well set it up to be tracked (which it sounds like the OP wants to track it). I mean H-sport makes a 19mm bar, but it's the same price as the comp bar. I'd imagine they're priced that way so that it just comes down to what you really want/need out of the bar.
I may be wrong but I got this from the tirerack website: Hotchkis Sport Suspension Sport Anti-Roll Bars 25MM
Rear Fitment
Note: # Not Intended for Street Use# ## Competition Use Only ## Bar diameter 25mm Rear only. Rear bar is hollow. Rear bar is adjustable. Rear +314%,+394%,+501% over OE Includes greasable bushings and mounting brackets.
Hotchkis Sport Suspension Sport Anti-Roll Bar 19MM
Rear Fitment
Note: Bar diameter 19mm Rear only. Rear bar is hollow. Rear bar is adjustable. Rear +54%,+88% & +128% over OE Includes greasable bushings and mounting brackets.
I think the two bars do not overlap at all in their settings. They are both great bars for different purposes. Just depends on where you find neutral handling. If you dial in too much oversteer with too big of a bar, there are ways to somewhat get rid of it.
Seriously, though. I'm really not saying it's a "bad" bar or anything and it doesn't get the job done (it does). I just think that there are some better options, given what the OP is looking for.
And I definitely agree that one should be careful of oversteer if they haven't had any experience with it.
Seriously, though. I'm really not saying it's a "bad" bar or anything and it doesn't get the job done (it does). I just think that there are some better options, given what the OP is looking for.
And I definitely agree that one should be careful of oversteer if they haven't had any experience with it.
I did not have a negative comment about what you have on your car. Just wanted to know why you made certain choices which is good for the op.
When you approach the limits of the car on the track, the little things (and small adjustments) do matter. At my setting, you can get oversteer (both TTO and TBO) quite easily with the IE bar. But in a FWD it can be corrected a little more easily than a RWD.
