Larger front sway bar + no rear sway bar = OK?

[vodka]

Hi All,

Since MINI ONE don't come with a rear sway bar (and very hard to install one), how abt changing the front sway bar (16mm) to larger size? What you think? Good or no good?

Thanks

[ZAMIRZ]

That would just make the car understeer worst than it already does.

[satay-ayam]

Some of the fastest autocross VW's use a huge front swaybar with NO rear swaybar. However, they also use really stiff rear springs.

Does the Cooper One not have the holes to mount rear sway bar brackets and endlinks? I think that for a street car on typical street spring rates, you'd prefer having a rear swaybar.

Don't believe all conventional wisdom, though. Suspension is really complicated. My old autocross Civic didn't have a rear swaybar, but was almost as tailhappy as a Mustang. In fact, I think a rear swaybar on that car would have caused LESS oversteer by keeping the rear suspension from running on the bumpstops in sweepers. Edit - never tried it, though, so who knows.

[vodka]

Thanks for the reply. Yup, ONE dont have the holes and endlinks to mount the rear sway bars.

How abt no sway bars at all?

Thanks

[meb]

...interesting...

[PortMCS]

Funny, ive got the opposite. I got a rear h-sport rear bar (which made a big difference in turn-in) but no front bar yet.

[gotundersteer?]

Originally Posted by PortMCS

Funny, ive got the opposite. I got a rear h-sport rear bar (which made a big difference in turn-in) but no front bar yet.

Primarily, your right.


For a FWD car, your best bet is to run a larger than stock rear-bar with a stock or smaller than stock, or no, front swaybar.

Keep in mind, every MM you go up multiplies the stiffness by itself.

[TerryD]

Originally Posted by vodka

Hi All,

Since MINI ONE don't come with a rear sway bar (and very hard to install one), how abt changing the front sway bar (16mm) to larger size? What you think? Good or no good?

Thanks

I went to the realoem.com bmw part list web site and looked at the suspension of the 06 mini one. It has a rear bar. What do you have?

[vodka]

My is 04 MINI ONE and don't have sport suspension so I have nothing expect a tiny front sway bar. I think ONE with sport suspension - SS+ - will have a rear sway bar.

[meb]

Part of the reason behind using a larger rear bar on a front driver is the keep the front tires planted upon exiting a turn when under full throttle. The same is true for a RWD car, but in reverse; a larger front bar is used to help keep the rear tires planted while exiting a turn under full throttle.

In both cases, either the inside rear wheel (FWD) or inside front wheel (RWD) will lift ever so slightly off the ground. This is an acceptable trade-off so long as the lift isn't huge...once the tire leaves the ground in either case, the swaybar in question contributes nothing more to roll resistance or weight transfer. So, lift will occur in some turns while not others.

And, we're fighting physics with a nose heavy front wheel driver, no matter how cute it is.

[nabeshin]

Has anyone tried vodka's idea of no swaybars? You could easily remove the endlinks and leave the rest just to see what would happen. I will try it this weekend.

[meb]

A great way to test a swaybar's effectivness, by the way.

[vodka]

Hi,

Have you tried? Any feedback? Pls share with me/us

Thanks

Originally Posted by nabeshin

Has anyone tried vodka's idea of no swaybars? You could easily remove the endlinks and leave the rest just to see what would happen. I will try it this weekend.

[nabeshin]

I tried removing all of the endlinks. The car rode nicer, but as expected rolled alot in the turns. It was now true independent suspension. It seemed to have neutral handling, but the steering responce was bad. The car rolled opposite your inputs then went. It was kind of fun since I am used to my 22mm bar on stiffest. Also, the front struts hit the bumpstops a few times in faster turns. Over all, if you dont drive hard at all and want a smooth ride, by all means remove the endlinks. Just remember to tie the swaybars with twine so that they do not slam into the control arms.

[minimarks]

Keep the stock front swaybar and springs for now and add firmer rear springs (MCS sport springs). Then see what ya got... Just my 2 cents.

[tomm9050]

Which model 19 Rear sway bar is the best? Are they all pretty much the same?


Thanks

[sonichris]

Originally Posted by nabeshin

Just remember to tie the swaybars with twine so that they do not slam into the control arms.

what i did is just remove one link on the front. that way the bar will follow the strut and not hit anything. been like that on mine for months. i tried the rear, but it understeered badly. now i have rear stock bar and no front bar (actually just disconnected front bar).

[nabeshin]

Why is it the simple solutions always elude me?

[seebobgo]

Your kidding here....right

[Some Guy]

Originally Posted by minimarks

Keep the stock front swaybar and springs for now and add firmer rear springs (MCS sport springs). Then see what ya got... Just my 2 cents.

That's a pretty good solution.

[haygood]

Originally Posted by satay-ayam

Some of the fastest autocross VW's use a huge front swaybar with NO rear swaybar. However, they also use really stiff rear springs.

Does the Cooper One not have the holes to mount rear sway bar brackets and endlinks? I think that for a street car on typical street spring rates, you'd prefer having a rear swaybar.

Don't believe all conventional wisdom, though. Suspension is really complicated. My old autocross Civic didn't have a rear swaybar, but was almost as tailhappy as a Mustang. In fact, I think a rear swaybar on that car would have caused LESS oversteer by keeping the rear suspension from running on the bumpstops in sweepers. Edit - never tried it, though, so who knows.

The infamous VW setup you are talking about is the Shine Racing setup. It uses NO FRONT bar with a decent rear bar. The trick is they use incredibly stiff springs for such a light car. This is the same setup sonichris has been using and it makes sense if your springs are stiff enough.

This was a big topic of debate in the VW arena. Half the people said it was crazy and the other said to try it. The one's who thought it were crazy were using springs that were way too soft.

To the OP, if adding a rear bar is too difficult, try some of the stiffer spring/shock options. I would not suggest trying the original idea of getting a stiffer front bar without a rear bar. Your car will, like others have said, likely understeer like mad and not stay all that much more level in a turn.

Cheers.

Brian

[sonichris]

one thing that we are all running around but not stating is it matters less whether or not you have a front or rear bar, but rather what is the total roll stiffness on the front or rear.

you can increase roll stiffness by either adding a bar, increasing the diameter of an existing bar, OR increasing the stiffness of the springs. the springs and the bar work together to increase roll stiffness.

so, in the case of the OP, you must ask yourself how do you want to change the behavior of your car. do you want more or less oversteer/understeer? if you want less understeer on a stock vehicle, which most of us fwds do, increase rear roll stiffness. or, if your car is too stiff, which was the case with me when i installed the rss club sports, DEcrease the front roll stiffness, which i did by disconnecting the front bar.

to decide between springs or bar, just remember that changing springs will affect the ride all the time, while changing the bar will only affect the ride when one wheel goes over a bump, and not affect the ride when both wheels simultaneously traverse a bump.

[meb]

Another avenue...change over to adjustable shocks and alter the rate of roll between front and rear axles. Although this is not the same as changing springs and swaybars, the effect may serve the OP by adding a little more control/balance. Obviously new shocks have to work with existing spring rates...

[maacodale]

When I was racing Legends cars, the easiest way to remember things is this: "Stiff end slides first" So like Chris said, stiffness controls sliding, which is relative. If you can't do it with bars, which some people look at as a band aid fix, do it with springs. Faster yet, it was mentioned adjustable shocks are an option. And would probably be an upgrade at the same time. I like the bar change because it doesn't add harshness to the ride as much as stiff springs would.

[meb]

...or the end with the most mass...if we're not in a 50/50 car.