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Fuel pump replacement isn't covered under warranty because of "bad gas"?
I have a 2007 MCS that is still just barely under the 50,000 mile warranty and it suddenly started having the problem where it can't start when the engine is cold a couple of months ago. I took it to the service dept. at the dealership and they told me it was bad gas. Told me to put premium in it from Shell/Chevron and change the spark plugs. Did that, the spark plugs looked fine but changed them anyway with no improvement. I did some looking around on these forums and saw others who had that problem and said it was the fuel pump. So I took it back to the dealer and suggested they check that. Indeed, that is the problem. BUT... they are insisting that "bad gas" caused the pump to be faulty. They tested the gas that's in the tank now and it has 15% ethanol, which is "beyond the tolerance of the vehicle". Because of this, they said the replacement of the fuel pump cannot be covered by the warranty. They are basing this off of the gas that is in there now even though the car has had this problem for at least 2 months and I have used different brands of gas. They said my other option is to contact the fuel company that I last filled up at (Shell) and Shell might reimburse me for the cost of replacing the fuel pump. This all seems like total bull hockey to me.
I am going to get them to show me where in the warranty it specifies ethanol content or gas quality and show me what kind of damage an extra 5% of ethanol can do to a fuel pump. Other than that I don't know what to do.
Has anyone else run into this kind of problem? Can they really do this? Should I try taking it to another Mini dealer and see if they'll do it right? I really need some help/suggestions here, I will be talking to them again on Monday.
The dealership in question is Moritz in Arlington, TX. The other dealership I could take it to is Mini of Dallas.
That is total, complete, BS on Moritz's part. After all, warranty denial has to revolve around whether something you consciously did, like adding a 3rd party mod, caused the failure.
How would you know if the gas was "bad"? there's no way of telling! After reading this, Im going to start saving my gas reciepts from Shell (altho my dealer is more honest and customer service oriented.)
Take it to Mini of Dallas, and explain the situation. If they try to stonewall you into guilt and play Jedi mind-games also, then do an end around and complain loudly and professionally to MINI USA. That's why they are there: to keep these dammed nazi dealers honest and honor the warranty U paid for.
__________________ I say, boy, you dont seem to be apprehendin' the general gist of what I'm tryin' to convey here. Maybe you oughta take a second, let your head catch up to your tongue before it gets all sunburnt. That was a joke, son, I say - a joke! Nice boy, but he's about as sharp as a sack o' wet mice.
On 32 years I've only had to replace two fuel pimps due to bad gas, water both times, and in a Chevy both times. Neither one was covered under warranty because the part was not defective it was misused/abused, it's a fuel pump after all, not a water pump. I did know where I bought the bad gas (once, I didn't even get out of the lot before the car died) so I called and told them what happened and convinced them to pay for the repair both times. I had to pay the bill myself and took them a copy for "reimbursement". Alcohol may be a different story though, not as obvious a problem as water. Good Luck.
__________________
Dean
09 Mini Cooper
93 VR RX7
91 CRX (Sold, thinning the heard)
75 Cosworth Vega
I am going to get them to show me where in the warranty it specifies ethanol content or gas quality and show me what kind of damage an extra 5% of ethanol can do to a fuel pump. Other than that I don't know what to do.
In the owner's manual, it says that gasoline containing "up to and including 10% ethanol" will not void the applicable warranties. Although it doesn't specifically say so, you could reasonably draw the conclusion that ethanol concentrations higher than 10% will void the warranty on affected parts.
Did they have a sample of your gasoline analyzed someplace to determine it's alcohol content? If so, ask to see the lab results..........
I think they're BSing you too, but bear in mind the only reason they might not want to do a repair under warranty is if they won't get paid by MINI. The problem may not be the dealer, but that MINI isn't paying for pump replacements.
All that aside, I can't believe an extra 5% of alcohol would kill the fuel pump.........85% I might see, but if it's already made to run up to 15%, which is a normal summer additive in the US, and few drops extra is not going to kill it. Something else is going on here.
What does it cost to have the pump replaced?
__________________
'09 LB/LB Clubman S
'69 Jaguar XK-E
'04 Audi Allroad Twin-Turbo
MMC#580
Did they have a sample of your gasoline analyzed someplace to determine it's alcohol content? If so, ask to see the lab results..........
All that aside, I can't believe an extra 5% of alcohol would kill the fuel pump.........85% I might see, but if it's already made to run up to 15%, which is a normal summer additive in the US, and few drops extra is not going to kill it. Something else is going on here.
Checking ethanol content doesn't require lab analysis. It's a five-minute test that only requires some water, a beaker and a sample of gasoline from the car's tank.
Also, 15% ethanol isn't a standard gasoline blend, even in the summer. In fact, increasing the ethanol content in the summer would defeat the purpose of having "summer blend" gas in the first place.
During the summer, refineries are required to reduce the amount of volatile compounds in their gasoline, because these volatile compounds "boil off" during hot summer weather and contribute to smog and other pollution. Adding ethanol increases the volatility of the gas rather than decreasing it, so it would be counter-productive to use 15% ethanol during the summer.
I'm not certain that the excess ethanol is what caused the OP's fuel pump to fail, but 15% ethanol *is* 50% higher than the allowable limit stated in the owner's manual. As such, it's probably going to be an uphill battle getting the pump replaced under warranty.
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Last edited by ScottRiqui; 04-25-2009 at 06:54 PM.
Question, do the gas stations need to have it posted somewhere what the ethanol content of their gas is? Is there a law or something like that? How would we know?
__________________
Mama Mia!
Mia is an 07 Cooper-S, Meller-Yeller, MY Color Line Interior, H&R Springs
Prem/Sport/Cold/Convenience, White Turn Signals, Rear Fog Light Mod
During the gas shortage last year I unknowingly pumped 2 gallons of water into my tank from the local station and ended up pulling my tank and cleaning out the fuel system but the fuel pump never failed and 30k later there's no problems.
Question, do the gas stations need to have it posted somewhere what the ethanol content of their gas is? Is there a law or something like that? How would we know?
This page lists the labeling requirements by state. Some states don't require labels indicating the presence of ethanol, while others require labels only if there's more than a particular percentage of ethanol. Right now, the legal maximum limit for ethanol is 10%, although there's currently a proposal to increase the limit to 15%. (Which would raise interesting questions regarding warranty issues like the one that's the subject of this thread).
This page lists the labeling requirements by state. Some states don't require labels indicating the presence of ethanol, while others require labels only if there's more than a particular percentage of ethanol. Right now, the legal maximum limit for ethanol is 10%, although there's currently a proposal to increase the limit to 15%. (Which would raise interesting questions regarding warranty issues like the one that's the subject of this thread).
Thanks for the link.
Looks like the OP really has an open and shut case to have the station pay for all the damages and repairs seeing that it IS illegal to have more than 10% ethanol in the gas. I guess the hard part would be to prove it.
__________________
Mama Mia!
Mia is an 07 Cooper-S, Meller-Yeller, MY Color Line Interior, H&R Springs
Prem/Sport/Cold/Convenience, White Turn Signals, Rear Fog Light Mod
The Mini as well as every car sold in the world with a warrenty is covered when a part fails. If it was me I would be on the phone at least 10 times a day to BMW and asking why my car is the only one out there that the Shell gas I put in it ruined the fuel pump. I'm almost positive that christifrog is not the only person that bought gas at that station. I'm sure other people with all sorts of cars purchased gas at that station. If more then a couple dozen cars had problems, it would be a gas problem. "Just one MINI." I don't think it is a gas problem.
If no satisfaction just call the states attorney and file a written complaint. The big problem I see in America is WE JUST DO NOT FOLLOW THROUGH when we are being screwed.
Ronnie948
__________________ 2009 JCW
RONNIE948
Daytona Beach, Florida
Signs that you may have run your engine on contaminated e10 fuel:
Stalling, hesitation, inability to start engine; Vapor lock or fuel starvation; Corrosion and rusting of engine parts; Clogging of fuel and water separator filters; Piston/bore failure through knock/pre-ignition; Damaged fuel pump; Reduced octane symptoms;
__________________
Dean
09 Mini Cooper
93 VR RX7
91 CRX (Sold, thinning the heard)
75 Cosworth Vega
That is a bunch BS, it should be replaced under warranty...
Yes, esp if one is using any of the top-tier fuels recc by BMW: Shell included.
__________________ I say, boy, you dont seem to be apprehendin' the general gist of what I'm tryin' to convey here. Maybe you oughta take a second, let your head catch up to your tongue before it gets all sunburnt. That was a joke, son, I say - a joke! Nice boy, but he's about as sharp as a sack o' wet mice.
It may not be legal to sell a car that can't run on the fuel sold in this country. I'd contact Mini and if that doesn't work an attorney who specializes in lemon laws may smell a class action suit.
It may not be legal to sell a car that can't run on the fuel sold in this country. I'd contact Mini and if that doesn't work an attorney who specializes in lemon laws may smell a class action suit.
The lawsuit would need to be against the gas station, not MINI. 15% ethanol (which is what was found in the OP's tank) isn't a legal blend anywhere in the U.S.
There *is* a current proposal to raise the limit to 15%, and it'll be interesting to see what MINI does if a 15% blend becomes legal and widely-used.
I understand that Mini says that you can't use gas beyond 15% ethanol. They claim that the tank had gas beyond that. Understand, they have a bad fuel pump, and go looking for an excuse not to fix it... probably on standing directions from Mini. So the question is 1) do you trust them, 2) do they as a company know that ethanol concentrations may exceed 10% at many stations, 3) can they support the claim that ethanol 5% more kills fuel pumps, 4) this may not be legal what they have in the warranty book (They may have agreed to make the cars work on existing fuel in this country), and 5) was the ethanol warning explicitly communicated and not hidden in a warranty book. Think about this. You run low on fuel out in the burbs. What gas are you to buy?
I understand that Mini says that you can't use gas beyond 15% ethanol. They claim that the tank had gas beyond that. Understand, they have a bad fuel pump, and go looking for an excuse not to fix it... probably on standing directions from Mini. So the question is 1) do you trust them, 2) do they as a company know that ethanol concentrations may exceed 10% at many stations, 3) can they support the claim that ethanol 5% more kills fuel pumps, 4) this may not be legal what they have in the warranty book (They may have agreed to make the cars work on existing fuel in this country), and 5) was the ethanol warning explicitly communicated and not hidden in a warranty book. Think about this. You run low on fuel out in the burbs. What gas are you to buy?
Ken
MINI's warning is against using gas with greater than 10% ethanol, not 15%, and it's in the owner's manual, so it's not hidden away.
If stations are selling gas with greater than 10% ethanol, they're not doing it legally, so I don't know why MINI would be obligated to account for it in their design. Some stations have been found illegally selling gas with *much* higher ethanol concentrations - 20% or more. Should MINI have to account for that in their design? Even if you're out in the middle of nowhere, you should still be able to find suitable gas, as long as the station owners aren't breaking the law.
And 15% ethanol might not sound like it's very far over the limit, but it represents an ethanol concentration that's 50% higher than the legal limit (and MINI's design criteria). That's a pretty wide safety margin to expect MINI to implement. And who's to say whether or not 15% is the worst gas that the OP has bought? That was just what was in the most-recent tank.
It's going to be much harder to pursue, but I think the liability for repairing the fuel pump belongs to the station owners that sold the OP the bad gas, not with MINI.
The car is either under a warrenty or it is not. If it is under a warrenty and the part fails it should be repaired or replaced."PERIOD"
It's not like the warrenty coverage is not included in the cost of a car or any other product for that matter.
If that gas was bad, other cars also would be having problems. Even if the gas was 15% I do not think running one part of a tank would destroy a fuel pump. He didn't even run a full tank.
Mini is responsible for replacing that fuel pump. "NO EXCUSES" It failed and the car is under warrenty.
Ronnie948
__________________ 2009 JCW
RONNIE948
Daytona Beach, Florida
Settle down and think about it. Should MINI have to pay a warranty claim if you got a bad batch of oil from the parts guy and it caused engine failure? How about if a tire was defective and caused an accident?
If the part failed because of normal use or defect then yes a warranty claim is valid. If the failure was caused by something outside of MINI's control/req's......sorry.
Looks like they've had a change of heart, they called me back and said that the pump will be covered by the manufacturer. But they are insisting that I flush the 15% ethanol gas before the pump is replaced, and that's going to cost $240. I went ahead and told them to do it, but I'm wondering if I could still be reimbursed by the fuel company for that. I'm sure Shell would be much more willing to pay that than the $1200 for the fuel pump.
Wow, so as I was about to hit the "post reply" I got a call... apparently Ed Wallace, a guy on the radio here is going to have an article in Business Week with stories including mine about how the ethanol is causing all sorts of problems in cars. He talked to the dealership where my car's at, maybe that helped them change their mind.
If ethanol concentrations are routinely higher than is allowable by law (and I've yet to see the research to back up this claim) then we should see a slew of failures of fuel pumps from all manufacturers. If mini is unique in this alleged sensitivity of their fuel pumps, knowing full well that fuel quality varies in the States, then they can have liability as I described above... especially if their disclaimer is not indicated on the fuel fill door as is required for high octane required fuel. Even when cars require high octane fuel they can't be manufactured to suffer catastrophic failure if someone gets lower octane gas by no fault of their own.
Logic would indicate that there should be a lot more fuel pump failures according to the posts above, if a) fuel quality ethanol concentrations were so high and b) if this caused fuel pump failures. If a company like Mini sells cars that fail in large numbers in the U.S. compared to domestic fuel pumps, and even other foreign fuel pumps, we'll see how long they continue to be allowed to sell cars here.
After reading this, Im going to start saving my gas reciepts from Shell (altho my dealer is more honest and customer service oriented.) 
I say, boy, you dont seem to be apprehendin' the general gist of what I'm tryin' to convey here. Maybe you oughta take a second, let your head catch up to your tongue before it gets all sunburnt. That was a joke, son, I say - a joke! Nice boy, but he's about as sharp as a sack o' wet mice.
"It's the little details that are vital. Little things make big things happen." John Wooden
2009 JCW
Mini Me - 2008 Laser Blue/Black MCS - 6 sp Auto, Multi-Function Steering Wheel, Piano Blk/Anthracite, Black JCW R105 Double-Spoke 18-inch Wheels on Pirelli PZero RF
