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Ah jeez, this problem hit my car big time just this week, 2200 miles. Checked here found a few posting on same cold-start death rattle, went over to Mini2, found this>>
252 messages in one hair-raising 13-page thread, multiple sound clips included. I didn't even bother searching for others. Gonna call the dealer this week. Very dissappointing.
I'm bummed.
__________________
'07 MINI Cooper S, Mellow Yellow
'01 BMW 530i
'02 BMW 540iT Sport-the heavy metal
Ah jeez, this problem hit my car big time just this week, 2200 miles. Checked here found a few posting on same cold-start death rattle, went over to Mini2, found this>>
252 messages in one hair-raising 13-page thread, multiple sound clips included. I didn't even bother searching for others. Gonna call the dealer this week. Very dissappointing.
I'm bummed.
My MCS can sound similar to the videos in that thread, but only on very cold days when it hasn't been driven in a while, and only as the engine approaches 2000rpm; it sounds perfectly normal at idle. Once the engine wars up (two or three minutes), the sound is gone. Since my previous car, a 2002 Toyota Corolla, made a somewhat similar sound under similar conditions since it was new, I figure in my case it might just be the sound of a cold engine. On the other hand, others in that thread seem to be having that sound on cold days even at idle (as if the engine is starved of oil), and at least one person is having a similar noise even when both the engine and the weather are warm.
Nah, not piston slap, Subaru's are famous for that, that's more rhythmic and cyclical sounding than what the Mini folks are reporting, this is a off-time diesel type clattering, very violent, like in those videos. Yes, after warmup it subsides, but the duration is getting longer, and I'm kinda scared of driving off, sounds like it might slip a cog. I've owned 30+ cars since 1977, from new to very old, and an experienced DIYer , this is a bad sound, not normal.
__________________
'07 MINI Cooper S, Mellow Yellow
'01 BMW 530i
'02 BMW 540iT Sport-the heavy metal
early on there was someone conjecturing piston slap and tried to make a big uproar. This is not piston slap. If I remember right it had something to do with a chain tensioner.
__________________ Laser Blue/White MCS delivered 3/8/07. Off lease 5/17/09.
Tigger - 2009 JCW delivered 4/27/09, FMIC, boost gauge, Striped and tinted
Alta AccessPORT tune - 267wtq & 219whp
MINI #3 - 2011 White Silver/Black MCS. Delivered 5/11/11. All glass tinted;bobcat pads;OZ Ultra Leggeras;205/50/16 Starspecs
For those interested, here's a brief update. Car is going to dealer this afternoon for a week to let them figure it out.
I let the car sit for the past 8 days, unstarted. This morning I cranked it up, I hear the following:
1. A quick bbbrrrpppp noise for about a second, then stops. This is without a doubt a slack timing chain, my old 167k mile Mercedes makes exactly the same noise after its been sitting for awhile. I would classify this as nearly normal, no oil in tensioner at all, then it quickly pressurizes. This is to be expected after such long time undriven.
2. The god-awful dieseling sound, just like in those posted videos on Mini2. Lasts for about 30 seconds; while I'm standing there listening to it, it abruptly stops, the car is just idling as normal, with some rising and dropping of idle speed. soft deep tapping noise evident.
3. Sitting in car, I gently raise the revs and release, loud raspy rattling resonates at about 1500-2000rpm, then drops off. Loose heat shield? Chain still slack and slapping around? Faulty lifters?
Anyway, its impossible this could be classified as normal behavior. My Dad's '06 2.4 liter 4cyl Camry is stone quiet at startup, cold or warm.
__________________
'07 MINI Cooper S, Mellow Yellow
'01 BMW 530i
'02 BMW 540iT Sport-the heavy metal
and PS: note this posting from 'DeanLiv' from the UK on mini2.com (the underline is from me):
Chain tensioner doesn't do much. Dealer is Williams in Manchester, Ive found them very good and extremely helpful in deed. I suppose you have to let the dealers go through the motions, new tensioner, new cam lifters then like i did, keep taking it back, take recording on your phone, play them to your dealer, stress a modern engine should not be sounding like this ask them to go back to BMW for further assistance. Everything has to be carried out to BMW instructions for the dealers to put the warranty claim in i think. BMW tech rep said they have seen the problem before and it originates from the cyinder head, valves and variable timing. I had two options either to rebuild the cylinder head to incorporate the modifications of the new engines which include new valves, timing chain, cams lifters or other option replace the engine with the modified cylinder head. Apparently its the early MCS that are giving the problems.
Needless to say, very interested in what dealer has to say. Car sitting there now.
__________________
'07 MINI Cooper S, Mellow Yellow
'01 BMW 530i
'02 BMW 540iT Sport-the heavy metal
__________________ Founding member of R56 Anonymous. Now repeat after me: "Hello. My name is ____. I'm a driving enthusiast... and I still like the R56!"
early on there was someone conjecturing piston slap and tried to make a big uproar. This is not piston slap. If I remember right it had something to do with a chain tensioner.
I can't think of a more appropriate screen name
I was the one speculating on piston slap when the videos first appeared. I did not try to make "a big uproar", and you were the one making mountains out of molehills.
The fact of the matter is that manufacturing processes lead to more cases of piston slap in today's cars. Increased use of aluminum (which has a different rate of thermal expansion than the iron sleeve of the cylinder) , shorter piston skirts (for lower mass), not matching pistons to bores (to save labor since tolerances are better across the board), etc... are a few of the reasons it happens. GM and Subaru are two companies with great incidents of piston slap, and Toyota has its fair share (although less reported). Mr. Kerr (a master mechanic) lays out the issue in fine detail in the article cited above, and notes its increase in modern cars.
Neither you nor I know whether any particular instance is or is not piston slap. Your categorical rejection is no more than a denial of a very real possibility, regardless of the probability (which I think is slight). The culprit in most cases seems to be the cup gear at the end of the camshaft.
I know that is true for recall notices, but TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins) are internal documents issued by MINI for recurring issues with a known/proven fix. I honestly believe that the TSBs are a way for BMW/MINI to be somewhat proactive and avoid having to issue many actual recalls - and thereby also avoiding the associated bad press.
OTOH, it certainly doesn't hurt to fill out the form with the NHTSA for some additional "pressure" to keep then on their toes and it is good to keep educating folks that the reporting form exists/needs to be used.
I was the one speculating on piston slap when the videos first appeared. .
you back again? I fully remembered who it was but was nice enough to leave your name out of it. At least you had finally admitted it probably wasn't piston slap.
Quote:
Your categorical rejection is no more than a denial of a very real possibility, regardless of the probability
Please let this thread continue to search for the real answer instead of being derailed with wild speculation.
__________________ Laser Blue/White MCS delivered 3/8/07. Off lease 5/17/09.
Tigger - 2009 JCW delivered 4/27/09, FMIC, boost gauge, Striped and tinted
Alta AccessPORT tune - 267wtq & 219whp
MINI #3 - 2011 White Silver/Black MCS. Delivered 5/11/11. All glass tinted;bobcat pads;OZ Ultra Leggeras;205/50/16 Starspecs
Last edited by MotorMouth; 12-13-2007 at 09:47 AM.
Wild speculation?... Whatever. My background is 25 years of automotive maintenance, particularly military applications. Yours?
I think you will find I never "admitted" anything one way or another, but looked for other's experience with their cars. You on the other hand obviously have little to add other than "it's not proven".
I'm sorry that you're so insecure in your Mini purchase that you cannot accept discussion that might not be rainbows and sunshine. Welcome to my ignore list.
In the clip posted above it sounds like valves to me, from the frequency or speed of the tapping, it's much faster than a rod knock or piston slap would be. Do those cars have hydraulic valve lifters? Back in the day, Audi had a lot of problems with this on the 5000 when it first got hydraulic valve lifters. They'd come off the truck sounding like this, and after they'd run a while, all was quiet. There was no known cure at the time, other than to be sure you drove your car everyday!
The poster who mentioned updating the cyl head is on the right track - I'd say...........
__________________
'09 LB/LB Clubman S
'69 Jaguar XK-E
'04 Audi Allroad Twin-Turbo
MMC#580
I know that is true for recall notices, but TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins) are internal documents issued by MINI for recurring issues with a known/proven fix. I honestly believe that the TSBs are a way for BMW/MINI to be somewhat proactive and avoid having to issue many actual recalls - and thereby also avoiding the associated bad press.
OTOH, it certainly doesn't hurt to fill out the form with the NHTSA for some additional "pressure" to keep then on their toes and it is good to keep educating folks that the reporting form exists/needs to be used.
Not disagreeing 100% (more like 10%, really), but...
...from my experience and observations, Technical Service Bullitins are the step manufacturers take after recieving overwhelming pressure from an outside source.
More often than not, that sourse is usually repeated NHTSA inquries into issues that are undeniable, but not necessarily safety issues that would REQUIRE a full-on recall. Other sourses have been large circulation media outlets reporting a problem. As large as NAM is... I HIGHLEY doubt that discussing the issue on the web, speculating as to the cause of this rattle, or approaching our dealers one-at-a-time is going to suffice.
TSB's are rarely initiated by the manufacturer as a voulentairy/proactive measure.
So again, I would highly... HIGHLY recommend people experiencing this problem, or other suspected oil starvation/rattle/piston slap(?) issues fill out the form :
__________________ Founding member of R56 Anonymous. Now repeat after me: "Hello. My name is ____. I'm a driving enthusiast... and I still like the R56!"
Sure sounds like bad hydraulic lifters (tappets) to me. I'm not clear on how the variable cam timing mechanism works, but that could be similarly at issue. Make certain you are using the correct weight oil for the ambient air temps.
Laser Blue/White MCS delivered 3/8/07. Off lease 5/17/09.
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