Cold start issues database

[Event-Horizon]

This thread is for a database of MINI's with cold start issues only. Please, no discussion if posssible.

Refer to this thread for the discussion of cold start issues: http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...d.php?t=121761

Information with videos from MotoringFile.com: http://www.motoringfile.com/2008/02/...issue-exposed/

UPDATE:(2-29-2008) please add a video or audio recording of your start-up if possible when reporting.

Also, the cold start issues have nothing to do with stalling or fuel pumps. This is strictly related to the upper valve train on the MINI engine. Please be sure to listen to the videos in the links provided above.

The format for your post should be:

Model:
Build Date:
Miles:
Duration:
Frequency: (times per month/week)
RPM range:
Ambient Temp:
Oil:

Any other relevant information:

If anyone feels that there should be any other info, please let me know so I can update this post.

My Info:

Cooper S, 6-Speed Manual
Build Date: October 2007
Miles: 3500+
Duration: 30 seconds to 1 minute
Frequency: has only happend two times.
RPM range: 1500-2000rpm
Ambient Temp: low 30's first time, 18 degrees second time.
Oil: Factory Fill, Castrol 5w-30, oil level full

Any other relevant information:
Car parked with the nose of the car in a downward slope both times. The sound can best be described as a growling, clattering, or rhythmic tapping. This cannot be piston slap at this speed because the frequency is too low. At 2000rpm, piston slap would would happen over 33 times a second. This is valve train related for sure due to the half-speed frequency of the sound. This means that at an engine speed of 2000rpm, the cams are spinning at 1000rpm or roughly 16 times a second.

Changed oil at +4500 miles to Castrol 0w-30 oil (A3/B3 BMW LL-01 specs) Engine runs much quiter in the mornings. There has been no hint of cold start rattle since oil change.

[uzun]

Here is my info:

2007 Cooper S, 6-Speed Manual
Build Date: October 2007
Miles: 4700+
Duration: About 1 minute
Frequency: has only happened once.
RPM range: idle
Ambient Temp: 70F
Oil: MINI-Branded 5w-30, factory-fill oil was changed at around 2000 miles

Any other relevant information:
The car was parked in the garage at around 10 pm on a Saturday night. The noise was heard when the engine was started at around 5 pm Sunday afternoon. Earlier on Sunday, around noon, the engine was briefly started two times to move the car. The engine did not run more than a minute or two both times. I did not notice an unusual noise during those short runs.

[Bishamon]

Cooper S, 6-Speed Manual
Build Date: February 2007
Miles: 3500+ kilometers
Duration: 30 seconds to 5 minutes
Frequency: 10+ times, but only once as severely as in the videos. When it happens, usually it's only apparent at 1800-2000rpm
RPM range: 1500-2000rpm+
Ambient Temp: anywhere from +3.5 to -10.0 Celsius
Oil: Factory, oil level full

Any other relevant information:
The car is always parked on a level surface, and there are no other apparent common factors. It can happen after sitting for only a few hours after a 20+ minute drive, and it may not happen after sitting for several days. The only common thread seems to be the cold temperatures.

[Birdman]

Model: R56 (CooperS)
Build Date: Week 24 (July 07)
Miles: ~7k
Duration: 1 to 3 minutes
Frequency: 2 or 3 per week this winter (seems temperature dependant, i.e. cold!)
RPM range: 0 to 2500 rpm
Ambient Temp: anything below 30 F, although sometimes up to 45f
Oil: factory (and I had it changed at ~5k)

Any other relevant information:
Sometimes it is VERY loud, sounds like something is grinding in the motor (like a drive chain rubbing on a chain cover). Other times, it is only slight and sounds more like a Diesel motor. First time this occured, it was about 12 degrees F outside, very cold. But since, it has occured at warmer temps up to 45f. Although you only hear it at lower RPM's (idle to about 2,500), I think it's always there when it's happening, but you just can't hear it due to it's speed and normal engine noise drowning it out.

[minicobra1]

Cooper S, 6-Speed Manual, JCW Stage 1
Build Date: October 2007
Miles: 5000
Duration: 30 seconds to 1 minute, and a split sec almost every time.
Frequency: 2-3+ times
RPM range: 800-3500rpm+
Ambient Temp: 45F and 50F
Oil: Factory, oil level full

Braden

[korby]

Model:R56S manual
Build Date: 01-07
Miles: 7000
Duration: 2 minutes
Frequency: (times per month/week) happened once ,slightly louder than normal a few time since . (gets my attention )
RPM range:0-....
Ambient Temp:40 F
Oil:Factory

Any other relevant information: The one time I was parked on a steep grade , I moved it twice the day before about 5 yards to allow kids to play .In the morning nose down I started it and got the sounds for 2 minutes .I was 300 miles from a Mini dealer .

[Arnbut]

Dang-it!!!

It happened to me for the first time this morning. The recordings don't do it justice.

6/07 build 2007 R56Sa with 19,600 miles.
The noise lasted for about 10 seconds and I turned off the engine in horror. I pulled out the keyfob, counted 5 Mississippis, and restarted. I was rewarded with the normal ticking.
I've had 2 oil changes already at the 8K and 15K mile-marker; I used stock oil and filters. Done by Harrison Mortorsports.
It was 22 degrees outside but 47 degrees in my garage.

[johned206]

Model:R56S manual
Build Date: 02-07
Miles: 20,000
Duration: 1-2 minutes
Frequency: six times over 20,000 miles
RPM range: idle-1500
Ambient Temp:-10 to 60
Oil:Factory

Additional information: The first instance was at 5000 miles on a 60 degree morning. I installed an oil pan heater for this winter and have had two occurances since then. Parked on a flat surface and drive it every day. Happens nearly every time I run it for a couple of minutes and shut it off and start it up an hour or more later.

[r56mini]

Model: r56S 6spd.
Build date: June 10, 2007.
Miles: 8900 miles.
Duration: 1 minute.
Frequency: Happened only once.
RPM range: Idle at start. Worse when revved above 2K rpm.
Ambient temp: 55-60°F. (Alt +176 = degree symbol).
Oil: Castrol syntec 5W30

Additional Info: Car is always parked in the garage on level surface. The car had been moved about 10 yards the day before and it sat all day until the following morning when it happened.

[Rennsemmel]

Model: R56S 6spd.
Build date: November, 2007.
Miles: 1700 miles.
Duration: few seconds
Frequency: Happened only once.
RPM range: Idle at start, RPMs dropped below 1000
Ambient temp: 15°F
Oil: OE

The car was parked in a carport overnight. When I started it in the morning the engine ran rough, the RPMs dropped below 1000 and the CEL came on. I shut the engine off and restarted it and it ran o.k. but CEL stayed on. So I dropped the car off at the dealership. Service advisor's explanation: moisture got into the throttle body mechanism and froze due to the very low outside temperatures and restricted the movement of the TB mechanism. Mini knows about the issue and is working on a solution.

[mataku]

Model: R56S 6 speed
Build date: August, 2007.
Miles: 5000 miles.
Duration: few minutes
Frequency: Happened twice
RPM range: Idle at start, drove slowly to warm it up
Ambient temp: Both times cold, below 20
Oil: Oem

Had the noise twice, changed oil to 0w-40 and have not had rattle since even with negative temperatures.

[tonyeck]

Model: 08 Mini Cooper S - Manual
Build Date: 23rd January 2008
Miles: 420
Duration: 2-3 Mins
Frequency: (times per month/week) 3 times this week
RPM range: idle - 2000+ (don't want to rev higher)
Ambient Temp: +25 to +33f
Oil: OEM

Any other relevant information: Parked on a small hill - only a 3 mile commute every morning... Only happened for the first time this week (25/02/08). Not happy

[msh441]

[quote=korby;2065853]Model:R56S manual
Build Date: 01-07
Miles: started at 6000
Duration: 2-3 minutes immediately upon start-up
Frequency: Started out once every 2-3 weeks. After a couple months it was once or twice a week. Around 10000 miles it was at leats once a day.
RPM range: idel-2000
Ambient Temp: Didn't seem to matter... 20-40 F. It got worse over summer/and went into the shop in the fall.
Oil: Factory recomended. Checked at every fuel-up. Never low. Changed at around 1000 miles. Then again at 7000 (when the chain tensioner was replaced). Plus during another service adressing this issue. Oil was drained and the system purged each time to try and eliminate the possibility of air in the oil circut. Didn't work. Oil pressure measured when rattling away. Shown to be witing spec.

Any other relevant information: Angle had no effect on mine. It was always on a level drive at home and work. Replaced 2 cam chain tensioners, one cam chain, VANOS solonoid, valves and guides. Totally rebuilt the head. Again, ne effect. New engine installed at 11000 miles. Haven't been through the break in yet... but al is well 500 miles into the new block/head.

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs

There are about 2000 unique visitors to NAM a day, let's double that cause not everyone posts every day, so 4000 active users. Of that, lets say 10% of visitors have the R56. That would mean about 400 R56 owners post. If you have 10 on the list, that's 2.5%. That's freakin huge!

So that's #13.

I know a #14 (in my MINI club - has no interest in NAM and wouldn't post here if she did)... and #15 (who's here, but would like to remain annonymous)...

So taking Matt's analysis (which I think to be fairly accurate)... thats getting up to 3.75%.

If MINI sold 16212 R56S's in 2007 (http://www.gbmini.net/wp/mini_sales/) and 3.75% are effected... thats 607 cars that are likley to be experiencing this issue right now. And that's assuming it's only effecting S's... which only time will tell.

[papafoxtrot]

Model: 2007 MCS- Manual
Build Date: June 2007
Miles: 3200
Duration: 1-2 minutes
Frequency: 3 times: Very noticeable latest incident.
Temp: 42 F
Oil: OEM


I have 3200 miles on my R56 and on Sunday when I first started the engine (outside temp 42 degrees F) the engine was running quite loud like a mild diesal engine sound when I accelerated. I turned off the engine, restarted it and it went away. I did hear what many are calling "piston slap" on two other occasions a couple of months ago (in warmer weather). I hope this is not the beginning of a bigger problem.

[miktvk]

Model: 07 Mini Cooper S - Manual
Build Date: eary build, December 2006
Miles: approx 2200 in early Dec '07
Duration: 2-3 Mins
Frequency: (times per month/week) every time I drove it from cold start
RPM range: idle - 2000+
Ambient Temp: +20 to +33f
Oil: OEM

Any other relevant information: Level garage parking. Chain tensioner replaced, but not confident this will be permanent fix, 3400 miles now (Mar 4). Noticed very slight and sporatic return of noise, but no consistency. Example: Started car at 5 degrees F, after sitting in very cold air for a whole week undriven, no noise. Drove 130 miles to CT, next morning, 30 d outside, kinda heard it, just a wee bit.

[fbirch]

[quote=msh441;2071733]

Originally Posted by korby

Model:R56S manual
Build Date: 01-07
Miles: started at 6000
Duration: 2-3 minutes immediately upon start-up
Frequency: Started out once every 2-3 weeks. After a couple months it was once or twice a week. Around 10000 miles it was at leats once a day.
RPM range: idel-2000
Ambient Temp: Didn't seem to matter... 20-40 F. It got worse over summer/and went into the shop in the fall.
Oil: Factory recomended. Checked at every fuel-up. Never low. Changed at around 1000 miles. Then again at 7000 (when the chain tensioner was replaced). Plus during another service adressing this issue. Oil was drained and the system purged each time to try and eliminate the possibility of air in the oil circut. Didn't work. Oil pressure measured when rattling away. Shown to be witing spec.

Any other relevant information: Angle had no effect on mine. It was always on a level drive at home and work. Replaced 2 cam chain tensioners, one cam chain, VANOS solonoid, valves and guides. Totally rebuilt the head. Again, ne effect. New engine installed at 11000 miles. Haven't been through the break in yet... but al is well 500 miles into the new block/head.



So that's #13.

I know a #14 (in my MINI club - has no interest in NAM and wouldn't post here if she did)... and #15 (who's here, but would like to remain annonymous)...

So taking Matt's analysis (which I think to be fairly accurate)... thats getting up to 3.75%.

If MINI sold 16212 R56S's in 2007 (http://www.gbmini.net/wp/mini_sales/) and 3.75% are effected... thats 607 cars that are likley to be experiencing this issue right now. And that's assuming it's only effecting S's... which only time will tell.

I have a feeling the frequency of occurence could be higher than 3.75% - maybe significantly so. I've read many posters on this forum and the other one state that it happened to them once or twice so they don't consider it a big deal. I know for sure that there are participants on this forum who've made nonchalant references to the problem in other threads but haven't posted on this thread. Because they don't view it as a big deal, they can't be bothered to list all the data being asked for here. As you noted, there are others who prefer not to reveal that their car has a problem for several other reasons as well. It wouldn't surprise me if the frequency of this problem turned out to be upwards of 10%, and that would be an apallingly huge flaw to make it past alpha and beta testing and into the finished product. If this problem really does relate to a lack of engine lubrication, it could prove to have serious long term mechanical consequences, and BMW's warranty reserve account will be taking a hit to resolve it. Apple lost a class action lawsuit when the batteries in their original iPods fell a few percent short of expected capacity. It's hard to imagine that there won't be a number of enterprising law firms somewhere in this litigous land that will be happy to go after BMW too. I believe BMW will want to make things right for their customers for the sake of their own reputation.

[ekg]

Model: MCS
Build Date: Aug 2007?
Miles: 6000-10000
Duration: 20 minutes
Frequency: (times per month/week) 3 times since Dec 9, 2007
RPM range: idle-3k+
Ambient Temp: -10F, 0, +17F
Oil: factory

Any other relevant information:
1st occurrence: full tank of gas, stored in non heated garage
2nd occurrence: 1/4 tank of gas, was in outdoor parking lot, limped for several miles, stopped and restarted just fine.

Dealer "fix:" (while car was running fine) Run car at high RPM to "evaporate" water, use most of my gas and return car "fixed"

3rd occurrence: after "repair" by dealership, full tank of gas, sat outside in single digit weather for 10 hours - started and ran fine, drove to work - parked in 17F weather for 9 hours - experienced issue after work

This isn't just "noise" in my case: idiot lights on, backfiring, excessive exhaust, no power, reving

[Azfalconfixer]

Model: MCS
Build Date: Nov 07
Miles: 2000
Duration: 30 sec
Frequency: (times per month/week) Happened twice
RPM range: Idle
Ambient Temp: 60's
Oil: Factory

Any other relevant information:

Happened once after being parked nose down a slope.

[Sundevil]

Model: 2007 MCS
Build Date: Sept. 2007
Miles: 6,000
Duration: 2 minutes
Frequency: (times per month/week) 8 times! It started in December 2007
RPM range: 1,000 to 1,500
Ambient Temp: 37F to 47F
Oil: Stock

Any other relevant information: Had Niello MINI looked at the issue, but was told that it is normal for this car.

[bitharvest]

Model: 2007 MCS
Build Date: 03/07
Miles: 8995
Duration: 30-90 seconds
Frequency: several times a week, depending on the temp and how long the car has sat
RPM range: idle to 2500
Ambient Temp: 27-42
Oil: factory oil

Any other relevant information:
car is always parked on a level surface. sometimes, the noise is *very* loud (like a diesel slap), othertimes, it just sounds like a bad valve tap. as time goes on, the problem is getting more frequent.

[bmbleB07]

Model: 2007 MCS R56
Build Date: Nov 06
Miles: 13500
Duration: 1-2 min
Frequency: (times per month/week) 4-10 per month
RPM range: idle
Ambient Temp: 40 ish
Oil: Castrol 5/30 stock, replaced @ 2500

Any other relevant information: continues to return after service...

1st service on issue Feb : service bulletin fix attempted fixed in 5 trys, cam chain tensioner replaced anyways.

->UPDATED 4/1/08

2nd service (took 9 days): They replaced the timing chain and the cam chain tensioner. The next two days after i got it back, we had some of the coldest weather and never made a peep! but i will put money on the noise coming back (hope not)

->Updated 1/15/09

Noise Has developed and returned! Along with the annual temperature drop in Portland Oregon. Very VERY dissapointed but clearly mini cannot do anything about it. Will looking to Getting a different car! Goodby MINI, it was fun while it lasted..

[inomis]

Cooper S, 6-Speed Manual
Build Date: Jan 2007
Miles: 7000+
Duration: 30 seconds to 1 minute
Frequency: 3 times
RPM range: idle to 2000+
Ambient Temp: mid 30's
Oil: Original factory fill, once on Mobile 5w-30, once after dealer fill.

Any other relevant information:
Car parked flat. Twice after overnight parking, once at the end of a work day. Car has started OK many times at lower temps. Sounds like poorly adjusted valves to me. I believe the lifter drain-down theory.

[wal]

Model: R56 Mini Cooper S
Build Date: Bought Dec 06 from Derek Woodman, Blackpool, UK
Miles: 18000
Duration: 2-3 minutes
Frequency: (times per month/week) several per week
RPM range: 0-2000
Ambient Temp: doesn’t seem to matter?
Oil: OEM

Any other relevant information: often get a quick (1/2 second) burst of the same noise, then quiet. Noise always occurs after ½ second of normal engine noise before turning in to a tractor engine!..

[rippymcs]

Model: 2008 MINI Cooper S R56
Build Date: 2/10/2008 (approx)
Miles:235
Duration: approx 2 min
Frequency: (times per month/week) once so far on March 25, 2008
RPM range:
Ambient Temp: low 30's
Oil: factory

Any other relevant information:
Car had not been driven for four days, but engine had been started briefly couple of times.
Update: as of May 7, 2008 -- no noise since 03/25/08

[bitharvest]

bad video and more importantly, good audio, of the cold start "noise" my mini experienced the other morning, and on many others...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ6cbW_DRY4