Cold start issues database

[ricbow]

r56 just a cooper, build date/03 08, miles 10,857, duration first 5 min,frequency every day,rpm range 900 up, ambient temp does't mater,oil 5w 30

[schmoopy]

Just did it today for the first time
2008 MCSa build of 07/08 with 2,100 miles
NYC avg. temps. today 47-50 degrees.
**Drove around for about 5 minutes total this morning before parking it.
**Parked from 10 a.m. until 5 p.m. then it happened upon startup for about 2/3 minutes. Sounded very bad.

[rippymcs]

I wanted to do my own experiment on the theory that short engine run with extended rest afterwards causes loud engine chatter the next time engine is started.

Day 1 night: before I went to sleep, I started the engine (cold) and ran it for less than 10 seconds in the garage.
Day 2 morning: started the engine after it's been cold for over 8 hours, and within 3 seconds, the loud chatter began. I immediately shut the engine off, waited 15 seconds before I restarted the engine. Noise is gone. Went about my day.
Day 2 night: repeated the procedure from day 1 night.
Day 3 morning: started the engine and there's chatter noise upon initial couple of seconds, but not as bad as the noise from previous morning. The noise dissipated a little, but I turned off the engine anyway and waited few seconds. Restarted the engine and no chatter.

So for now, if I encounter engine chatter again, I'm going to shut the engine off and restart it after waiting for a few seconds. This doesn't fix the original problem, but until MINI has a permanent fix, it's a viable remedy for temporarily eliminating the noise.

[SNOTQT]

My 08 Clubman S has been loud on ALL cold start-ups since I bought the vehicle in June. I told my dealer that it sounds like an old VW bug when I start up. Naturally when it was in their shop they couldn’t hear it. (B.S.!)
Thanks to all for putting this together, I will be contacting my dealer for a replacement engine. (after BMW accepts the fact that there is a problem)

[daveK9]

My '08 continues to have an issue, this morning it lasted a few longer than I wanted to wait, but I did... just let it idle until it cleared ~4 min's. it was 26 deg F.
Last night I had driven it about 7 miles before parking it so I would not call that a short run like a driveway move I had done in the past.
The car was parked in a 40 deg F. garage on level ground.
Thanks for comments, we need a fix!!!!

[MiniTim77]

I think I just heard the knocking when I started up this morning.
I have an 09 that I picked up in early October with 1800 miles on it. It just got it's first oil change last night. Mobil 1 - (0w-30)

It wasn't very loud, just sounded a little like a diesel. It ran a little rough for the first two accelerations, but not bad. And I think it was quiet after about 3 minutes. It was 33 degrees this morning. I may have heard the sound before but didn't pay much attention because it was very quiet.

I'm new to NAM and happy to stumble across these posts. I'm not real concerned about this problem but I will be keeping a close eye on it. And will definately bring it to the dealer if it gets any worse. At the very least I'll mention it when I am in for my first oil change if it persists. I'll keep posting here with any updates. I think that these type of threads are a great idea.

I have always been a Detroit Big 3 type of car guy... Detroit is were I grew up. A big rumbl'n V8 is like music to my ears. But you just can't beat the perfmormance vs. gas mileage of a Mini. So far I absolutely love this car! It's the first car I have owned that was not made in Detroit. But I have no regrets so far. This car is a blast!

That being said... I don't think that anyone should consider this type of problem not a problem. It shouldn't be expected from brand new car in this price range. I fully intend to take advantage of the warranty while I'm still covered. I have plenty of time so I'm not concerned and again, don't consider this a big issue. I have always thought that cars need a minute to warm up, especially before any spirited driving!

Keep up the good work posters... Thanks for all the info...These threads are good stuff!

[hopper]

Model: MCS
Build Date: 5/2008
Miles: 4500
Duration: 1-4 minutes
Frequency: Quite often now, 50% of mornings.
RPM range: Idle to 2600
Ambient Temp: Ambient temps running in the 40's.
Oil: Mobile1 5w30 (Changed at 1500 miles.)

Any other relevant information: It seems to be happening far more often now. I'm not sure if this is temp related now that it's cool in the northeast or due to numerous short run times repositioning in the garage. (Stored in an unheated, level and dry garage.) I have also noticed this after washing.

[Event-Horizon]

I experienced this again for the first time in almost a year. Yesterday when the temps were in the high 20's my MINI made the dieseling sound. I didn't have time for it to warm up so I drove on. The engine continued to make the dieseling sound for a minute or more.

Currently I am running Castrol 5w-40 A3/B3 BMW LL-01 oil with 4500 miles since the oil change. I am do for an oil change by Mini in approx 2500 miles which they will use the Mini 5w-30 oil. I would almost prefer they use the 0w-30 Castrol that I used at the beginning of the year that seemed to silence the cold start issue.

[STaSISnRI]

Model: 2009 MCS
Build Date: 9/08
Miles:2200
Duration:30 second to a minute
Frequency: has only happened twice (that I know of)
RPM range: 850 - 1700
Ambient Temp: below freezing
Oil: still the same oil from the factory

Any other relevant information: It happened once on my way to work in the morning. on a cold morning on a level tarmac surface. The second time it happened was at the dealer the car is in for service right now because the anti theft system goes off for no reason, It happened their, I walking back in , got a tech and he asked me to depress my clutch all the way, that did not change it I did it a second time it went away. So I hope that it happens again so they can fix all the problems so far

PS the second time the "noise" happened I was again on Level Tarmac.

[Aonach]

Model: 2007 MCS
Build Date: 7/07
Miles: 20100
Duration: 30 second to 2 minutes
Frequency: Twice in first Fall 2007 ownership, now 4-6 times Fall/Winter 2008
RPM range: 850 - 1700
Ambient Temp: 30-50
Oil: still the same oil from the factory

Let's face it: with the number of "remedies" dealerships and MINI has been willing to try and the fact that folks with mid & even late 2008 builds (even 9/08!!) are having the same problem, I cannot believe that BMW/MINI even knows for certain what is causing the problem. This has been around since last Fall on MotoringFile, etc and yet they are still producing vehicles with the problem. If they truly knew the problem and the fix, folks like the one above with a 9/08 build wouldnt have this problem.

I told my SA about it and to their credit they searched the database. They said it was due to a possible problem with air in the oil line (or whatever). They flushed it but the probem continues as of late:

What works for me: Stop engine, wait 5 seconds & restart. Usually clears on the first restart. Sometimes it takes 2.

As for the level, mine usually occurs on level parking. HOWEVER, some of the worst knocking has occurred after I have jacked up front wheels to clean them a time or two. This even caused it to knock during the summer in 90+ heat. So I dont totally buy the whole "oil warming up" explanation. Also, I installed my roof rack the other day and it took a lot of pulling / pushing & rocking of the car. Starting up that night in the cold was completely scary. It took 5 restarts and the knocking lasted for 3 minutes straight at RPMs all the way up to 3000 (I couldnt go any further!)

Just my 2 cents. The only thing we can really do is have the SA document the problem on your vehicle. I dont think they even know the exact cause yet.

[thestig]

Model: 2008 R56 S w/JCW tuning kit
Build Date: 05/08
Miles: 6,300
Duration: 2-3
Frequency: 50/50 in sub freezing temps
RPM range: initial start up from idle up to 3000rpm
Ambient Temp: 5-25
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Monday 12/8/08 Noise was heard on startup this morning and lasted approximately 2-3 minutes of light driving. The car had been sitting on the street at level ground for two days. Previous drive lasted 5 minutes. This is not the first time I have heard the diesel clattering noise but the sound used to be infrequent and as temperatures have dropped (23 degrees this morning with previous day temps down to the single digits) it has become almost a 50/50 chance of hearing it if the car has been sitting overnight. I talked to the SA when I was last at the dealer a few weeks ago. He mentioned the tensioning belt issue but that I had the newer part on already. I am scheduled to take the car in to International Autos in West Allis, WI to fix a driver’s window problem on Wednesday. The car will be there at least overnight so I’m hoping the car makes the noise while they have it. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[Diploman]

Today I experienced - for the first time - the dreaded startup clatter on my 07 MCS with 18 K miles. The temperature at startup was about 26 F, and the dieseling sound continued for about 20 seconds.

The startup clatter is certainly disconcerting and a departure from normal engine operation. However, I have yet to see any credible evidence that this behavior actually causes engine damage. Is anyone aware of documented evidence to this effect?

In any case I would greatly prefer that the startup clatter not happen again. I have just received a small (50Watt) heating pad I ordered which attaches to the bottom of the oil pan. I am planning to attach this to the MINI's oil sump as soon as I can figure out where best to route and attach the electrical cord and plug. (Ideas, anyone?) Since this strange startup behavior seems to be mostly a cold-weather phenomenon, I am hoping that it can be avoided by keeping the engine oil warm. (BTW I normally run Mobil 1 0W-40, but at the moment the engine is full of MINI-branded Castrol 5W-30 from the dealer's free one-year service.)

[corcoranwtnet]

I think you should plug it in in the kitchen and route the cord out the back door to the garage.

[daveK9]

Diploman I use 0w40 in my 325is and my 928 and love the stuff. But Mini/BMW recommends 5w30 Castrol.... I think I would go with 0w30 Castrol and not the 0w 40 Mobil1.
Mobil1 does make a 0w30, but I was told it does not have the higher raiting that the BMW recommended Castrol does. just my 2 cents.

I posted a linky to a great write-up on this problem earler on in this thread, check it out.

Thanks for all the posts we ALL need to keep this problem in the spot light and demand a fix or we will all end up with cars that are no longer under warranty with bad valve trains..!!

PS: I now have 14,000 miles

[hopper]

Has anyone spoken to a lemon law or class attorney? I spoke to my local dealer yesterday and the SA said he'll document it, but he doesn't think BMW plans to do anything about it.

[turbo tel]

I'm sitting in The dealership today while they do the timing chain/tensioner modification... I'll tell you how it goes but as I don't drive the car on a daily basis it may be a while..

Like others moving it from the garage to the drive and leaving it a while seems to provoke the problem, I'll try it this weekend.

Terry

[GeorgeM3768]

Model: 2009 Clubman S
Build Date: Sept 09
Miles: 2100
Duration: 10 Seconds. Kill engine, restart and it is fine.
Fequency: Two times in last 400 miles
RPM Range: 700
Temp: Between 60 and 70 degrees F
Oil: I changed the oil at 1500 myself, using Mini 5w30

Any other relevant info:

I just kill the motor and soon as I hear it, wait about 5 seconds and restart. It runs fine after that. Does that work for anyone else? I won't let the engine run see to how long it takes for the noise to go away.

George

[davidbod]

Model: 2008 Clubman S
Build Date: July 08
Miles: 5300
Duration: less than a minute
Fequency: Two times in last 5 days (driven daily)
RPM Range: seems worse around 1500-2000
Temp: around 40-55 degrees F
Oil: as from the factory

The comments from George about killing the engine, waiting and then restarting fixing the problem provide some interesting information and I will certainly try this the next time it happens. It would be interesting to hear from others if the restart technique solves the problem also.

One interesting fact that sticks out for me after reading all of the information is that the problem has been reported to re-occur after a couple of months even after a complete new engine has been installed. The only components that were probably not replaced along with the new engine that could be causing the problem would be some external sensor or the computer itself. I could imagine that killing the engine and restarting as George suggests would re-initialize the sensor and computer and the problem goes away.

Also I find it strange that MINI has not solved the problem even after engines have been sent in for testing and analysis. To me that would suggest that the root cause of the problem is not the engine itself.

[GeorgeM3768]

Davidbob,

After reading all the information I could find on this subject I have tried something over the last 4 days and it appears (hopefully) to have resolved the issue. Mine has just started doing this so hopefully it will not get progressivly worse as others have stated has happened them.

While shutting down and restarting does do the trick for me, I can also reproduce the knocking symptoms by doing the following:

1. Start engine when cold and let it idle for a couple of minutes. Engine runs fine.
2. Let car sit over night (12 hrs).
3. Start car next morning and engine sounds like it wants to be a diesel.

I can get rid of the problem by:

1. Start engine when cold and drive it for at least 10 minutes (or until air coming from heater is as hot as it is going to get).
2. Let car sit overnight (12 hrs).
3. Start car next morning and it runs fine.

I have done this three times now with no issues.

My guess (and it is just a SWAG based on what I have read) is that if you have an S that is predispositioned to have this problem and the last time the engine ran and did not come up to temperature that the next time it is started after sitting for an extended period the problem appears.

I would give it a try as it can't hurt and may help until Mini ever comes up with a fix. Not holding my breath on this one unless we all file complaints to the NTHSB for the safety issue of a stalling engine during these cold start episodes.

Will post back in a week or so as my wife and I are not going to run the car anymore for any short trips during this experiment.

Thanks,
George

[John928]

Model: Cooper S 6 sp.
Build Date: 07/08
Miles: 2,600
Duration: ~3 minutes
Frequency: just started as we have moved to a cold climate
RPM range: 1-2,500 rpm
Ambient Temp: 35-42 deg. F.
Oil: factory fill 5-30W castrol

Any other relevant information:

I was hoping this would not be an issue, as we were living on the MS Gulf Coast when we purchased the car, but we just moved to Southern IN, and the car rattles horribly at start up. Tried waiting 5 seconds and then re-starting, but to no avail. Will try 0-30W castrol syntec, and see if it helps. Car doesn't have a garage slot yet, which might also help. Hope there is a resolution from BMW for this as it is dis-heartening.

[PERNOR56]

Model: cooper s 6 speed
Build Date:07
Miles:20000 kms
Duration:3-5 mins
Frequency: (times per month/week) every day since dec 24th(i live in canada)
RPM range: 2000 and over
Ambient Temp: 1 c and below
Oil: stock

Any other relevant information : this sucks, mini should be ashamed

[PERNOR56]

Lets all make a point of calling our dealers again this week. The more we complain the better chance of getting a fix.

[GeorgeM3768]

All,

Since my last post I have tried the following:

Let the car sit for over 28 hrs after running the car for over 15 minutes.
Result on next start..started fine!

Let the car sit for over 72 hrs after running the car for over 15 minutes.
Result on next start..started fine!

After start sitting for 72 hrs cold and run for 15 minutes, started car after sitting overnight for 10 hrs (started fine) to back it out of garage to wash it and returned to garage to sit for over 8 hours. Guess what, engine want to come apart again!

It seems to me that if this POS engine for those predispositioned with the problem has not had a chance to come up to temp and then sits for a while the issue will appear. I can not speak for those who I have read who continue to let the engine run during this problem as from the sound of metal on metal I have no idea what is wearing down. Each time (4) mine has presented the problem I shutdown the engine, wait a bit, and restart and the sound pretty much goes away.

Who whould of thought that in 2009 this type of engine would be produced! Last BMW experience for me! Sorry, but the sound of metal on metal that this engine emintates during this issues is more than I want to deal with past warranty since dealer tells me this is normal yet can not tell me what is the source of the issue! Glad I did not option out the car other than the S upgrade. Will sell this turd before warranty is up!

Good luck!
George

[SNOTQT]

My 08 Clubman has made the start-up noise since I purchased it in June (warm weather) after it sate for 12 hrs or more. If you see on my profile photos, I park on a downward garde in my drive way. Well since the weather changed I have actually been parking in my non-heated, level garage and sometimes just infront of the garage door. (also level). Since joining NAM, I actually set up me camera several times to record the noise on the level driveway or the level garage; It has started up quietly everytime! Yesterday, I parked on the hill again, (nose down as usual) started it up and it was as loud as ever! (maybe even louder!)

[palandor]

Model: 2007 Cooper S hatchback
Build Date: September 2007
Miles: 12,500 (give or take)
Duration: 5 minutes if only sitting idle, 15-30 seconds if I start driving immediately.
Frequency: (times per month/week) every single time when temp is below ~45 and the car is not warm from recent use. Also occurs frequently but not every time in spring summer & fall.
RPM range: 800-1300
Ambient Temp: under 40 f.
Oil: stock oil from mini.

Any other relevant information: for me, it occurs on any slope or level surface when the car is cold.