of course, none of which were answers to my questions, but thanks for defending your wife.

I wouldn't expect many people to get the joke, least of all many members of this site.

 

And exactly why is this even a question? The site was sold several months ago, I'm still here and work on it every day, and am trying to take all the various points of view into account and solicit ways to improve the site. I guess the definition of selling out means different things to different people

Mark

 

This thread almost went & got productive for a brief spell

 

Yeah...can we get back on topic? I put a challenge out last night (page 3 I believe) and I've only gotten a couple of constructive replies back. If people really want to improve the site I need the input.

Mark

 

That's why we manually each review submitted so that it doesn't get slanted by one member or a group of members.

Mark

 

cool you did see my comment about alphabetizing ehhh?

 

Yeah...I'm looking at the system now to figure out why its not working like I expected. Even when I tell it to sort in a certain way its not doing what I expect.

As some point I should be able to get it to sort on Alpha and I can also bold the rating so it stands out more.

 

 

So I have a few random thoughts after reading this entire thread without comment. I was a loudmouth about Palo Uber and it's the same *sort* of issue, but for different reasons. Anyway, the random thoughts...

1) I think at some point you have to let there be a *little* bit of buyer beware. I know I howled at the moon about PU but that had more to do with a) a refusal to address customer complaints - PAYING customers, no less, and b) the nifty little tax fraud scam they cooked up to try and round up more business. So there is a difference between someone making wild claims (or even not so wild claims) about a product's performance with nothing to back it up and someone selling a customer a product, having it defect or break or peel or crack or warp, or rust, etc, and then refusing to stand by the product. PU did both of these things, and it was not really the claims people were freaking out about. I mean yeah there was some laughter and eye rolling and whatever else about their ridiculous claims but what got people hot was the full-on fraud they were participating in.

2) Related to #1, Let's say a member, new or otherwise, comes online and staggers into a thread where a vendor is making unsubstantiated claims, and a few folks (politely) call them out on it, asking for some results on paper, with no response from that vendor. If that member then goes ahead and chooses to purchase that product, having observed the lack of proof of results after it being requested, then I'm not so sure I feel *too* badly for that member and his lack of smart shopping skills. If they can't see the writing on the wall, I'm not sure how much we should help them. No one hand-holds me at the grocery store yet somehow I manage to do just fine. When questions to a vendor are asked and go unanswered, that should be noted by anyone who's looking for an answer, no?

3) Totally agree with bamatt about the rating system, and she's running with that topic well so I will leave that to her. I will concur and say that while I am a really savvy web-user and can navigate the ratings section fine, I can see how it can be REALLY confusing to someone relatively unfamiliar with it.

4) I don't really understand the whole bit with rounding up a bunch of friends off-site to come in and tag a vendor. I mean I DO, because I understand there is juvenile and unproductive behavior everywhere in life, but I don't get the point is. It is just as useful, and probably more productive and less off-putting to other members, for one person to ask the question at hand...allow a decent response time...try again...etc...ask why the question is being ignored without getting rude about it...etc. Point will be made, believe me. I don't think anyone is hitting an intended target audience by behaving that way; it's merely obnoxious. So maybe those involved in the drive-by gang-bang can take a look at their approach, recognize that it isn't working, and try a different tactic. And maybe the rest of us can be a little more willing to hit the "report" button when it becomes apparent that things are on the verge of control.

All of that said, NAM is a great community, regardless of what the nay-sayers think, we have great members and great vendors (for the most part on both cases) and I think going to a 3rd party ad system denegrates the usefulness of the site for a lot of people. We don't really have THAT many vendors that aren't top-notch, and it's nice for them to have a place with a wide audience in their niche to advertise to...and it's nice for us to have a place to go when we're looking for something specific or looking for a vendor that has what we need. We have a TON of awesome vendors and I think it would be sad to see them kicked to the wayside just because a handful of people can't play nice. Perhaps it's those handful of people that should be removed, eh?

 

 

Well.... This thread is now about useless..... It's denigrated to name calling, trolling and the kind of crap that was being discussed in the first place.

Face it... Mark developed a "product", grew it and then sold it. If you don't like it, put in a bad review and/or go to the competition. Just quit the name calling (Kelly Girl's comment)....its sophomoric and completely off topic. (Link is to the definition in case you need it...)

Dan's got it right, my thinking is the threads where this type of conflict arises could be toned down by the surgical application of the moderators' attentions. If a couple of people get their feathers ruffled and leave because a moderator "asked" them to tone it a bit, then so be it.

If someone posts an outright lie about a vendor or product, that can be dealt with.

... and if a vendor IS advertising and/or promoting crap products, then by all means, I want to hear about it from other members. Maybe negative feedback will prompt vendors to put a little more R&D behind their promotions and a little less fanboi hype noise.

The vendors like to advertise here because it is a targeted ad expense aimed right at the largest collection of MINI owners other than MINIUSA's own list. Cheap advertising aimed right at the heart of the American MINI market.

Direct customer feedback is just one of the "benefits" of the ad placement. If anecdotal user based results and feedback seems like an attack on a vendor, then let them repudiate with real research and not just more marketing hype.

The MINI (Trident based) is a mature product and the experiences of its owner base are more valuable to me than the hype and marketing noise of a manufacturer or vendor.

 

<sigh>

All this productivity, and thoughtfulness...and it leads nowhere. The vendors are the problem. Someone mentioned something about "going to a 3rd party ad system denegrates the usefulness of the site for a lot of people"...we have it now. See the left side of your page. The point here is that you will NEVER EVER remove these issues from this site. You have vendors that suck that are protected by the moderators and owners of the site who are protecting their financial interests.

Nothing that will ever be said here, or any fancy BS "review system" that isn't indexed with the rest of the forum is going to fix the problems that:

A) Randy, and M7 are full of it, and continually lie, cheat, and insult the members of this community.

B) The moderators take action against members of the community for their attempt to police what the mods will not. Vicious or not, someone needs to do it. Clearly the site administration cannot be relied upon.

C) Those in power have sidestepped every valid point that has been broached in this discussion.

There are no "constructive" ways to fix this issue. Greed is at the heart of all of these problems. The only way to address them is to remove it from the equation. You can chase your tail trying to "address the problem" all you want. However, the heart of the matter remains:

Dollar > The people of NAM.

 

Boy - if you find the site so distasteful then why do you and all the other people interested in complaining spend time here? Either help come up with some constructive ideas or move on. If you want to have a MINI site without vendors then by all means start one up. Heck I'll even give you the full list of software needed to build your own.

Mark

 

wow....two people I've had a previous fracas with, agreeing with me. what's next? dogs and cats living in peace? The Yanks and Sox liking each other?

Ironic, as this was a wonderful PM I got from a moderator (name removed to protect the guilty):

Again, I say to Mark....rotation of moderators is key to a healthy site. Ego trips are not conducive to level-headed decision making when it comes to managing users and posts.

 

same reason i read tabloids. for the entertainment value

 

Its one thing to read tabloids versus writing for them.

 

you write for them too?

 

This thread is a prime example of the problem...

It is NOT vendors..

It has always been an issue of the anonymity of the web..

when your name is not on your post.. you can write anything you want without seem repercussions.

when I first got my MINI, I was on this site ALL the time. .the infighting and the general lake of common decency drove me away..

I came back when I ordered my clubman, but was sad to see that little has changed.

You don't like Peter or M7.. so you bash his gear..

you don't like Jan so you bash his gear..

I find this kind of amusing.. but the part I find MOST amusing is that it is always the same people. I think it would have more weight if the bashers were not so obviously shills...

Want me to think that you have no personal stake in what you are writing.. for god's sake.. DONT have the web site of your personal manufacturer in your sig..

Don't get on and continuely write the same drivel over and over again.. there is a series of posts in one forum about how messed up the MINI GPS search function is... the guy who wrote, comes back at least once a week and says exactly the same thing!!.. HEY>> I GOT IT THE FIRST TIME!!!!

It is also very very difficult to have sarcasm and humor come accross correctly on a written thread..



this all being said .. i will continue to visit the threads that are of interest to me and ignore the bs that a small group throws around to make themselves feel important...




btw.. I have little or no products from these vendors...

 

In most communities you have a neighborhood watch. If those watches find problems (ie - they see the same people causing the same problems) they bring it to the attention of the whole community. Why not implement that here? If there are people that the community feels are causing problems then let's get a list up to vote if they should stay or go.

With the community involvement and decision making process it would be more democratic that what people feel that I or the mod team is able to achieve. This would be the who is on the island and who should be voted off process.

Mark

PS - And before anyone makes a snarky comment about voting me off the island...don't worry I want off the island. As soon as I have people and processes in place that will insure NAM can move forward and grow I will be moving on to my goal of focusing on software development for communities.

 

Comments on a few things you've brought up..

Regarding point A: You've offered your opinion.. repeatedly, continuously, incessantly, un-waveringly.... We get it! You don't like them. Thank you for your opinion. But please, at some point you need to give us (the other NAM readers) a rest. If you've been wronged by one of the vendors, then its great that you let us know.... once.

Its not great if you've heard about it being bad or if one of your fanboi buddies has had a problem and you're jumping in just to pile on the complaint. It dilutes the value of the warning to stay away because it seems more like a personal pissing contest between you and the vendor than over the products worth.

These are strong words! Their use in a public forum have impact and weight that you may not be considering. It'd give you more credibility and help us evaluate whether to buy their products or not if you would tell us exactly what the lie was, exactly how they are cheating us and tell us what the insult was.

Point B: Vendors have been asked to leave NAM before.

Point C: The fact that some of us think that a possible solution to this is to allow (or encourage) the mods to start "managing" these outbreaks indicates that some of us think there needs to be more involvement of NAM leadership.

As far as the money issue..... just get over it. Its a business, just like the one that issues you a paycheck. If you go to a bar and the owner is giving a gorgeous woman at the bar free drinks; serves the guy next to you a drink with an extra shot in it because he comes in every day for 3 years and spends $20 each time; and pours you a draft beer that could be a little colder because the keg was just changed, are you going to stand outside the door and yelling that the owner is a liar, a cheater and has insulted you ?





Man....... watch what you say about my Red Sox! That's a little close to home there....

 

Personally, I love my MINI, and I enjoy cruising the twisties of NAM. So, I hope the rest of you guys don't mind if I remain totally clueless as to what this thread is all about. I would prefer to just stick my head in the sand and keep on enjoying myself.

 

Like voting Andy Kaufman off SNL...

I'm not optimistic that this "democratic" approach will work. Specifically because of the same "ganging up" behavior that is the root of the very problem we are discussing.

In the end, someone (or some group) needs to be responsible for rule enforcement and moderation.

 

I agree, and I think there are probably just too many variables for it to work...including a vast majority of the membership who has no clue what we're even talking about.

I do think it would work if moderators collaborated to decide who the troublemakers are and who to toss, however. They probably have more of a finger on the pulse of what's going on than the general membership population.

Do we have enough mods? Are we understaffed in that area?

 

No. But if the owner refused to replace the flat warm beer and then the chick and the regular began to tell you to just shut the hell up, you know nothing about beer and it's probably your own fault that the beer is flat and warm then you would probably get a little pissed.

 

yeah you would get very pissed, say to hell with that place, & never go back again because if you kept going back & harassing the bartender you would get arrested