spent a day at SPI trying out some things and dyno-jetting (20 runs).

base line was 179 hp, same as last recorded at Helix on the Mustang, except the car now has the AMD One-chip. (we weren't able to switch back to compare, but I didn't expect much hp changes)
SPI uses SAE corrected wheel hp readings. (For example, 198whp SAE, would be 207 whp uncorrected, 204 whpDIN)

the point of the day was to try out the piggy-back A'pexi SP II fuel management controller. This baby lets you transparently add or subtract to what the ECU has determined is the appropriate pulses/sec for the injectors and you can do this at 200rpm increments over the rpm range. Testing the result is done on the dyno, measuring power and wideband O2 fuel/air mix. We aimed for 12:1 in the >5k range. My car has the 19% pulley, 61mm throttle body, Super sprint header, ACT Cat, 2-1/2"exhaust, intake, AMD One-click as the major tweaks.

we were able to get to a very repeatable 188whp, SAE.
Interesting point 1: we had to add fuel in the 5-7k range, eventually maxing out the injectors' capacity, implying larger injectors, suitably Apexi'd back as needed. It looked like 195hp could be reached. Boost readings were about 20psi read at the intake manifold with the Autometer gauge
Interesting point 2: we swapped out the custom intercooler made for the Twinchargd car and instantly got a repeatable 198hp, here max boost was 18psi, presumably lower boost due to the colder air, and more power due to the colder and denser air. Hubie tried to get 200hp for the record book, but even adding 25% with the A'pexi had no effect. again, larger injectors are called for.

conclusions:
the A'pexi tuning extracted 10hp, and is a very useful gadget; (highest reading 188hp)
with larger injectors, there is more power to be had (I'm running the 19% and 18-20 psi max boost);
with better intercooling there is another 10hp; (highest reading 198hp)
with larger injectors and better intercooling, perhaps another 5-10hp, reaching 205?

As far as the Twincharged car, a bit more info.

the cost is high because the components add up:
custom intercooler, four new injectors, Turbo and exhaust manifold, A'pexi, Boost relief valve, as well as the interconnecting tubes and fittings. This package is meant to be applied to an otherwise stock car (maybe exhaust) and will add 100hp (given that stock is 150whp)
The design intent was to make a fairly simple bolt-on, which is why he kept the blower. Ditching it and going full blown turbo would make much more power, but then there are water pump issues and a lot more mechanical tweaking.

 

AWESOME information. Sounds like you had a blast...an you didn't even go anywhere. Tuning on the dyno sure beats judging by the seat of you pants. Instead of adding mods to my yet to arrive MCS I just need to live my life vicariously thru you. Keep us in the loop.

 

jlm,

Awesome info. Was the larger intercooler front mounted? It looked like it gave you 10hp, is that correct?

 

Definitely don't run the injectors at max, somewhere along 85% duty cycle is safer and better for longevity. Sounds like time to step them up.

I like the Apexi electronics, and using their S-AFC on my Evo was worth 30+ awhp at 20psi. If you think the MCS defaults to pig rich at RPM, do a search for Evo 8 dyno/AF plots... looks like a cliff diver in free fall.

_________________

 

jlm, do you have any dyno information on the one-click alone? why did you choose to go with that over other commercially available ECU's?

i know you are serious about tuning and trust your opinions - look forward to hearing your answer on this.

-ABT-

 

the one click improved my mpg by about 5mpg; previously it sucked. No hp gains, but a nice throttle response. IMO, the oneclick got closer to the best A/F ratio, but it took the piggyback to make the most of it.

yes, the intercooler produced a repeatable 10hp and it was a custom, larger unit mounted right where the stocker goes. Hard to say what the comparison would be with the vehicle in motion, but I am working on a test setup to monitor pressure and temp across the intercooler while driving on the road. should be definitive.

 

why would you not go with an ECU program that is claimed to give 10-12 horsepower? (i.e. Webb or EVOtech).... if you are dynoing and adding all those upgrades it would seem horsepower is your goal, not "driveability."

I respect your motives but questions which quest you are on! horsepower or driveability? does one not get the driveability with the other chips?

 

>>why would you not go with an ECU program that is claimed to give 10-12 horsepower? (i.e. Webb or EVOtech).... if you are dynoing and adding all those upgrades it would seem horsepower is your goal, not "driveability." >>
>>I respect your motives but questions which quest you are on! horsepower or driveability? does one not get the driveability with the other chips?

Umm, no single chip is going to be perfect in every car. Ideally a remapped ECU with an S-AFCII to fuel-tune and extract that last amount of hp is the best solution IMHO.

2Cool is right, you don't want to be running the injectors wide open at 100% duty cycle, better to run her a litte conservative like 85%.

Finally, COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE PROVIDE A WIRING DIAGRAM FOR THE S-AFC II.

thanks,

amir

 

I was one of the first to have an Evo; that was pre-pulley! It did absolutely nothing on the dyno (except rasie the redline. I sent it back. When I put on the 15% pulley, I sent a couple to Evo for theri programming tests. In exchange,m they sent ,me a new map. It als o did absolutely nothing and I was told by Renntech this was the same map they were doing for Randy. My plan was to wait for the GIAC, but then the One-click was handy and it has improved the mpg (5 mpg over the Evo). My car has been on the dyno (and the dragstrip) for many, many runs and never shown any gains from the Evo, despite claims by others of 5-10 hp. The One-click has the handy swappability function as well; I got fed up with sending my ECU to Florida.

I will still put in the GIAC and use the A'pexi to uber-tweak. One advantage of the chip is that they tweak the iming. The A'pexi only controls fuel.

My car is easily driveable (daily), but that mught be a personal thing. I drove the 250hp Twincharged mini and that was easy to drive. I have never had any stumble or yo-yo; now those I would say interfere with driveability. As far as the quest, I probably won't stop dinking around for a while, but the car will always be a daily driver. I'm interested in improving power, power band and reliability.

_________________
""the onus of proof is on he who asserts the positive."

 

jlm,

Are you going to replace the injectors? Peter at M7 has some larger ones that he sells. I can't remember the price. It would be interesting to see those on the car, then you can tweak it all the way without maxing the injectors out.

 

a set of injectors can run about $400 so I want to make the change once. SPI had a set of larger ones in his twinbcharged setup, but they were probably too large for my rig. since I am awaiting a modded head, I wanted to do a bit of research before i get them. They will definitely come though.

 

i find that intriguing what you said about the EVO.. i was under the impression it gave upwards of 10-12 horses based on reviews from multiple sources.... to hear you say the One Click works better for you is odd. That is actually interesting. have you tried the Webb/powerchips ECU? what is your view on that unit? how did you accurately gauge a 5 mpg increase? the computer tallies its ratings on your entire tank, does it not?

not trying to doubt you, i'd like for this to be true. a good backup case for the one-click!

what do you think of Randy's new piggyback item, the UNICHIP? it should be available real soon (within a week if not out already), where you can program your own maps).

have you seen this?

http://www.webbmotorsports.com/forum...53aacacf4ceba6

cheers
-ABT-

 

I measured mpg the ol-fashioned way. I was concerned because i was just barely getting 200 miles per 10-11 gal tank, mixed driving; now the last tanks were 250 miles for 8 gallons on the road, 250 for 10 gal mixed driving, more or less.

As an indication of skill and effort required, Garret, the GIAC Guru, has been working his *** off, with Eric doing literally hundreds of dyno test runs, to devlop their ecu tune. It is hard to believe this process is for the do it yourselfer. Maybe I mis-understand Randy's product application. If his product is tunable and re-tunable by Randy, that is one thing, but the ability to tweak your fuel maps, pushing the envelope for power, is risky, no matter whose product you are using. It really needs to be done on the dyno, so that rules out the home garage job. Then ultimately, what you have if you get it right, is what every chip tuner is already trying to get right, and apparently can't do, since this product has surfaced as a solution. Makes you wonder if Randy is dissatisfied with the chips he has already developed and has found this as a way to do more of his own tune.

As far as the Evo, I have seen three versions first hand and they have done absolutely nothing, all tested on the same dyno at vaious times. I have to be skeptical of 10 hp claims, which are a-plenty, until proven otherwise.

_________________
""the onus of proof is on he who asserts the positive."

 

hmmm... so you say the One-Click is one of the best out there, eh?

thanks for the input jlm.
cheers
-ABT-

 

I'm thinking the GIAC will be the best.
EAch of Randy's releases have been promoted as the best, and now he is coming out with yet another, so it seems in the $700 market there is on-going improvement.

For $400, I think the One-click did a good job.

 

If I remember from Randy's initial Webb-Powerchips ECU post, he tuned that ECU with dyno and road runs over a 2 or 3 day period. And if I'm not mistaken, he's tuning the Superchips over a long weekend. This is why I'm pretty confident that the GIAC, which has been tuned for over a year and a half, will be the best ECU.

 

i heard GIAC will make a program for the 15, 17, and 19% pullies.... but one question: what if i will be switching between the 15 and the 19 seasonally? will they have a "switchable" program, or would it just make more sense to go with the one-click?

cheers
-ABT-

 

Well if AMD only has a program for the 15%, what difference would that make? I'd run the 19% GIAC program. So you'd run the 19% pulley and software optimally most of the year and if you were really worried about the summer heat you could use the 15% pulley and 19% software which would probably (although I don't know for sure) make the MINI run a tad richer. If anything, that should give you even more security.

 

The reason I have continued to do development isn't because the tunes from other makes are not working, it is that I have been able to get better performance the more I develop.

Eric has posted the numbers of the Garrett stuff compared to the numbers from Evotech and Powerchip, and it within a couple ft/lbs - the margin of error just about.

The GIAC will probably be very good, as Eric and Garrett have been working hard on it. They haven't been working continuously on it however, and to say that just because it has taken this long to get to market is because they have been in development this long just wouldn't be accurate. Like I said, I think GIAC knows their stuff, and when it is available, I will look at that too - I've already talked to Eric several times about it. I am always trying to bring the very best to market for my customers, which is why I am constantly developing new paths to get there.

The EVOTech is a good tune for most cars; as jlm discoverd, not for all. His car is an isolated case - a problem car, and I think he would say that. Unless you are building a program for a specific car and set of mods, that will happen. I went to the Powerchip Group because they were much easier to work with, being in California, and they offered serial kits to program the cars - allowing customers to do the install without rendering the car useless without an ECU.

Powerchip did a great deal of development on the MINI tuning, then I spent two days tweaking with them from there. It didn't happen overnight, but we worked diligently until it was through.

Once you get all of the codes, the tuning doesn't take all that long.

I am now researching the UNIChip (and in fact I'm typing this from Portland where I'm spending the week doing more development) to bring something new to the market. Am I happy with the programming of the Powerchip/Webb ECU? Absolutely. The UNIChip goes toward taking the next step in tuning to provide the following advantages:

A) If you have a load bearing dyno, and an authroized tuner, it is custom tunable for both ignition and fuel, at an incredible density.

B) It cannot be overwritten with a flash from the dealer.

C) You have a product in hand, in the form of a plug and play harness, and a preprogrammed unit that we are tweaking this week.

D) There is an A/B switch, which allows for two programs, plus the ability to remove the unit and return to stock.

All of these are advantages over the current flash programs, and it has taken several trips here and a very nice dyno set up to work out. The tuning capability is there, but only for qualified tuners (who have received the full training program from UNIChip - of which there are several around the country).

There is a ton of tuning that has to be done, and I worked from 7:45am to 8:00pm the last two days to get it done, and we aren't finished yet (I'm there all week; try the beef and tip the waiters :smile: .

Hope that helps!

Randy

 

Randy, how about other tuners, like myself i am not a certified UNIchip tuner, but have had many years experience tuning others, like Haltec, Holley, Accel, etc... I am really intrested in this unit, but i feel in my particular application, my rally car non of your preprogramed programs are going to work for me, not any fault of yours of course, but the "odd" mods on this car i personally dont think you have worked on a map for it, it does need a custom map all its own.... I am sure your set of maps are going to work great, for certain number of mods and/or combinations, but this particular app is out on the edge, will i be able to tune it?...

PS have you gotten my messages, via phone and your website?

 

I'll find out if there is someone in your area. The issue is how to use the software. It is very dense, and the fuel and timing are tweaked. You can blow the motor in no time if you aren't familiar with the interface.

You can definitely get a custom program though.

What do you have on the car? I have a map for a car with the head, cam, throttle body, intake, header, exhaust, pulley, and intercooler.

Randy

PS - You're on the list to get back to! I didn't want to call late east coast time though.

 

That map would work for my car, but the race car has larger supercharger, custom pistons and rods, huge injectors as we have talked about before, custom intercooler, etc etc. The compression has been dropped to about 7.5-1 and the boost is around 32psi....Once again this is a full race prepared motor, not a "street" car even though it does do transits on the street, , but do realize how fast it can happen. i would like to do it myself but if i have to take to someone i will

Also will the "norm" public be able to change from your preset progams? Meaning if they had a certain set of mods, bought your ecu, then upgraded more mods, would they be able to change the presets or will the piggyback, have to be sent to be reprogrammed? I know the system has two settings, but if ther were to want a "street/track" setup with those. Im asking because i hope to be selling some of these, now that i have you logo back up on my site

Thanks Again Randy!!

Trey

 

As it only has an A and B map, if they wanted to change the mapping, and had already used A/B for race/street, they would have to either 1. go to an authorized tuner from UNIChip and have it reprogrammed on the dyno (custom tune) or 2. send the original module back and have it swapped for the new one (which doesn't down the car - it just runs on the stock program until you get the module back).

Let me know if you have any other questions :smile:

Randy

 

Question for jlm, can you post the SAFC settings you ended up with? I am curious to see the fuel curve changes that you found to work best.

 

>>That map would work for my car, but the race car has larger supercharger, custom pistons and rods, huge injectors as we have talked about before, custom intercooler, etc etc. The compression has been dropped to about 7.5-1 and the boost is around 32psi....Once again this is a full race prepared motor, not a "street" car even though it does do transits on the street, , but do realize how fast it can happen. i would like to do it myself but if i have to take to someone i will
>>
>>Also will the "norm" public be able to change from your preset progams? Meaning if they had a certain set of mods, bought your ecu, then upgraded more mods, would they be able to change the presets or will the piggyback, have to be sent to be reprogrammed? I know the system has two settings, but if ther were to want a "street/track" setup with those. Im asking because i hope to be selling some of these, now that i have you logo back up on my site
>>
>>Thanks Again Randy!!
>>
>>Trey


I would say that if you have a race setup running at 32psi with your compression ratio, I wouldn't even look at the "over the counter" chips coming to market. Everything is a compromise. The factory chip is a compromise, and so are the performance chips. If you have such a far out setup, you need to get it custom tuned. GIAC makes custom chips (I have seen them on $150,000 Porsches) as well as many others, which require work at their facility. I am also not sure why you are running a race prepared motor on the stock ECU. Doesn't make sense.