You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!
I just read an article in the October issue of CAR Magazine called "MINI Grows Up." The photos in the article are all based on the fact that the MINI has grown larger and more soft due to American tastes. It basically blames American consumers for the new MINI's loss of some of it's soul and character (at least that was my take on it). However, it wasn't all bad. The car was described as improved in refinement and speed. But I think the point is that the new MINI appears to be built in order to appeal to the masses and therefore I fear that its standing as an enthusiasts car will diminish slightly.
This picture says a lot:
__________________
2010 JCW Clubman, 1995 BMW 530i, 1978 BMW 530i
Previous cars: 2006 MINI Cooper, 04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 GT
I dunno, as an American I'm feeling pretty guilt-free here.
According to MINI2, R56 is designed from the start for use of run-flat tires, unlike R50/53. That'd account for some difference in suspension set-up. Maybe we (Americans) can take a hit on that for helping to raise the issue, but if BMW is purposefully designing for less-harsh run-flat use, then that's on them, not us.
As far as size...I thought Euro pedestrian safety standards had more to do w/ re-contouring the front end than anything. As for the back of the car, who knows? If any Americans really want a bigger MINI, I haven't met them, and even if I had, adding an inch or so isn't really going to appease them, is it?
I look forward to seeing the article, thanks for sharing. The view of this MINI as "more refined/grown up" seems to be a reoccuring theme, based on my reading. I will say this, if it is more refined the tuners are gonna have a field day w/ it!!!
As far as it appealing to the masses....sure why not? Sir Alec would be very proud. Let's not forget, MINIs are a people's car.....AND an enthusiast car. Why not have both?
Let's not forget, MINIs are a people's car.....AND an enthusiast car. Why not have both?
As long as they can do both, more power to MINI. I've said several times before that I am reserving my final judgement until it comes out so I can drive it, and I think a lot of people are in that boat. But when I think of a "people's" car, the name CIVIC comes to my mind Now I'm not saying the new MINI will be anything like the CIVIC. As long as MINI preserves those things that make the car unique I'm sure it will be a great car. Nothing says that a good car can't appeal to everyone. I can't remember the exact wording but the article mentions that MINI's appeal reaches across gender and socio-economic lines. Nevertheless I have little confidence in the tastes of the average (mostly American) consumer when it comes to choosing an automobile.
__________________
2010 JCW Clubman, 1995 BMW 530i, 1978 BMW 530i
Previous cars: 2006 MINI Cooper, 04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 GT
... MINIs are a people's car.....AND an enthusiast car. Why not have both?
I thought the VW Bug was the people's car.
Why is it every manufacturer thinks every new model has to be bigger? I know obesity is a problem, does making bigger cars incentivize losing weight?
AMG, Bentley, etc. have proven big cars can be for enthusiasts. What does MINI have to prove?
__________________ Visit Arizona... speed for the cameras and reduce our budget deficit!
2007 MCS JCW Dark Silver/Black DSOC89 Traded Swifty 10/20/11 My Flickr
I have little confidence in the tastes of the average (mostly American) consumer when it comes to choosing an automobile.
Well that's for sure...we've been automotively anesthetized for a long, long time!
I hear lots of folks here (and at my office, believe it or not) expressing more and more the desire to have fun in their motoring for a change. Well if they want fun, that's what Minis/MINIs are all about...surely BMW knows this very, very well.
" The photos in the article are all based on the fact that the MINI has grown larger and more soft due to American tastes. It basically blames American consumers for the new MINI's loss of some of it's soul and character (at least that was my take on it). However, it wasn't all bad. The car was described as improved in refinement and speed. I fear that its standing as an enthusiasts car will diminish slightly.
So it's a stunning 2.4 inches bigger... and feels softer... but everyone who's seen/driven it so far has pretty much universally described it as a faster, better handling car? Basically more BMW now then Rover. Where's the problem?
As far as being an enthusiast's car... it seems like the crop of "R50/53 only" enthusiasts will deminish over time (just based on the fact that times-and cars-change). But I would predict you will have a different batch of "enthusiast" owners coming down the pike. Particularly if the new car threatens to out-perform the previous model.
Owners give their cars 90% of it's character. There are a TON of bland character-less MINIs out there with owners who would never consider making their car unique, adding some performance mod, or seek out a MINI owners event. Then again, there are lots of cars that don't evoke much character (in my mind, at least) that still have a large enthusiast following. Just based on the interest here and on other sites, I think you can safely say that MINI will not become the next $15,000 character-less econobox. The MINI motoring groups are here to stay... but will just be just changing along with the times.
__________________ Founding member of R56 Anonymous. Now repeat after me: "Hello. My name is ____. I'm a driving enthusiast... and I still like the R56!"
So it's a stunning 2.4 inches bigger... and feels softer... but everyone who's seen/driven it so far has pretty much universally described it as a faster, better handling car? Basically more BMW now then Rover. Where's the problem?
Bravo! Thank you, I'm glad someone finally put it in perspective. The Mini is still the Mini. It looks pretty much the same. It will handle and perform, pretty close to how it does now. And let's not forget that the gas mileage is greatly improved. To me, that is making the Mini more like the original Mini.
msh441, let me remind you that I was not trashing on the 07. Like I said, I am going to wait until I can drive it myself. Don't shoot the messenger as I was merely summarizing the message of the article as I perceived it.
That being said, I don't think its fair for you to automatically discount people's concerns about some of the changes. There are certain little characteristics/flaws that some current owners find endearing about their MINIs that won't be in the 07. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that neither you or working4an07 are owners of the current generation. If that is the case, it would make perfect sense that you would want to write off any criticism of the 07 because that is the car you want and you would like to believe you are getting the best possible car for your money. Assuming this might be the case, you could be perceived as being an R53 "hater" just like you criticize those who dare point out any problems they see with the R56. Just because a car is newer, faster, and better handling doesn't necessarily make it better. For example, I would much rather have the last generation of the BMW M5 than the new model even though the new model is "better" in almost every way. So what I'm saying is, that if there are people that decide they don't like things about the R56 for whatever reason, its ok. Not everyone will nor should they be obliged to keep up with the times by preferring the "new and improved" model.
And finally, as for the extra 2.4 inches, no its not a big deal but I think the fear is that the MINI will continue to grow in subsequent generations. Cars tend to do that as they get older (as do people).
__________________
2010 JCW Clubman, 1995 BMW 530i, 1978 BMW 530i
Previous cars: 2006 MINI Cooper, 04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 GT
But I think the point is that the new MINI appears to be built in order to appeal to the masses and therefore I fear that its standing as an enthusiasts car will diminish slightly.
This should be no surprise to anyone who comes from BMW enthusiasm to the MINI community. They did it with the remodel from the e30 3 series to the e36, and quality also dropped dramatically. Step into an e30, then e36, then e46 3 series and it's like stepping into a sports car, a sports sedan, and a family sedan.
Point is that this is BMWs M.O. - it is not to say that the new MINI won't be a great car, I'm sure it will, but I'm also sure it will attract a moderately different audience.
This should be no surprise to anyone who comes from BMW enthusiasm to the MINI community. They did it with the remodel from the e30 3 series to the e36, and quality also dropped dramatically. Step into an e30, then e36, then e46 3 series and it's like stepping into a sports car, a sports sedan, and a family sedan.
Point is that this is BMWs M.O. - it is not to say that the new MINI won't be a great car, I'm sure it will, but I'm also sure it will attract a moderately different audience.
mb
I agree, ultimately you have to look at things from BMW's standpoint as a business. They know that MINI is popular so they want to make it the biggest cashcow they can. If that means cutting corners to make the car more appealing to a larger audience and making it more profitable at the same time they are going to do it. Its the nature of business. The optimistic side of the equation though is that BMW will never let the MINI brand go in the toilet because the future potential of the brand is too great to ruin it by releasing a crappy product. The car will always retain some of its enthusiast qualities because it is one of the fundamental components of the MINI brand, but overall BMW's interest is to appeal to the largest number of buyers as possible even if it means toning down some of those qualities in order to increase sales. Doing so may or may not result in a better product and if it does, a better product for whom? The enthusiast or the average consumer. I'm not saying it can't be better for both, but IMO it rarely is...
__________________
2010 JCW Clubman, 1995 BMW 530i, 1978 BMW 530i
Previous cars: 2006 MINI Cooper, 04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 GT
So it's a stunning 2.4 inches bigger... and feels softer... but everyone who's seen/driven it so far has pretty much universally described it as a faster, better handling car?
I haven't read that it handles better in any publication yet. Faster yes but better handling....I think the jury's still out on that aspect
__________________
Tact is for people who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic...
Good point. I'm not sure any reviewers has said "better" either. They have said "more composed", "more solid", and "more assuring". Sounds good maybe, but "better" has been withheld and perhaps rightly and purposefully so. Honestly, I believe some die-hard enthusiasts will get into R56 and some will continue to favor R53. R56 is so different in so many ways (some subtle, some not)...it's almost an apples to oranges thing. Apparently, both feeland drive like true MINIs...to say one is better than another may wind up being a bit of a slippery slope.
As for BMWs MO in all this...I think you're right. In the end it seems, again, that boadening the marque's appeal may be perceived as a good thing by some and a bad thing by others (with a good mix in the middle). So far though...for the present...I believe every indication based on enthusiast (not just journalist) reports and test drives is that BMW has done quite well in R56.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that neither you or working4an07 are owners of the current generation. If that is the case, it would make perfect sense that you would want to write off any criticism of the 07 because that is the car you want and you would like to believe you are getting the best possible car for your money.
Okay, to correct you, my Fiance owned a 2005 Electric blue MCS, sport package, conveinence package, bonnet stripes, white roof, white mirrors, white rims. Great car. Loved it, but we had to sell it a little while ago. I drove it more than she did, so I was very familiar with the car. We are VERY anxious for the new Mini. I'm sure we'll love it just as much as Thor (Yes, we named our Mini). I don't think we'll notice any drastic differences though (except maybe in the improved gas mileage!). Minor details maybe, but that happens with every redesign. The Mini looks like it has still greatly retained the character that made it so popular.
I don't hate the R53, in fact I think it's THE best car made from 2002-2006 under $30K, hell under $40K. But Mini's are Mini's.
BTW, my Fiance and I are both in Design professions, and went to one of the best Design Schools in the nation. We understand details.
Okay, to correct you, my Fiance owned a 2005 Electric blue MCS, sport package, conveinence package, bonnet stripes, white roof, white mirrors, white rims. Great car. Loved it, but we had to sell it a little while ago. I drove it more than she did, so I was very familiar with the car. We are VERY anxious for the new Mini. I'm sure we'll love it just as much as Thor (Yes, we named our Mini). I don't think we'll notice any drastic differences though (except maybe in the improved gas mileage!). Minor details maybe, but that happens with every redesign. The Mini looks like it has still greatly retained the character that made it so popular.
I don't hate the R53, in fact I think it's THE best car made from 2002-2006 under $30K, hell under $40K. But Mini's are Mini's.
BTW, my Fiance and I are both in Design professions, and went to one of the best Design Schools in the nation. We understand details.
Good, I'm glad I didn't totally assume I understand where you are coming from, but again, I'm just saying that there may be some possible criticisms of the R56.
__________________
2010 JCW Clubman, 1995 BMW 530i, 1978 BMW 530i
Previous cars: 2006 MINI Cooper, 04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 GT
That being said, I don't think its fair for you to automatically discount people's concerns about some of the changes. There are certain little characteristics/flaws that some current owners find endearing about their MINIs that won't be in the 07. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that neither you or working4an07 are owners of the current generation. If that is the case, it would make perfect sense that you would want to write off any criticism of the 07 because that is the car you want and you would like to believe you are getting the best possible car for your money. Assuming this might be the case, you could be perceived as being an R53 "hater" just like you criticize those who dare point out any problems they see with the R56. Just because a car is newer, faster, and better handling doesn't necessarily make it better. For example, I would much rather have the last generation of the BMW M5 than the new model even though the new model is "better" in almost every way. So what I'm saying is, that if there are people that decide they don't like things about the R56 for whatever reason, its ok. Not everyone will nor should they be obliged to keep up with the times by preferring the "new and improved" model.
And finally, as for the extra 2.4 inches, no its not a big deal but I think the fear is that the MINI will continue to grow in subsequent generations. Cars tend to do that as they get older (as do people).
Well, first off... I have rarely discounted anyone's opinion of the new car (disagreed, but not discounted off hand). It's just that. An opinion. Even once the car is released, people after driving it will continue to have different opinions and preferences. You know what they say, "opinions are like..." well, you know... and I am one, so...
As far as not owning a current R53 model car... You are right. I don't. I might be, though... should the R56 not meet my expectations when it arrives. One way or another, I will be a MINI owner before this coming spring. I guess I'm just buying at an interesting time when I get to choose between two different, but very cool cars. Decisions, decisions...
The only issue I actually have with what you wrote here (and I have seen elsewhere, too), is what 90% of my post was addressing: "...its standing as an enthusiasts car will diminish...". That's YOUR opinion. To that, I strongly disagree(d). I could re-hash the point I was trying to make, but I re-read my own post and really don't think it's nesessary. I was pretty clear the first time.
__________________ Founding member of R56 Anonymous. Now repeat after me: "Hello. My name is ____. I'm a driving enthusiast... and I still like the R56!"
I fear that its standing as an enthusiasts car will diminish slightly.
Fair enough but you didn't include my entire quotation which puts what I said out of context. Notice that I included "I fear" and "slightly." Therefore I never said that the new MINI's standing as an enthusiasts care WILL diminish, I said that I FEAR it will diminish SLIGHTLY. That may seem like nit-picking at words but IMO it completely changes the meaning of my phrase from one of questioning/postulating to an assertion. Its fine if you disagree that the MINI will diminish as an enthusiasts car, but thats not necessarily my opinion nor did I ever state it as such. I'm simply saying that if some of the things written in various automotive publications are true, I'm afraid that it MAY not be quite the enthusiasts car that the R53 is. If you haven't read the CAR magazine article though I highly suggest it so that you can get a better context of what I'm talking about. Yes, it is one person's opinion and No, it is not THE authoritative source on the R56 MINI, but its just something to think about and consider. And I will state again that the article was not in the least bit completely negative...
__________________
2010 JCW Clubman, 1995 BMW 530i, 1978 BMW 530i
Previous cars: 2006 MINI Cooper, 04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 GT
I haven't read that it handles better in any publication yet. Faster yes but better handling....I think the jury's still out on that aspect
OK, I guess I might be reading between the lines of comments like this:
"There's no point in delaying the inevitable. What you really want to know is this: Yes, the new 2007 Mini drives like a real Mini — full of verve when pushed hard over challenging sections of blacktop. And, yes, it achieves the specific aim set out by parent company BMW by improving on its hugely successful predecessor in just about every conceivable area."
and...
" In conclusion the question remains: Will the new Cooper S appeal to enthusiast drivers in the same way the current model does? Most certainly, although they'll likely find themselves craving more, if only because the new car has increased in ability."
My bad.
__________________ Founding member of R56 Anonymous. Now repeat after me: "Hello. My name is ____. I'm a driving enthusiast... and I still like the R56!"
I'm afraid that it MAY not be quite the enthusiasts car that the R53 is. If you haven't read the CAR magazine article though I highly suggest it so that you can get a better context of what I'm talking about.
...and there again, I would disagree. Just look at how many people are turning up on NAM, MINI 2 with <50 posts and are VERY interested in the R56. There are going to be MINI enthusiasts out there for years to come. They're just enthusiastic about a different car. But that's cool.
...at least you didn't lump the new R56 to those plain as vanilla Scion XBs, VW Beatles or Honda Civics.
__________________ Founding member of R56 Anonymous. Now repeat after me: "Hello. My name is ____. I'm a driving enthusiast... and I still like the R56!"
...and there again, I would disagree. Just look at how many people are turning up on NAM, MINI 2 with <50 posts and are VERY interested in the R56. There are going to be MINI enthusiasts out there for years to come. They're just enthusiastic about a different car. But that's cool.
Yep... that'd be me to a tee! I joined both NAM and MINI2 this month and between the two, I have maybe 4 posts. I'm already trying to figure out what body parts of mine I can sell to help me get an R56 sooner! ...just sayin'
Now I'm not saying the new MINI will be anything like the CIVIC. As long as MINI preserves those things that make the car unique I'm sure it will be a great car. Nothing says that a good car can't appeal to everyone. I can't remember the exact wording but the article mentions that MINI's appeal reaches across gender and socio-economic lines. Nevertheless I have little confidence in the tastes of the average (mostly American) consumer when it comes to choosing an automobile.
Visit Arizona... speed for the cameras and reduce our budget deficit!
Yep definitely not much class in those types of cars...
I understand where you are coming from, but again, I'm just saying that there may be some possible criticisms of the R56.
