Hoping someone can give me a quick answer. Fought the bear and changed the clutch today.

When I hopped in the car hoping to take a test drive, the clutch pedal was on the floor.

I could slip my shoe behind it and it quickly pops back to its proper position, but when I press it again, it pulls down to the floor. I don't mean a lazy woosh, I mean it pops back down to the floor. I can repeat the process with my shoe behind it to pop it back to its proper position.

I did not disconnect the clutch cylinder, I tied it away from the transmission when pulling it, and I zip tied over the cylinder itself so it wouldn't push out or anything. It is probably worth mentioning that it's likely the clutch pedal was depressed by my arm while it was disconnected from the transmission when I unbolted the the steering pinch bolt.

Thoughts? Do I need to replace the slave cylinder? What a bummer after a 13 hour marathon clutch change!!!

Thanks, Adam.

 

Can you see that the slave cylinder is moving and that the fork is moving with it?

Is there any fluid possibly it's leaking into the boot?

 

What I would check:

1. Make sure you aren't leaking clutch fluid somewhere on the line or into the boot. Did someone press the clutch while the slave was off and push out the rod? (not even sure these slaves are made like that)
2. If the fluid isn't leaking try to see if the the slave is moving when you press the clutch.
3. if it is take of the slave and see if it is too easy to move the clutch rod/fork
4. If the fork moves too easy this sucks but something is together wrong
5. could be the fork and rod or the fork isnt on the bearing right or the pressure plate didn't get torque correctly (it's hung up on a dowl)

These are general comments from experience working on cars I have never put a clutch in a mini.

 

With the clutch on the floor, I am unable to put it in gear, so I would say it's unlikely the slave is actually moving. I already had the wheels on and the car back on the ground when I noticed this, so I'll investigate for actual movement and fluid leakage tomorrow.

If I ruined it, do I need to buy both the clutch slave and the clutch master?

 

I've had similar problems on cable-clutch cars when I didn't get the throwout arm/bearing/cable together correctly.

 

If you can't diagnose which of the two it is then yes. I'd say it's more likely to be the slave but look close at both of them for signs of leakage. It's a pretty simple hydraulic system so there isn't much to go wrong outside of seals leaking and you should be able to see those leaks.

 

I'm going to jack up the car and stick my head under it to do some more troubleshooting in a couple of hours.

One quick question... If I take a pry bar and push on the clutch fork, should I be able to move it? I guess my question is, how much resistance should it offer? It's hard to image that little plastic slave cylinder could push that hard to move the fork. Basically I just want to push the fork in and ensure it moves/returns to its resting spot (ie: I want to confirm I don't have to pull everything apart again ).

Thanks for all of the advice so far! Hopefully I'll have some more information around mid day.

 

First things first: check for leaking hydraulic fluid, especially around the slave. I think if you got the clutch disc in backwards or something like that, It would rupture the seals on the slave the first time you pushed the clutch in.

 

Agreed, except I'm 80% sure this occured while the slave was disconnected from the transmission while disconnecting the steering pinch bolt.

I figured while I was under the car looking at the slave cylinder, I would try to press in the fork to ensure proper movement.

 

I realize that in my original post I was not very clear about what I did with the slave cylinder. I used plastic zip-ties around the cylinder running from front to back covering the piston itself out of fear that it may fully extend and come out (is this even possible?). Anyhow, unless that piston is super strong, my guess is the zip ties prevented it from extending when the clutch was mistakenly depressed.

Enough conjecture, time to hop under the car and see what's going on!

 

I wonder if it's something simple. Whenever I manually bleed hydraulic clutch systems (I think this is true on ever car i've owned with a hydraulic clutch) The pedal will be to the floor within a few pumps. I used a check valve on a bleeder hose so can pump with abandon. After closing the valve, the pedal is always on the floor, but a few pumps brings it back. You've probably lost pressure in the system because the piston of the slave extended even a tiny bit. So, try pumping the pedal a few times. That may be your only issue and everything is fine. Here's to hoping.

 

OK, so here's what I found...

I removed the slave cylinder. It seems to be working fine. When the clutch pedal is up, I can compress the piston. When the pedal is down, the piston is out firmly about an inch.

Now on to my concern. The clutch fork does not look like it's seated all the way (see attached photo). I feel certain that I installed the clutch disc with the "Toward Gearbox" side actually toward the gearbox and the fork and bearing back in the same way they came out. I torqued down the pressure plate and everything seemed fine...

Thoughts? I really, really, really do not want to have to pull everything apart again. I sure wish I had checked the clutch pedal movement when I first hung the transmission

 

If you replaced the TOB then presumably you disconnected the clutch arm from the little "post" that it clips onto? Did you reseat the clutch arm on the post? There is a little spring that holds the clutch arm in place on the post. Even if you didn't get it completely clipped on it seems like the first time you press the clutch pedal you it would seat the arm on the post. The clutch arm can crack and is apparently not entirely uncommon. If you reach in can you press and wiggle around the end of the clutch arm? I don't think it should move much as it should be located by the TOB around the trans input shaft on the far end and the post in the middle.

 

I don't remember any type of spring on the clutch arm Is it built into the arm?I did seat the post in the arm when I put the new bearing on the arm and reinstalled the arm.

I'm trying to reason out how the assembly all works. When it's all installed, the bearing should be pressed against the pressure plate springs to the front, and the clutch fork to the rear, so it would have to be fully seated or one of two things would happen: the transmission would not seat properly or the pressure plate springs would always be depressed (acting like the clutch is always depressed, which it is definitely not - I can run through the gears with the car off, but not with it running).

There's definitely no movement by hand in the clutch fork. I even put a breaker bar end on the dimple and popped it fairly lightly with a hammer a couple of times wondering if anything would move... I didn't notice any change.

The slave cylinder definitely seems to only extend an inch or so when depressed... In fact it only extends (when removed) about the depth of the dimple of the clutch fork.

 

Sorry maybe "spring" isn't the right word. It's a little wire clip that holds the clutch arm to the pivot pin. You can see it in the ECS Tuning photos
http://www.ecstuning.com/Mini-2008-C...lutch/ES42453/

You have it right how the assembly sits inside the trans housing. I was thinking if the end wasn't seated on the pivot pin and the arm was slightly "rotated" then there wouldn't be a pin holding up the other end of the arm and pressing on the arm might do nothing. I'm not 100% sure this is even possible and either way it sounds like that's not what has happened here.

The good news is if you stick a rod in where the clutch slave goes and press on the clutch arm and you get a lot of resistance there is hope that the clutch is assembled and functioning correctly and you're back to a hydraulic issue. Just because you can press the slave piston in when the clutch pedal is pulled up doesn't mean that the seal hasn't gone bad. It may only leak when a bunch of force is placed on it. You need a helper to move the clutch pedal with the slave mostly bolted on so you can see if there is any movement at the slave at all. If the slave seals had failed it seemed like you'd get leaking hydraulic fluid. I guess the master could have failed internally? Have you tried bleeding it?

 

Ah... I see what you mean, thanks for clarifying. The pin was attached to the arm, so that clip must have been present.

I have not tried bleeding the slave cylinder. I am hesitant to do so because it does seem to be working (clutch pedal up - rod can be pressed in nearly all the way, clutch pedal down - rod is forcibly out about an inch).

So do you (or anyone else) know how far out the rod should come in a normally functioning slave cylinder? I think that would put my mind at ease about whether there's an assembly problem in the gearbox or just a slave cylinder failing.

And just to clarify, I saw no fluid leakage at all.

I am still concerned that the clutch fork does not appear to be seated all the way toward the gearbox. I wish I had a photo of a known working transmission just like the photo I took above.

 

In searching around, I found a troubling diagram. This diagram (attached - from Mini) shows the pin toward the engine. I remember when I installed the clutch fork I put the pin the other way, and it nestled nicely into a circular place that looked like it was made for the pin. Another diagram from Mini shows it the way I did it.

Did I install it bass ackwards???

 

That 2nd parts diagram with the more numbers on it is correct. Did you remove the pin when you removed the release arm? I'm pretty sure the pin is threaded into the transmission housing. It sounds unlikely that you installed the clutch arm incorrectly. Here is a kind of crappy photo that I found showing the release arm installed.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-feedback.html

I really wish I would have taken more pictures of stuff when I had mine or a friend's out. They would come in handy.

I still think you need to verify that the clutch slave can produce enough pressure to move the clutch arm. With the slave fully extended you should have to press and compress the slave to get it to bolt up to the trans. Is this the case? I've not messed with the slave on my car other than just moving it out of the way to remove the trans. Can you remove the rubber accordian-type boot so you can make sure fluid hasn't built up in the boot?

 

Phew... I was worried for a minute! I did not remove the pin, it was attached to the clutch fork.

So are you saying that with the clutch pedal released the slave cylinder should require a touch of force to get it to bolt in? That's definitely not the case with mine.

I'm about to hop on a conference call for work, but once it's done, I'll go out to the garage and peel the boot back to check for fluid. I'll also photograph what the slave cylinder rod look like with the clutch pedal up and with it down.

Thanks for sticking with me, v10 :-)

 

If you reinstalled the spring clip to the clutch release arm and clipped it onto the ball screw the next few things I would question would be if you clipped the throw out bearing firmly into the release arm, (it does take a bit of force to fully clip in).

It is possible with these cars to have the slave bolted in properly, but the piston not be seated on the release arm, causing no pedal pressure and obviously no disengagement.

With the slave removed from the trans, how much movement can you feel in the release arm by hand? It should be under an inch, if you are able to go much more than that you have mechanical issues to attend to.

Ditto on the hydraulic leak Helix mentioned as well, haven't seen many G2 slaves fail but everything has a lifespan long or short.

Nick
Detroit Tuned

 

OK, here's where I am now.

First photo - Clutch pedal up. Rod can be pushed into slave cylinder and comes right back out to that position.

Second photo - Clutch pedal down. Rod is firmly in that position and cannot be pushed in at all.

Third photo - Clutch pedal down. Where it sits when inserted into the gearbox.

I pulled back the boot on the slave cylinder and it is bone dry.

Another oddity. I bolted down the slave cylinder with the clutch pedal down and the car still in the air. I started it and pushed the clutch pedal the further 1/4" it had to go and tried putting it in gear, and it went right into gear. I let my foot off the clutch and at the same time remembered the jack, so I immediately shut the car down (thankfully it didn't move). Unfortunately I didn't poke my head out to see if the wheel was spinning or anything. When I put the car back on the ground and restarted it, I didn't have the same luck.

I put the car in first gear, started it and gave it some gas and it immediately took off fine out of the garage. I put it in reverse and did the same thing and got it back in the garage. I took all of that as a good sign.

 

I remember taking the time to clip the bearing in well, and I never removed the spring clip or the ball screw (which stayed attached to the clutch fork).

With the domed portion of the clutch fork being the sole point for the slave cylinder to touch, it seems like it would be very difficult to put the rod in incorrectly.

I can't feel any play in the clutch fork by hand when pushing on it with my finger.

@ nkfry - Work tansferred me for a year up to MI, and I actually lived in Roseville right by 11 and Groesbeck. Small world!

 

So, update to the update...

Since I decided the slave cylinder rod wasn't pushing the clutch fork far enough, I decided to go for broke. I was either going to bend the clutch fork (unlikely), blow out the slave cylinder (likely), both, or neither.

I took a 9/16th 3/8" drive socket, which is the right size to slip of the tip of the slave cylinder rod but not past the ridge behind it, and I cut about 40% off of it. I then put it on the end of the slave cylinder rod and reinstalled the slave cylinder. I pressed the pedal down slowly to the floor, and to my amazement, there was some resistance and it came back up! I started the car and it went into gear fine, and I took off like a filthily dressed fellow proud of his Mini! I went down my road and back (about 3/4 of a mile total) having made it to 4th gear with no issue. When I got back, there was the distinct odor of eau de burnt clutch, but I figured it was left over from when the clutch burnt up. The second time I went the smell was FAR less.

I've only owned the car for maybe 1500 miles. It clearly had a clutch problem from the day I bought it and I was either too dumb or too excited to notice it until 500 miles or so into ownership. Oh well, live and learn.

So the million dollar question... What happened? I have no idea... I have only a couple of thoughts:

1. The throwout bearing is slightly shorter ( I did not hold them up to compare )
2. The clutch fork pin came unseated when I wriggled the gearbox into place.

Whatever the reason, I hope I get 100k miles from this clutch because I really do not want to EVER do that job again (although I still wouldn't pay Mini $3500 to do it for me!).

Thanks for everyone's input. If my clutch fries in a thousand miles, I'll be sure to resurrect this thread!