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I've pretty miuch made up my mind on the factory JCW but what I had really wanted was someone that, possibly had done a JCW tune on maybe, a 2007 model, then got themselves into a factory JCW. My wonderful dealer, while they won't let me drive a JCW, won't even try and find a JCW tune car to at least get a ride in.
I know that there are differences that the factory puts into their JCW, bigger turbo, that's worth about $2K there, the transmission upgrade and clutch, probably another $1K and I haven't even mentioned the Brembo brakes, another $2K. You add up just those parts, not even getting into labor, and the $2 - $4K difference in the price between the factory and the tuned JCW, well the factory JCW becomes a bargain, real quickly. But of course, one will never convince the nay sayers on this list that don't even know what some extra horsepower can do in everyday driving. As I've said many times in my lifetime, horsepower has gotten me out of more problems that it has EVER gotten me into.
And, the 208, 215, 220 whatever the claim is for power with the JCW, it's still like a race car. Now, if they got the JCW up into the 350-400 hp, then THAT would be a bit much. I remember driving a Ford Thunderbolt back in the mid 60's, ONCE. That was hairy even in sunny weather. Let out on the clutch, and there was no way to not spin the tires.
My 69 Dodge 500, it actually dynoed at 418hp, it was a 440 not the hemi. I drove that as regular transportation for two winters. Then I got a company furnished car, and it sat. Sold, or I should say, gave it away in 72 when muscle cars were dropping in value like a waterfall. That's one car that I wish that I'd have kept, even though my 67 GTX, which was also a 440, and the motor felt like it had more power, was faster on the street, but had poor body fit quality. That was my most fun car. The Deuce, 32 Ford coupe that I built in the mid 80's, that was fun too, but never quite felt just right. No, I didn't drive it in the winter, but did in rain and all other kinds of weather.
That's what gets me about some of these guys that think that the Mini JCW is too much power. True, I haven't even driven one yet, but drive anything sensibly, and there should be no problem, and then you get the insurance of better brakes, stronger transmission and clutch, as well as power on the highway when you might need it. My Miata, that I have now, is gutless at 70 mph when I need to pass someone.
My take on this is, it depends on what kind of driving you intend to do. My MCS goes like a scalded cat, and is quite capable of getting me in really hot water, costing me my license, and scaring me silly. I'm of the opinion that the extra grunt available in the JCW would really be rather pointless - in my case, anyway.
Yeah, the JCW generates 208bhp. But at what RPM? At full flail, no doubt... and how often will you be pushing the car to that extent, save at a track day or some such? Just my opinion here, but the kind of driving you're most likely to encounter on public roads is well within the capabilities of an MCS; meaning that a JCW doing the everyday slog won't feel that much different than an MCS, but at a huge price premium. I've long felt that a car with lower performance limits can actually be more fun for everyday driving, since you don't have to push it way past legality to take advantage of all that potential. My MG Midget is a blast at legal speeds, for example. If I had a Porsche, on the other hand, I'd be paying huge money for performance that I could never really use.
Again, this is all just my opinion. As others have suggested, simply do a comparison test and go with the one that feels right for you.
Would I purchase a JCW if I were able? Well, yes. Naturally.
Cheers,
Spridget
__________________
Moocher the MINI | BRG and white R56 | White Sport Stripes | Premium and Cold Weather packages, black/charcoal innards | My other car is an MG | My favorite actress is Minnie Driver | Fear the Buick.
You ask at what RPM does the JCW develop the 208hp? Well, it's at 6,000, where the MCW is 172+ at 5600, I believe. The MCW engine is a very nice motor, and with the new Valvetronic, it is even better, but the JCW 208 hp motor, well it isn't the horsepower that makes it nice to drive, it is the torque. As someone once said, torque wins races, while horsepower sells cars. Also, torque makes the driving experience more enjoyable, at least for me that is, in driving. One of the things that bugs me about my current ride, it is an 07 Miata, is that lack of torque. One has to down shift to make passing power, and I'd rather just push down on the gas, just enough to get around them.
Power, as you eluded to can get you into trouble, but when you use it properly, it definately makes driving easier. I use to say, back in my musclecar days, that power got me out of much more trouble that it ever got me into. It's called using your head. And as far as the power in either, the MiniS or the JCW, let's face it, 208 or 172+ just isn't all that much power. Now, if you had 300 hp, ith 320 ft. lbs of torque with the 2700 lbs, then we'd be having a different conversation. Case in point: 2011 Mustang, weighing in at 3600 lbs with 412+ horsepowr and 395 ft. lbs of torque. Now that is an interesting power to weight ratio. I'm still taking the Mini.
Yeah, the JCW generates 208bhp. But at what RPM? At full flail, no doubt... and how often will you be pushing the car to that extent, save at a track day or some such? Just my opinion here, but the kind of driving you're most likely to encounter on public roads is well within the capabilities of an MCS; meaning that a JCW doing the everyday slog won't feel that much different than an MCS, but at a huge price premium. I've long felt that a car with lower performance limits can actually be more fun for everyday driving, since you don't have to push it way past legality to take advantage of all that potential. My MG Midget is a blast at legal speeds, for example. If I had a Porsche, on the other hand, I'd be paying huge money for performance that I could never really use.
Again, this is all just my opinion. As others have suggested, simply do a comparison test and go with the one that feels right for you.
Would I purchase a JCW if I were able? Well, yes. Naturally.
I just bought a 2008 MCS as my DD. I've also owned four vettes, a 944, several BMWs, and a few Triumphs. I also once rode in a friends OLD mini, but it was fully tweaked with a monster weber and all sorts of mods. Fun.
My non-DD is a Ford SVT Lightning pickup. It's been modded and that's my toy... full throttle shifts in the modded automatic produce loud chirps and the Eaton blower screams... 400+ RWHP/525RWTQ. Loud, a lot of fun and sometimes practical, a pig on gas but awesome for cruise nights and car shows which I do a fair share of. But I can also haul a fridge or sofa LOL.
Point is, I like performance cars, even for a DD. The MCS is very impressive and yes, its very easy to take it up to speeds that might mean impounding! The JCW is I'm sure... a nice driver, but I agree with many posters that the price differential really has to be justified. There are also plenty of people who will tell you that there are better performing cars for what you'd spend on a JCW or maybe even less. But the mini is a little special and maybe the OP should drive a base mini, then drive a MCS... then a JCW and maybe he'd warm up to the MCS.
I use my '10MCS as a daily driver. It replaced an Audi A6 Avant.
My other car, (yea,I've got several) is a stupid fast supercharged BMW M3 (I'm the original owner of that too)... So I didn't need another max performance car. If I want to go MORON fast, I'll ride the Aprilia...
If I want to really feel good about myself, I go drive the wife's Mazda 3... I really can't see what the auto rags like in that thing...
Anyway, I bought the MCS with the options I wanted. If I had bought the JCW it would have had the same options, and cost $6K more. I like blue tooth, I like the smartphone prep, I actually like the rain sensing wipers, I couldn't live without the Xenon lights. The only thing I don't like is the sunroof.
But get real. 20 something more Hp, and torque is really minor. A JCW car could lose to a JCW kit car if the factory car is on the runflats, and the kit car has real tires and suspension...
So the simple answer is, GO DRIVE THEM BOTH. If you want it, and can afford it, buy it. But! If you want it, can afford it, and don't get it, you will probably regret it....
__________________
No matter where you go, there you are...
The factory JCW is about 12 pounds per horsepower. It is super quick and a lot of just plain fun. My lowest gas milage was 26mpg and my normal average has been 32mpg. Depending on how I drove for eack tank.I have gotten better driving at a snails pace. I do not think it is any better then a "Just-A-Mini or a Mini Cooper-S" It is just a totaly different car as far as drive feeling goes. I know I sure like mine.
__________________ 2009 JCW
RONNIE948
Daytona Beach, Florida
The MCS is a great car, the JCW is a great car, either one is a great DD you can have some fun with at the weekend.
Here's why I chose the JCW rather than the S:
1. Upgraded internals - Always nice to have a more solid lump, especially the clutch apaprently...
2. It sounds great - tunnels, parking garages, my garage, it sounds AMAZING!!!
3. More is always better - more power. Its a good thing. I can put my foot down at 60 in 6th gear and be at 80 in the blink of an eye. Great for nipping into fast moving traffic when that beater minivan can't maintain speed up a hill
4. It sounds great - Repeat from above.
5. I got the JCW for the price of less than an MCS because it was a 2009 bought new shortly before the 2011 model cars arrived... Which made it kind of a no-brainer.
6. It sounds.... You get the picture.
Also - the extra HP/TQ does make a difference. Numbers wise it's not huge but in a car as light as the Cooper that extra power is noticable. On the down side there is a HEAVY price premium for the extra power.
As for not being able to use the extra power - see the example with the minivan above. There is a time and a place to use that extra grunt and it is not to do 100+ down city streets at night. Take it to a track/autocross and have fun there or enjoy the ability to cruise easily up hills and pass people without a problem. Use it to merge onto the highway. Many uses, none of which will send you to jail.
As for whoever said something about the Mazda 3 above - You have to compare it to the other cars in it's class, not to something like a mini. Drive a Cobalt/Elantra/Caliber/Forte/Focus/Spectra and you'll see why it is rated so highly. It only costs about 2/3rds the price of an equally equipped cooper. I owned a Mazda 3 before the MINI so I am a little biased but that little guy took some punishment, had a TON of space in the back and was still a hoot to drive whenever the urge took me.
Look at the other cars you own. Compared to an A6, MCS, M3 it IS cheap, numb and lacking in seat adjustment!! Also - I had the 2.3 in a stick, not the 2.0 and the hatchback not the sedan.
The auto trans on the 3 is awful although I think most autos are horrible and the sedan isn't as well balanced as the hatch. The 2.0 also lacks power. I'd take it over any other car of that price and size though. The GTI is the only other car that would give it competition. Believe me, rent a caliber for the weekend, you'll see how much worse it can get!!
Looks like we opened up some interest here. That's why I started this thread last year. As noted at that time, I wan'ted to know the differences, not just the price, we all know that the JCW is over priced, but the driving experience.
I've driven a MCS, it drives nice, lacks a bit of torque in the lower rpms, but it drove nice, which I expected. The go car feel. But the differences that I find between the MCS and the JCW, other than price is that torque that is missing. I'm talking stock right now. Now if you want to compare modified, that's a differenct story, but if you do the sam modds to the JCW that you do to the MCS, well you still get more bang out of the JCW.
Let's talk comparisons in stock, just a little. First the engine, which we all know about, then add the Brembo Brakes, then the transmission/clutch upgrades, (the 2011 has improved this it is said) then the exhaust has that great, but old burble sound, and then the wheels. Add the additions of just these items, not getting into the JCW decorations, and the dollars difference drops appreciably from that $6,000 that everyone talks about. Add the Brembo Brakes to a MCW.....$2,000 plus install, wheels $2,000+ thru Mini, build another 26hp into the MCS (2011 figures) $1500 to $2500 depending on whom and what you add. Of course you could probably tune it to this figure, but then tune the JCW and see where you are.
This isn't meant to be a real argument, but I am looking for a nice, responsive daily driver, that I can have so fun with. That's what all Minis are about. The JCW has the added cost, on the base unit, but it also has the brakes, exhaust sound and added torque along with the clutch and transmission stengthening. As my mother use to say, "To each therir own" Thanks for the input, for me it will be a JCW, but that's just me.
Sorry here for all the posts, but I just figured out a MiniS on MINIUSA with comparable options. The MiniS, with the JCW tune package, Brembo Brake package (without the $1500-$2000 installation, I didn't add in) a JCW Wheel upgrade, then I added the cloth and leather interior, convenience and cold packages, Sport package. All the exact same options that I would put on my JCW build.
Guess what? Price, the big question that everyone talks about, you know, that $6,000-$7,000 price difference, right? Well folks, unless I messed up here somewhere the Mini S with these options came to $35,098. and the JCW came to $33,500. Such a deal.
Its a tough decision. I test drove both the Mini S and the JCW this past summer and they both have their pros and cons.
I can see why people say spring for the JCW because it is a very different car from the S. It feels faster, handles better, and is overall a better car. I loved the S, but I really really loved the JCW. However, If I was buying new, there is no way I would pay 35k for a JCW. Why? because for 35k the JCW just isn't enough "car" for me. It might feel quick, but it really doesn't have that much torque and its not actually that fast the 0-60 range from the high 5s to low 6s. I know the JCW is more fun, but to me the Mini S is already a lot of fun and the 6-7k dollar difference doesn't do enough for me. Sure if you part it out, the JCW isn't a bad deal with the brakes, suspension, tune, etc but if I had 35k to spend on a performance car there are so many better alternatives.
If I was looking to get into a mini just because its a really fun car to drive, then a Mini S would be more than enough for me to satisfy that desire. The JCW is a little too expensive for the performance that it offers.
With all of that being said, If I was in the market, and found a lightly used, low mileage JCW for about 25k or about what a new mini s costs, then that would be my first choice. If I was buying new, then its a Mini S hands down.
With all of that being said, If I was in the market, and found a lightly used, low mileage JCW for about 25k or about what a new mini s costs, then that would be my first choice. If I was buying new, then its a Mini S hands down.
The odds are not good. In 2009, MINI USA sold 45,225 cars. JCWs accounted for 498 of them, or slightly over 1%...
__________________ 2009 John Cooper Works Clubman: Pure Silver over Horizon Blue, Pure Silver C-Pillars, Mirrors, Hood Stripes, Cold Weather, Premium, Rear Spoiler, Front & Rear Fog Lamps, Bluetooth/USB/iPod
nm Engineering: Short Shift Adapter and Assembly Cover (06/11)
MiniDoMore: Hitch, Drawbar, Cargo Platform and Box (06/11)
If you are gonna pay the $$$ for a car, get the one you want, otherwise, you will just dump the $$$ (probably more) into the one you got trying to make it the one you wanted in the first place.
With all of that being said, If I was in the market, and found a lightly used, low mileage JCW for about 25k or about what a new mini s costs, then that would be my first choice. If I was buying new, then its a Mini S hands down.
It's possible...
The local MINI dealer has an '09 JCW w/ ~25k miles for $26.9k. Surely they'll come off that price some, too.
__________________ 2009 MINI Cooper : OB/W, R94s (W), Sport Package
Acording to MC2 & other sources I have read the count of JCW's being 452. Whare did you get the 498 number?
All of the Mini's are good. I do not think any one is really better then another. """BUT"" They are all different.
Johngo is 100% correct.
452 is 1%. I thought that came from a sales associate. Without looking up the thread, which I believe you posted in, someone got 2009 export data from a British agency for USA, Canada and Mexico. If I'm not mistaken, the USA total was 498. I think Canada was 67 and Mexico was 33, so North America was almost 600 JCWs.
__________________ 2009 John Cooper Works Clubman: Pure Silver over Horizon Blue, Pure Silver C-Pillars, Mirrors, Hood Stripes, Cold Weather, Premium, Rear Spoiler, Front & Rear Fog Lamps, Bluetooth/USB/iPod
nm Engineering: Short Shift Adapter and Assembly Cover (06/11)
MiniDoMore: Hitch, Drawbar, Cargo Platform and Box (06/11)
The local MINI dealer has an '09 JCW w/ ~25k miles for $26.9k. Surely they'll come off that price some, too.
True, but the odds are heavily stacked against it...
__________________ 2009 John Cooper Works Clubman: Pure Silver over Horizon Blue, Pure Silver C-Pillars, Mirrors, Hood Stripes, Cold Weather, Premium, Rear Spoiler, Front & Rear Fog Lamps, Bluetooth/USB/iPod
nm Engineering: Short Shift Adapter and Assembly Cover (06/11)
MiniDoMore: Hitch, Drawbar, Cargo Platform and Box (06/11)
I was also undecided between the S and the JCW. I checked out the changes for the 2011 models and just ordered a 2010 JCW DS/DS with sport suspension, value package, HK, sirrus, white turns signals, rear fogs, and leatherette......should be here in early August...my 98 BMW 323is is getting up in miles with 310,000 on the odometer...been a great car...still has the original clutch and burns no oil! looking forward to the JCW.....Hemisedan, I have old school cars too. I have a 1969 Camaro SS 396/375 and a 1970 Corvette 350/350....I let you know how I like the JCW...never driven one YET. .
Reliability would be reduced to a few hundred (maybe a thousand) miles between rebuilds.
jcw's really are a gang!
2009 JCW
