Lost the back end today

[orangecrush]

Originally Posted by OXYBLUECOOP

This morning in Charlotte I took a sharp right from Rea Road onto a straight downhill ramp to I485 and lost grip in the rear. Ended up sliding down the ramp sideways about 60ft in a cloud of smoke. I think I'll adjust the rear bar down a notch tomorrow as opposed to taking that turn again slower next time.

That's funny. Today about 3 miles east of your exit, I took the Independence exit a little too hot. I take that exit ramp every morning and today was FANTASTIC... what a way to start the day.

You can juuuuust feel the rear end starting to slide.

WOOHOO.... I'm awake.


Mark

[malteseracer]

Originally Posted by juicycoop

Accidents happen to everyone. Glad your Mini isn't damaged too bad and insurance is covering it.

However, I wouldn't blame it on the rear sway bar being too stiff . Maybe I'm old and bitter, but...

speeding + 18 year old driver + sporty car= trouble

I didn't say it was entirely the sway bar, but once that back end got around there was no stopping it. Car was too close to the inside to power through it.

[Michael Czeiszperger]

Originally Posted by juicycoop

Accidents happen to everyone. Glad your Mini isn't damaged too bad and insurance is covering it.

However, I wouldn't blame it on the rear sway bar being too stiff . Maybe I'm old and bitter, but...

speeding + 18 year old driver + sporty car= trouble

No kidding! Unless the driver in this car has autocrossed or has experience on a skid pad under different surface conditions there's no way guess how a particular car will react, especially after its been modified. Autocrossing (or any other SCCA event) is a cheap and fun way to learn how your car handles, and gives enough excitement you don't need to race around the streets so fast you lose control.

[markusw]

Originally Posted by juicycoop

18 year old driver = trouble

I fixed it for you.

[Robin Casady]

Originally Posted by juicycoop

Accidents happen to everyone. Glad your Mini isn't damaged too bad and insurance is covering it.

However, I wouldn't blame it on the rear sway bar being too stiff . Maybe I'm old and bitter, but...

speeding + 18 year old driver + sporty car= trouble

You are old and bitter.

Yes, driver error was involved. Yes, accidents happen, but not without a cause and effect relationship. IMO, the stiffer anti-sway bar was a contributing factor, and knowing that can be helpful. One can change the setting on the bar, be aware of the handling characteristic, be more causious cautious driving, take steps to lean more about handling an out of control car.

Just blaming it on youth doesn't really help anyone. Oh, and I'm nowhere near 18. More like old and foolish.

[Ken G.]

Also, Malteseracer had the worst possible conditions. Depending on how sharply the peak of the hill was, even 30 or 40 mph would be enough to get the car light on it's wheels. Add to the scenario the modified anti-roll and the water/pothole, and you have conditions where it would be hard, if not impossible, to stay within the limits of adhesion for the rears. I think he reacted after the loss of control exactly as he should have, and minimized the damage.

It's too bad that so few driving schools have skid pads to teach people how to deal with this (not that I think there was much anyone could do to recover). If you want to see a great driver's school, watch for the episode of TOP GEAR where they interview Mika Hakkinen. They show a bit of the two weeks of mandatory driver's training that everyone in Finland has to complete before getting a license.

Live and learn. Glad you're OK.

[Crashton]

malteseracer - I'm glad you & others that use your road are OK. Cars can be fixed easily.

It is quite possible that 22mm rear bar contributed to the event, as did road conditions, IMO it is a large bar for street use & it along with road conditions conspired to catch you out. It is also quite possible that you were carrying too much speed for the road/road conditions & left no room for error. Either way learn from this. You were very lucky this time.

My suggestion to you is get to a drivers school & learn how to handle your car in a safe environment. A two day school is going to cost less than the damage you did to your car & once done you will be a better & safer driver. If you can't get to a school, go do some auto x, that will also teach you car control. Better yet do both. Watching videos is cool, but only learning your cars & your limits in a safe environment is going to teach you how it feels. Seat time is your friend.

I'm not a fan of DSC, but have to ask this one more thing, was your DSC turned on? If not this DSC hating guy recommends that you do switch it back on.

Good luck.

[slinger688]

Originally Posted by Ken G.

It's too bad that so few driving schools have skid pads to teach people how to deal with this (not that I think there was much anyone could do to recover). If you want to see a great driver's school, watch for the episode of TOP GEAR where they interview Mika Hakkinen. They show a bit of the two weeks of mandatory driver's training that everyone in Finland has to complete before getting a license.

Live and learn. Glad you're OK.

I think drivers education school would help very much. DE is not all about correcting after you get in trouble (in skids, oversteer and understeer) but also about looking ahead to anticipate what will likely happen so you can take proactive action(s) when you still have time to do so. Additionally, the lessons on car dynamics and road camber would also help greatly.

[Crashton]

Originally Posted by slinger688

I think drivers education school would help very much. DE is not all about correcting after you get in trouble (in skids, oversteer and understeer) but also about looking ahead to anticipate what will likely happen so you can take proactive action(s) when you still have time to do so. Additionally, the lessons on car dynamics and road camber would also help greatly.

+1

[rrcaniglia]

Let me go back to the beginning. You were flying over a hill with a curve on it after a rain at night...

[malteseracer]

Originally Posted by Crashton

malteseracer - I'm glad you & others that use your road are OK. Cars can be fixed easily.

It is quite possible that 22mm rear bar contributed to the event, as did road conditions, IMO it is a large bar for street use & it along with road conditions conspired to catch you out. It is also quite possible that you were carrying too much speed for the road/road conditions & left no room for error. Either way learn from this. You were very lucky this time.

My suggestion to you is get to a drivers school & learn how to handle your car in a safe environment. A two day school is going to cost less than the damage you did to your car & once done you will be a better & safer driver. If you can't get to a school, go do some auto x, that will also teach you car control. Better yet do both. Watching videos is cool, but only learning your cars & your limits in a safe environment is going to teach you how it feels. Seat time is your friend.

I'm not a fan of DSC, but have to ask this one more thing, was your DSC turned on? If not this DSC hating guy recommends that you do switch it back on.

Good luck.

No DSC was off. That was another problem which was my fault. I had been messing around in a parking lot with a friend earlier that evening and forgot to turn it back on. Normally I leave DTC on at night and leave both DTC and DSC on in the rain and other limiting conditions. It just happened to be that I'd forgotten and couldn't see the water over the hill.
I would like to do some Autocross and it is on my list of things to do after the winter season.

@Ken G. It really did leave little room for error (too little, obviously) and live and learn is exactly what i'll do, thanks.

@rrcaniglia. I was driving at the bottom of third gear over a decently sharp hill, as I always take that hill that way. It was late at night and water condensed on the road because it was hot and somewhat humid earlier that day. I took it too far to the inside of the turn where the water had not been taken down by other drivers' tires. There is no need to make a post specifically to be rude.

[rrcaniglia]

Well, MR, let me say that you are doing one positive thing here. You're reviewing the whole thing and learning. Many don't. At 18, I'm a little surprised and a little bit more impressed. Good on ya.

And as to rudeness, I don't think of a straight-forward assessment as being rude. It may be mistaken, but not rude. The facts are, corrected by you: night; wet road; hill; curve; too fast because that speed had worked before.

[Robin Casady]

Originally Posted by malteseracer

It just happened to be that I'd forgotten and couldn't see the water over the hill.

That's the thing about cresting a hill, or going around a blind cruve, you don't know what is out of site. Friend of a friend was cresting a hill on a motorcycle (road he drove every day) and couldn't see the garbage truck just beyond the crest. Tried to avoid it, hit an immovable object helmet first, broke his neck.

[Crashton]

I'm more a fan of advanced driver training than electronic nannies, but it may have helped you. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security thinking the nanny can always keep you safe, it can't. Driver training is of much more value, IMHO.

I salute you for taking responsibility for your actions.

[malteseracer]

Crashton I do agree with the electronic nannies thing. As I wrote before I turn DSC off unless it is raining or something and generally prefer it that way. 99/100 times I turn my car a certain way because that is the way I wanted it to go.
I dont need some system braking my left, front wheel because some computer said I was probably doing something. I work against me this time but I could sure see DSC as a system cause a lot of accidents because someone a) Thought the system would do something it doesn't b) As you said, rely on it and not their own abilities to perceive things or c) Doing something during a maneuver (either malfunction or otherwise) that could potentially cause an accident.
You want someone to drive for you, call a cab or take a bus.

On the other hand however....It would have been helpful in my situation (probably)

[slinger688]

MR,

I think the point that you may be missing is that you should already have advanced driver training and be experienced before you turn off the electronic nannies. It is not necessary that DSC causes a lot of accidents but DSC may not save you from an accident due to bad driving.

[rrcaniglia]

Robin,
Sorry about your friend on the bike. I got rid of mine after being hit from behind twice while sitting still.

As to the discussion of DSC, in our friend's case here, I wouldn't think having it off was the proximate cause of the accident.

[malteseracer]

Originally Posted by rrcaniglia

As to the discussion of DSC, in our friend's case here, I wouldn't think having it off was the proximate cause of the accident.

No most definitely not. It could have served to help, but lack of stability control should never be sited as an actual reason. I don't think that was the point he was making.

Sliner688, yes I do agree with you as to not saving you from bad driving, my argument in that regard was more that I don't like my car doing something without my input because some computer thought of what to do, not me.
I do, however, disagree with you about not having advanced training before turning them off. That is like saying that someone should go to racing school before buying a car made before 2000. I find that turning DSC off makes the car much more responsive and has made me much more aware of how the car actually handles. Mind you, I obviously am not 100% knowledgeable about the car's breaking points (as per this articles origin), but at the very least I now have some knowledge of a breaking point that I miscalculated and maybe, even with DSC on, this knowledge can help me avoid something potentially worse that someone else would not know.

I can now move out my endlinks and reset my sway bar to compensate. Who knows what could happen tomorrow? Maybe one day someone will hit me in the back as they brake late for a sharp turn and send me flying in the other direction? If my sway bar was too tight maybe I could lose control that much easier and be killed.

Obviously this is all relative, but barring bad weather, DSC is a crutch at best.

[slinger688]

MR,

DSC is not as intrusive as you think in a R56. You can still get lots of feel from the car and the car still does what you want if you know how to drive it. Learning to drive fast while you have DSC initially is not a bad thing.

I have seen incidents with track novices that come with their 675 hp supercharged vettes (or vipers or some souped up whatevers), turn off their DSC and have tons of issues because they cannot drive. There is so much to learn about driving fast safely that it is a lifetime persuit (at least for me). Take it slow and progress in stages. The Mini is a very forgiving car to drive fast but at the limits or when the driver makes bad mistake(s), like any car, it can be a beast. Having an OK safety net is better than nothing in the case where your skill is still developing and you can make the mistakes more frequently.

On the track, I drive in the advanced group and most of the time I still keep DSC on. If you are really smooth and consistent, you will find that it is not that intrusive. I also drive with it off so I know what it feels like without DSC. Some track friends always say take it off, but when I take them for a ride, they come back saying they never really noticed it.

A few Minis will be going up to Lime Rock Park for our last track day of the year. It would be Oct 31, Sat, between 1-5 pm. Come up, see what is going on and talk with us about driving and cars. We are all track junkies and that is all we talk about.

[rrcaniglia]

Slinger, you may be the best thing that has happened to MR. Hope he joins you. Am sure it will be a fun time.

[RJKimbell]

Originally Posted by Ken G.

It's too bad that so few driving schools have skid pads to teach people how to deal with this (not that I think there was much anyone could do to recover). If you want to see a great driver's school, watch for the episode of TOP GEAR where they interview Mika Hakkinen. They show a bit of the two weeks of mandatory driver's training that everyone in Finland has to complete before getting a license.

Ken do you happen to know what season and week this show was on?? Never mind I found it!!
http://vodpod.com/watch/1890615-top-gear-mika-hakkinen

Thanks

[darmog]

Originally Posted by RJKimbell

Ken do you happen to know what season and week this show was on?? You can watch old episodes of TOP GEAR here...
http://www.casttv.com/shows/top-gear

Thanks

TOp Gear Season 12 episode 3

[malteseracer]

Originally Posted by rrcaniglia

Slinger, you may be the best thing that has happened to MR. Hope he joins you. Am sure it will be a fun time.

I wish I could go and was actually planning on attending, but I have promised my little brothers and a few friends that I'll be around for Halloween and canceled my plans. I was hoping to head down south to visit some friends in Florida and taking the car to a track while I'm now there. I'll be posting on here when that happens and I'll hopefully hook up with some MINIs.

[Robin Casady]

Originally Posted by malteseracer

Crashton I do agree with the electronic nannies thing. As I wrote before I turn DSC off unless it is raining or something and generally prefer it that way. 99/100 times I turn my car a certain way because that is the way I wanted it to go.
I dont need some system braking my left, front wheel because some computer said I was probably doing something. I work against me this time but I could sure see DSC as a system cause a lot of accidents because someone a) Thought the system would do something it doesn't b) As you said, rely on it and not their own abilities to perceive things or c) Doing something during a maneuver (either malfunction or otherwise) that could potentially cause an accident.
You want someone to drive for you, call a cab or take a bus.

On the other hand however....It would have been helpful in my situation (probably)

DSC only comes on when the car is moving in a direction other than the wheels are pointing -- i.e. sliding. It wont interfere with driving unless you are drifting. I think you are over-estimating its level of interference, and over-estimating your abilities.

There was an interesting video posted here in one of the many DSC threads. It showed a skilled driver attempting an accident avoidance maneuver at 70 mph on a frozen lake. The car was not a MINI, but it had a system similar to DSC. He couldn't make it through without the electronic nanny. He could when it was turned on. The point being that even a very skilled driver can benefit from DSC. It can do things that a human driver cannot.

Turning it off for AutoX is fine because all you will hit are cones. Turning it off on the street is sort of like putting narrower tires on your car. Essentially, DSC just extends the limit of where the car can be controlled. Just because you can go beyond that limit doesn't mean you should lower it. I can think of no valid reason for turning DSC off on the street.

[malteseracer]

Should be picking up Jeremy on Friday. I'll be tuning down the sway bar and the endlinks first thing after it gets a wash and wax. Oil will be changed within the week as well.
Overlooking the accident for the last few weeks I have come to some conclusions:
Ultimately it was my fault almost entirely (Obviously, as i have said before)
-I set up the car too stiff
-I didn't give myself time to adjust to the new rear endlinks
-I took the turn too fast
-I mis-navigated and incorrectly corrected the turn

I do not blame a lack of DSC. If I were driving anything else without DSC I should still have been able to properly take the turn, even if that meant taking it a few mph slower. I will definitely be using it more often, but it will spend a good deal of time off as well.

Was it worth not having my car for three weeks to take a turn like that? Most definitely not.
Was it worth having this accident to show that my setup and navigation of the turn was incorrect? Yes. Now I can correct this now, rather than having the same thing happen where someone could possibly be hurt.

I will be spending some time doing AutoX, driving the track (if I can ever get to one), and letting the car loose in some parking lots so I can learn it better. I will also be keeping my foot plated in turns (or at least on the accelerator) because to this day i cannot recall if i was on the brakes or gas. I'd like to say gas but I can't say that with certainty.