R50/53 MCS vs. Miata on track
#26
07-24-2014, 12:09 PM
@Eddie, thanks for the list of recommended mods. I think we are on about the same page. Nitto makes NT-01s in 225/45/15s so a square setup on 15x7.5s would be perfect. It's good to know a BBK would still fit, as that would have been the only reason to go to a 16, and Nitto doesn't make NT-01s in a 16 that would fit. (For those wondering, the NT-01s are far and away the most popular non-slick tire in our club right now, so that's what I'd be leaning towards trying first).
It's good to hear folks not ******* too much on the suspension. The 135i forums are full of folks bagging on the OEM dampers, even the M-Sport ones. Personally, I think they've been fine. If just springs and camber plates would get the job done, that's a major kudos to the OEM dampers and other components. The 135i needs all sorts of M3 bits before you even think about coilovers.
Overall, your thoughts are encouraging, and you're absolutely right, the only way any of this is possible is because the other cars are leaving performance on the table. It's all over the second a Miata tunes his engine to the class limit. I don't see anyone doing that though until someone comes in and beats them because of it.
#27
07-24-2014, 12:32 PM
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Such is the beauty of a private track club. We're in Northern California, which means we have a handful Silicon Valley type members, so there's no shortage of wealthy guys with money to burn. But they don't race Miatas in GT-5. They race 911s and Ferraris in GT-1. Or if they aren't quite that wealthy, they race Corvettes and Caymans and M3s. The money chases horsepower, so GT-5 is for poor people that want wheel to wheel racing without the cost of NASA and SCCA. There's no prize money in winning, just bragging rights, a cheap trophy and your name on the club website. :D It's really all for fun, and yet the club has many skilled and accomplished drivers in it. In fact, if you follow sports car racing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_van_Overbeek is a former member.
As for track surfaces, being blessed with a couple of the best circuits in the country (Laguna Seca and Sonoma) and one up-and-comer (Thunderhill), the surfaces are pretty fantastic.
#28
07-24-2014, 12:36 PM
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If a 15x8 would fit and still be lightweight without being prohibitively expensive, definitely would go that route.
#29
07-24-2014, 09:45 PM
The E-LSD was introduced in 09 with the factory JCW, as part of "DTC".
#30
07-25-2014, 06:23 AM
Take a look at my mods and you'll see a similar set-up to what you're proposing. The car weighs 2750 with me (165lb) and a tank of gas. Dyno'd @200fwhp. That's 13.75 and over your limit, so your goal of 185fwhp is on target (or go heavier). My car has no sunroof and came w/lsd. I run std. brakes w/Hawk DTC60's and cheap, plain rotors. Have never lost my brakes, even at VIR in hot, Summer. It's as reliable as a faithful dog and a hoot to drive. As others have said, tho, you'll suck up some Miatas and then, some will suck you up. Both are momentum cars and need to be driven as such.
#31
07-25-2014, 08:58 AM
i'm with btwyx on going the r56s route - someone mentioned the r53 is lighter - idk if this applied when you start doing weight savings but i believe the r56 is the stronger and lighter chassis (by ab 50 lbs). also, turbos are so much easier for making power. make sure the timing chain is in good shape and i think r56s, tuned + osg + good coilovers + as wide wheels as possible and as grippy rubber as possible should be able to give those miatas a good run for their money, all else equal
#32
07-25-2014, 09:37 AM
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i'm with btwyx on going the r56s route - someone mentioned the r53 is lighter - idk if this applied when you start doing weight savings but i believe the r56 is the stronger and lighter chassis (by ab 50 lbs). also, turbos are so much easier for making power. make sure the timing chain is in good shape and i think r56s, tuned + osg + good coilovers + as wide wheels as possible and as grippy rubber as possible should be able to give those miatas a good run for their money, all else equal
If only my wife had listened and ordered her R56 with the manual instead of the step, I wouldn't have this problem! I'd just have to buy her a "big Mini" as she calls it.
#33
07-25-2014, 11:28 AM
i would honestly stick with the r53 over the miata and over the r56, the r53 is a smaller car, and has more parts available than to a r56, the turbo is nice, but the SC you dont have to wait for the boost coming out of the corner and you wont melt your valve cover gasket or your oil lines. plus there are many more cheaper r53's allowing you to have your budget. and most dealers now list then VIN atleaste in my area, and you could look it up to see if the factory LSD is in. or take it for a real hard test drive haha, refresh either the front tires... or tire
#34
07-25-2014, 11:47 AM
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I'll definitely have to use the VIN lookup if I start shopping for one, because a fairly extensive search on AutoTrader and CarGurus reveals that not a single car is advertised as having an LSD, probably because most people don't know what it is or if it's equipped. We do get all sorts of other useful information like "power windows and locks" and "front and rear wipers" though. Might as well tell me it has seat belts while they are at it...
I did find some "Checkmate" editions, which I know were fitted with the LSD.
I did find some "Checkmate" editions, which I know were fitted with the LSD.
#35
08-28-2014, 06:38 PM
Sun roof adds 61lbs to the TOP of a R53
A cheap durable LSD that fits the R53 is the ford focus SVT LSD
http://fordracingparts123.com/drivel...FeJcMgod1WYAuA
It's a thorsen type, so it has it's limitations.
Mine has been working great on and off track.
A cheap durable LSD that fits the R53 is the ford focus SVT LSD
http://fordracingparts123.com/drivel...FeJcMgod1WYAuA
It's a thorsen type, so it has it's limitations.
Mine has been working great on and off track.
#36
08-29-2014, 04:57 AM
Sun roof adds 61lbs to the TOP of a R53
A cheap durable LSD that fits the R53 is the ford focus SVT LSD
http://fordracingparts123.com/drivel...FeJcMgod1WYAuA
It's a thorsen type, so it has it's limitations.
Mine has been working great on and off track.
A cheap durable LSD that fits the R53 is the ford focus SVT LSD
http://fordracingparts123.com/drivel...FeJcMgod1WYAuA
It's a thorsen type, so it has it's limitations.
Mine has been working great on and off track.
As for durability, how hard would you say you have pushed your car with this LSD out on the track?
#37
08-29-2014, 05:08 AM
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#38
08-29-2014, 05:59 AM
Is there any chance that anyone knows the percent bias (slip vs non-slip side) is on this Ford LSD vs the MINI LSD vs the Quaife? I have seen MINIs on autocross courses and on the track with the stock LSD and they have done quite well. So I guess it would be reasonable to assume the Ford LSD would be as good if not better given how well I have seen them do in autocross.
#39
08-29-2014, 06:50 PM
Shift and drop the clutch as quick as I can.
Both wheels spin sometimes on upshifts entering straights.
Before the LSD my co-worker would lap me in his S2000, easily.
Now were almost dead even.
If he doesn't start with me he never passes me.
If I knew what I was doing on the track I might be able to pass him.
A LSD makes a huge difference for a FWD car in the corners.
Have about 8 track days on it.
Drive 120 miles a day to and from work.
Close to 25k miles on the diff now.
I thought the R56 used the same tranny.
Not 100% sure though.
No mods required to install.
Split open the tranny, remove old, install new, done.
Last edited by DanSeals; 08-29-2014 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Cant spell
#40
08-29-2014, 07:48 PM
#42
08-29-2014, 11:17 PM
Save 150 lbs., comes with a reduction pully installed, factory mapped, no back seat, no rear wiper , no sound insulation, camber plates, Aluminum rear trailing arms, larger intercooler, larger JCW brakes, free flow intake, free flow JCW exaust, large rear sway bar...OMG sounds like a Cooper GP
for sale # 1563
for sale # 1563
#44
09-09-2014, 01:42 PM
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Sounds like either route is an option, and it will probably come down to price. I'm seeing 05-06 R53s with around 100K miles for as cheap as $6K (obviously without LSD, etc...) all the way up to over $12K. With an overall expected budget of about $13K, I couldn't blow $11-12K on the car or there wouldn't be any budget left to modify with.
If only my wife had listened and ordered her R56 with the manual instead of the step, I wouldn't have this problem! I'd just have to buy her a "big Mini" as she calls it.
If only my wife had listened and ordered her R56 with the manual instead of the step, I wouldn't have this problem! I'd just have to buy her a "big Mini" as she calls it.
The good:
-factory lsd (only option aside from xenons)
-alta everything (intake, pulley, exhaust)
- 380cc injectors and factory 2006 JCW ecu
- H&R cup kit (essentially Koni Yellows with H&R springs)
- fixed camber plates
- IE rear sway
- R56 front brakes
the bad:
NYC parking bruises (doesn't matter for racing)
#45
08-06-2022, 07:06 PM
after a few years reading about tracking MINIs and a few thousand $ spent and some track time myself, I just want to point out that this post is SPOT ON. cheers @Eddie07S
Here's a few points for the MINI...
-The '05 and '06 are probably the most reliable. These also have upgraded engine and SC based on the JCW.
-Go with 15" wheels with about a 35mm offset and 7.5" width. With these you can put 225-45 tires on and improve the gearing, lower the car, improve the roll center and lower the rotating weight by a lot. And the added bonus is the tires are a lot cheaper than 16s or 17s.
-For brakes, at least upgrade to the Gen 2 S brakes (these are the JCW brakes for Gen 1s). But be prepared for the piston side pad to wear out twice as fast as the outer pad. Yes, with the right aftermarket wheels you can put 15" wheels over these. The best pads are Carbotech XP10s or XP12s. The Hawks are a distant second to these.
-But, better yet, if you are allowed, put on a set of Wilwoods with the 11.75" rotor (See TCE Performance products) with the Wilwood Poly "H" race pads or Carbotechs. Wilwood brake fluid works really well too. This BBK will also fit 15" wheels.
-Put in a set of camber plates set to -2.5 deg. This will work OK on the street.
-Change the rear sway bar for a 19mm one. People will say - screw the 19mm bar and go straight to the 22 or 25 mm bar and really get some rotation. Ya, you will get that, but it will be less forgiving and they are easy enough to change out later if you find you can handle a larger bar and a bit of oversteer that it will bring.
-The KONIs and Swift springs are good, but another option is BC coilovers which give height adjustment whereas the KONIs are fixed.
-LSD is a must. The factory LSD is usable.
- adjustable link for camber in the rear and for both sway bars.
I have matched Miatas with my MINI in HPDEs (I know, not quite the same) and have come across some are faster (not counting SC Miatas, which can be really fast) than me. My signature has my mods (not much), so I would see your goal as being at least competitive. If you are a good driver (take some lessons if not - around here the HPDEs are a great place to learn) you should do well.
BTY - What I described above is the build of the 2 MINIs friends of mine have and their cars are quicker than mine (a lot quicker) and both run the factor LSD on the track and both ran the cars on the street.
Most of all have fun...
-The '05 and '06 are probably the most reliable. These also have upgraded engine and SC based on the JCW.
-Go with 15" wheels with about a 35mm offset and 7.5" width. With these you can put 225-45 tires on and improve the gearing, lower the car, improve the roll center and lower the rotating weight by a lot. And the added bonus is the tires are a lot cheaper than 16s or 17s.
-For brakes, at least upgrade to the Gen 2 S brakes (these are the JCW brakes for Gen 1s). But be prepared for the piston side pad to wear out twice as fast as the outer pad. Yes, with the right aftermarket wheels you can put 15" wheels over these. The best pads are Carbotech XP10s or XP12s. The Hawks are a distant second to these.
-But, better yet, if you are allowed, put on a set of Wilwoods with the 11.75" rotor (See TCE Performance products) with the Wilwood Poly "H" race pads or Carbotechs. Wilwood brake fluid works really well too. This BBK will also fit 15" wheels.
-Put in a set of camber plates set to -2.5 deg. This will work OK on the street.
-Change the rear sway bar for a 19mm one. People will say - screw the 19mm bar and go straight to the 22 or 25 mm bar and really get some rotation. Ya, you will get that, but it will be less forgiving and they are easy enough to change out later if you find you can handle a larger bar and a bit of oversteer that it will bring.
-The KONIs and Swift springs are good, but another option is BC coilovers which give height adjustment whereas the KONIs are fixed.
-LSD is a must. The factory LSD is usable.
- adjustable link for camber in the rear and for both sway bars.
I have matched Miatas with my MINI in HPDEs (I know, not quite the same) and have come across some are faster (not counting SC Miatas, which can be really fast) than me. My signature has my mods (not much), so I would see your goal as being at least competitive. If you are a good driver (take some lessons if not - around here the HPDEs are a great place to learn) you should do well.
BTY - What I described above is the build of the 2 MINIs friends of mine have and their cars are quicker than mine (a lot quicker) and both run the factor LSD on the track and both ran the cars on the street.
Most of all have fun...
#46
08-07-2022, 05:50 AM
after a few years reading about tracking MINIs and a few thousand $ spent and some track time myself, I just want to point out that this post is SPOT ON. cheers @Eddie07S
Sound like you are enjoying your MINI to the fullest... Go you...
Might I add, that since I wrote that piece, I had a chance to take a hard look at what MINI did for suspension upgrades with each of their models - base to S to JCW to the optional JCW sports suspension. And I was able to see what LAP motors did with their Pro race MINIs. This lead me to installing installing a 27mm sway bar up front and a 25mm hollow bar in the rear on my R56S, keeping the Sports Suspension springs. This was an amazing transformation. Nope, didn’t add understeer. It actually took some understeer away. This increase in up front roll stiffness can also be achieve with stiffer front springs and adjustable shocks/coilovers. Ohlins or Bilsteins would be good choices. These paired with a 22mm (or 25mm hollow bar) can work as effectively as a 27mm front sway bar with a large rear bar. There are pros and cons to both setups.
The other thing I learned was that the MINI shocks are pure crap. I read a lot about them on NAM and was skeptical that they were that bad. It wasn’t until I damaged one and replaced the OEMs with Bilstein B8s that I became a believer.
I don’t see too many R53s on the track any more. In a way it is sad. But I do see a lot R53 reviving threads here on NAM, which is great to see. We still have our R50. Love the car.
Enjoy life and motor on...
#47
08-07-2022, 11:01 AM
I'm still racing my R53, in NASA ST5 this year. I may move to ST4 next year based on which class gets the most participation. I do think I am the only R53 racing in NASA. There was a guy in California but I haven't seen anything in the last year or so. Sneedspeed shows a pic every once in a while of an R53 with GTS2 stickers on it, but when I searched race records I couldn't find it.
Here's what its like: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ml#post4621800
P.S. The car is run with No front swaybar - big springs and shocks with very little rebound provide the more grip.
I've also learned that setup is very tire dependent - we use a completely different setup for RRs than we did for A7s.
Here's what its like: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ml#post4621800
P.S. The car is run with No front swaybar - big springs and shocks with very little rebound provide the more grip.
I've also learned that setup is very tire dependent - we use a completely different setup for RRs than we did for A7s.
#48
08-07-2022, 11:14 AM
I know that some people like the reduced front sway bar in order to maintain the independence between the 2 front wheels for curb hopping and retain handling with large springs/heavier shocks. I don’t do much curb hopping, so the sway bars work for me... Plus the car is mostly on the stock side of things. Options, Options, Options.
Intersting what you say about tires. Not something I have given any thought to. But it is a great point you bring up. I know that in this year’s IMSA competition the Corvette team is having to work through differences in setup for the tires from what they ran last year.
Intersting what you say about tires. Not something I have given any thought to. But it is a great point you bring up. I know that in this year’s IMSA competition the Corvette team is having to work through differences in setup for the tires from what they ran last year.
#49
08-15-2022, 12:55 PM
This is the best ‘apples to apples’ comparison I can offer.
Way back I bought a 10 year old NA Miata, low miles and bone stock. Had a local shop that specialized in Miatas bolt a supercharger to it. They were working on offering a kit for NAs but needed a stock non-AC as a test mule, so they offered to do it cheap. Drove that for a few years, low boost so no tire shredder but lots of midrange grunt.
But my wife was terrified of me driving something without a roll bar or airbag on the street so she let me trade her ‘02 cvt for an ‘05 S. The S had MUCH better tires and even as a fwd was faster off the line. My driving skills are mediocre, and the NA suspension/wheels were bone stock, but for my butt the Mini was faster and required much less input at speed. The Mini would forgive stupid, not so much the Miata.
I will say the Miata was fun, wish I’d figured out how to keep it, the Mini was just so much easier to live with. And buy groceries.
Way back I bought a 10 year old NA Miata, low miles and bone stock. Had a local shop that specialized in Miatas bolt a supercharger to it. They were working on offering a kit for NAs but needed a stock non-AC as a test mule, so they offered to do it cheap. Drove that for a few years, low boost so no tire shredder but lots of midrange grunt.
But my wife was terrified of me driving something without a roll bar or airbag on the street so she let me trade her ‘02 cvt for an ‘05 S. The S had MUCH better tires and even as a fwd was faster off the line. My driving skills are mediocre, and the NA suspension/wheels were bone stock, but for my butt the Mini was faster and required much less input at speed. The Mini would forgive stupid, not so much the Miata.
I will say the Miata was fun, wish I’d figured out how to keep it, the Mini was just so much easier to live with. And buy groceries.
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#50
08-16-2022, 11:59 AM
5th Gear
It's nice to see some people still campaigning the R53! I've seen a few R53's at the track, but none at the AutoX that i frequent. Hope to see some more!
To add an even less apples to apples comparison to this thread as I own both a R53 GP and a Honda S2000. The GP is significantly more forgiving than the S2000 to throttle inputs and ham fisted driving - i think I'm a good driver, but I'm not. Similar amounts of acceleration in stock form, with the S2000 being a little slicker in the higher gears due to aero - I'm guessing. I push the GP harder on the street than I do the S2000 as it's less likely to oversteer; on the track both cars will change direction with throttle and late braking and are a joy to drive in anger. Newer 200t tires are significantly stickier than tires available at the time these cars were new, so I can feel the limitations of the stock suspension when I'm really pushing it at the track.
To add an even less apples to apples comparison to this thread as I own both a R53 GP and a Honda S2000. The GP is significantly more forgiving than the S2000 to throttle inputs and ham fisted driving - i think I'm a good driver, but I'm not. Similar amounts of acceleration in stock form, with the S2000 being a little slicker in the higher gears due to aero - I'm guessing. I push the GP harder on the street than I do the S2000 as it's less likely to oversteer; on the track both cars will change direction with throttle and late braking and are a joy to drive in anger. Newer 200t tires are significantly stickier than tires available at the time these cars were new, so I can feel the limitations of the stock suspension when I'm really pushing it at the track.
Last edited by Soul Coughing; 08-16-2022 at 12:04 PM.
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