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The Keys to my MR2 and my Ducati's are hidden while my step-son is home for the holidays, and my wife has just had a total fit at me for not trusting him.
He is 20, but acts 14 at times, he has not given me any cause to think that he may be responsible, he cannot manage his money and his phone useage. He cannot balance a social life with decent grades at university, and is for the third year struggling again.
He smokes pot (his mother is unaware of this) and drinks tequila.
There have been a number of deaths of 18-22 year old 'kids' in high speed crashes and he is constanly asking to borrow the Mini or the MR2 - I never let him because he is a terrible driver and he is not insured.
Now my wife is having a major sulk with me - apparently I am being childish and he knows better than to drive my cars or even touch my bikes.....
I am afraid that he will borrow the MR2 and given its snap-oversteer tendancies will end up flying off the road backwards at high speed. Or he will wheelie the Duc into a bus queue etc.....
Hey, Max...if you are uncomfortable with your stepson's behavior, I understand why you want to hang onto the keys to your vehicles. Sorry about your wife, but if she doesn't know about some of his habits then she really doesn't understand why you are hiding the keys. Why you don't tell her is your business, of course, but perhaps if she really knew the situation, she'd support your actions.
She's only mad that you hid the keys not that you forbid him to drive it? That must mean she agrees with your worry that he can not handle the cars.... I'd hide the keys too! I trust my sons but if I didn't I'd hide keys from them.
__________________ WHEE256 AKA "MOE-- the Insanely cute MINI Cooper!"
2006 MCS HB/W/W-Slites; HKsound/XM; Premium/Sport packages; Custom bonnet/boot wrap by Aesthetic Creations... Born 9/11/06 Delivered 10/24/06
If it makes her feel better, hide the keys all the time...
If he's not allowed to drive vehicles, it should make no difference where the keys are, yes? Kids do stupid things. ALL kids. You are doing nobody a dis-service.
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'04 IB/W MCS w/all the goodies, Ian's auto-up/GDO, MMC#I69/MID CURV169; power folding mirrors
"You can't save the world unless you're willing to make other people sacrifice." - Dogbert, via Pendergast
It sounds like he isn't listed on your insurance policy for the vehicles. If that is the case and he causes an accident, your insurance company could raise you r rates through the roof or drop you. Trust has to be earned through responsibility shown over time, and it sounds like he hasn't bothered to earn your trust.
My son and daughter have quite a few years before they can drive, but they will have to show responsibility over time with their first (beater) cars that they drive. If they have earned my trust, I'll have no problem turning over the keys to some of my "toys". If they don't, they'll be stuck driving beaters until they show responsibility.
-Keith
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2005 Mini Cooper - Black/White 5-speed
2007 Subaru Forester XT - 2008 Mustang GT - 1990 Mazda Miata
Has he ever taken your vehicles without your permission?
If yes, then by all means: hide the keys!
If no, then I agree with your wife. You said he's "constantly asking", but you didn't say that he'd ever actually disregarded your refusal. This would lead me to believe that he at least respects you enough to listen and, if that's the case, preemptively distrusting him based on other behavior (completely unrelated to taking your vehicles without permission) sounds fairly crappy.
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"You got a great car... Yeah what's wrong with it today?"
Has he ever taken your vehicles without your permission?
If yes, then by all means: hide the keys!
If no, then I agree with your wife. You said he's "constantly asking", but you didn't say that he'd ever actually disregarded your refusal. This would lead me to believe that he at least respects you enough to listen and, if that's the case, preemptively distrusting him based on other behavior (completely unrelated to taking your vehicles without permission) sounds fairly crappy.
He borrowed my wifes old car (a Jeep Grand Cherokee) at least twice to my knowledge. The second time he borrowed it he put a small ding in the hood. His reason for borrowing it was that he did not have enough gas in his own car.
The problem is that I am between a rock and a hard place, I am aware of his drug use, my wife does not believe me, despite me showing her his my-space profile, his weed stash and his 'smoking gear' - it must be someone elses because he is anti-smoking. I showed her the drop in levels on the bottles of liquor - evaporation ;) and so it goes on......
I do not trust him, because he has not given me cause to trust him. If he takes the MR2 and blows it up or damages it, I will be mad. But if he takes it and kills himself, or others - like a number of kids his age have done in the past few months - I will feel guilty for not hiding the keys, for NOT taking measures to prevent him from driving it......
So when he takes cars without asking, he takes his mother's. I assume, then that he hasn't taken yours. I personally prefer to trust people until they give me reason not to but hey, it's your bag.
The pot smoking/drinking; I know few 20 year olds who didn't.
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"You got a great car... Yeah what's wrong with it today?"
He took his mothers because it was there - she often car pooled. Today when I leave for the office the MR2 and two Ducati's will be parked in the garage.
My issue is that the cost of trust could be his life, or an innocent person that was in the wrong place.
The MR2 is far from standard, it is quick and fine handling, but the snap-oversteer is brutal and extremely tough to catch. In the rain it is utterly lethal. His GF is in love with the car and wants him to take her out in it.
What are the chances that it will be borrowed ?
Anyway, my mind is made up, I am going to disable it - maybe let air out of the tires, disconnect the battery, the plug leads etc.
If you're hiding the keys, why do you additionally (and obviously) need to disable the vehicle? Hiding the keys I can see as an affront to the mother, but the kid should never know about it unless he's looking for them to "borrow" the car (which he obviously shouldn't be doing without your permission anyway). But doing something that's as obvious as letting air out of the tire -- something he could see when he walks into the garage -- is like him walking into the house and you immediately screaming that you don't trust him.
You have bigger problems with your stepson than his driving habits - that's obvious. I just hope it doesn't ruin your holidays or, worse, your relationship with your wife.
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"You got a great car... Yeah what's wrong with it today?"
It sounds like he isn't listed on your insurance policy for the vehicles. If that is the case and he causes an accident, your insurance company could raise you r rates through the roof or drop you. Trust has to be earned through responsibility shown over time, and it sounds like he hasn't bothered to earn your trust.
My son and daughter have quite a few years before they can drive, but they will have to show responsibility over time with their first (beater) cars that they drive. If they have earned my trust, I'll have no problem turning over the keys to some of my "toys". If they don't, they'll be stuck driving beaters until they show responsibility.
-Keith
Well... a person doesn't have to be listed on your policy to be covered in the event of an accident. There just has to be permissive use. If the stepson were to have an accident, the insurance company would contact the insured, MaxN, in this case, and verify he knows the driver (and the vehicle wasn't stolen). If he says yes, that consitutes permissive use and the loss would be covered.
MaxN's premiums would not go up because the driver is not a member of his household.
Now... the stepson's premiums may be affected on his own vehicle, if he has one and it's insured. The reason they might do that is Max's insurance company would likely subrogate against his stepson's policy and insurance company. That end of it can get very complicated.
Bottom line: Someone doesn't have to be listed on your policy in order for an accident to be covered in the event they were driving your vehicle.
BTW: My $.02... you are applying sound logic in hiding the keys, Max. Only bad things can come of your stepson taking one of your cars. The wife's angst with you is mild in comparison to the family issues that would arise if the stepson took one of your cars without asking you (even if he didn't have an accident).
While it is true that the stepson would be covered if given permission (I never said he wouldn't be covered), it isn't true that Max's rates would definitely not go up if his stepson caused an accident. I let a teenage friend borrow a car of mine a number of years ago (I shouldn't have trusted him). My "friend" ran someone off the road with my car, and my insurance rates went up, not my friends.
On our insurance policies, it specifically states: "There are no male or unmarried female drivers under age 25 assigned top this car" our insurance agent would likely not be too happy if my son drove one of our cars on any kind of regular basis without letting him know, if my teenage child was "assigned" to drive on of our cars on a regular basis, I'm sure the rates would be higher for that car than if just my wife and I drove it.
-Keith
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2005 Mini Cooper - Black/White 5-speed
2007 Subaru Forester XT - 2008 Mustang GT - 1990 Mazda Miata
"I see a lot of things right now that make me think you're not always acting responsibly. Want to discuss those things with me and your mother? Then, right after that, we'll talk about borrowing the cars."
Somehow, I don't see that conversation happening too soon.
Unless he's got a motorcyle license, the bike should be 100% prohibited, and I'd keep the keys in my pocket. That's the law. 80% of motorcycle accidents happen to riders with less than 60 days of experience.
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PS/Blk 2006 MCS
"It's actually bigger on the inside than it is on the outside"
Some cars are more than just an appliance, and if you're an enthusiast even more so. If these vehicles are part of your own hobby then that's important. If a car (the Cherokee) is available for your stepson to drive, then his needs are met. If that car is unavailable and he needs a ride, perhaps you could give him a lift, but I would not give him the keys unless you are comfortable with the circumstances.
While it is true that the stepson would be covered if given permission (I never said he wouldn't be covered), it isn't true that Max's rates would definitely not go up if his stepson caused an accident. I let a teenage friend borrow a car of mine a number of years ago (I shouldn't have trusted him). My "friend" ran someone off the road with my car, and my insurance rates went up, not my friends.
On our insurance policies, it specifically states: "There are no male or unmarried female drivers under age 25 assigned top this car" our insurance agent would likely not be too happy if my son drove one of our cars on any kind of regular basis without letting him know, if my teenage child was "assigned" to drive on of our cars on a regular basis, I'm sure the rates would be higher for that car than if just my wife and I drove it.
-Keith
Change your insurance company. Your rates should not be affected if your car is involved in an accident and the driver was a one-time or very occasional operator who does not reside with you. That's just crazy. Seriously... change insurance companies if that's how they apply rate increases.
Yes, there's hardly a policy in the world, from any carrier, that doesn't have that statement on it. And yes, if your son is in your household and has a driver's license, he SHOULD be rated on one of your vehicles. But in Max's case, his stepson is visiting and he does not have to be rated as a principal or occasional operator for any vehicle Max owns. Two very different cases.
Mineon - our son is specifially excluded from our cars in exactly the same way - we have a MINI, an MR2 and a 325i - the difference in insurance costs is substantial - about $1600 / year increase if he is added. he has his own car and insurance, not to mention his own address in a different state !
My motorcycle insurance company will not quote me a number, even in theory to add him to the motorcycles (Monster, 916 and GSXR), I think that having an old-fart motorcycle policy is a good thing He decided that he wanted to learn a couple of years back and his insurance on a theoretical GS500 worked out about 8x the cost of my bike insurance - needless to say he did not think that was 'fair'.
As it is I moved things around a little, I moved the two bikes in front of the MR2, then chained them together, and also to the tow-hook on the MR2. They are all wearing alarmed disk locks and to appease my wife I have moved my MR2 key back to the key rack. However the bike lock keys are in the safe and the combination for that is recently changed.
I have told him that if he even so much as breathes near the bikes, those breaths he takes will be his last. I have noted the mileages and the fule levels, now all I can hope is that he is not smart enough to figure out the safe combination, and not dumb enough to go joyriding.
If your wife is having such a big issue with you hiding the keys, don't.
But I completely agree with disabling the MR2 and the bikes. Pull the coil wires or coils so that there is no way for them to run at all. Your wife does not need to know about it and neither does your stepson. They won't know about it unless he tries to borrow them. If he does then maybe your wife will understand that he is not trustworthy, probably not but maybe, and no one dies. If he doesn't try to borrow them then family harmony has been preserved.
Additionally if he is as bad a driver as you say and un-insured then he shouldn't be driving at all. This needs to be fixed though. Take him out to an empty parking lot, better yet a track, and teach him how to drive. If he has no interest in it explain that if he ever wants to drive the MR2 he needs to learn how to really drive a car, not just turn the key an put your foot on the long skinny pedal. If you haven't take him out as a passenger on the track to show him what really diving can be like. He'll either get scared or learn to like it and be interested.
Easy fix - don't hide them, just take them with you, wherever you go! Attach the keys directly to the keychain of your MINI (or whatever car you drive daily), so that when you leave the house, so do the keys. This way, you're also not hiding anything... but it does ensure that you are the only one driving the cars - unless the stepson was to grab your whole key set while you are at home.
Let's see now. He steals booze from the house. Smokes dope. Takes his mom's car without permission (because it was the only car he COULD take). Has a girlfriend who wants to ride in the MR2....
Max, put the keys in a safe deposit box, and lock the wheels with a boot.
__________________ 2006 MCS-JCW No. 15543, BRG/W, Sport Pack, Chrono Pack, M7 SRP I love deadlines. I love the "whooshing" sound they make when they go by. - Doug Adams ambientpixel@mac.com
As it is I moved things around a little, I moved the two bikes in front of the MR2, then chained them together, and also to the tow-hook on the MR2. They are all wearing alarmed disk locks and to appease my wife I have moved my MR2 key back to the key rack. However the bike lock keys are in the safe and the combination for that is recently changed.
...
I'm down with hiding the keys, but IMO you're going a bit over the top with the above. If for harmony's sake the key needs to be on the ring, put it on the ring and hide the coil wire. Subtlety is good. (and yes, it's ironic that I bolded that statement.)
Locking the bikes and stashing the keys makes sense. Moving them and chaining them to the MR2 is overkill - a provocative statement that you don't trust him. I think it's fine not to trust him, but from what you've said you'll create more problems than you solve by explicitly putting that distrust on display. As it is, he could take it as a challenge to defeat the overkill measures, just for the halibut.
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'04 IB/W MCS w/all the goodies, Ian's auto-up/GDO, MMC#I69/MID CURV169; power folding mirrors
"You can't save the world unless you're willing to make other people sacrifice." - Dogbert, via Pendergast
Change your insurance company. Your rates should not be affected if your car is involved in an accident and the driver was a one-time or very occasional operator who does not reside with you. That's just crazy. Seriously... change insurance companies if that's how they apply rate increases...
Insurance works differently in different States. At least 20 years ago, the car was insured, not the driver. How do I know? I wrecked my high school counselor's truck (and two other cars) while I was taking care of her house. My insurance rate was unaffected. Don't know what happened to hers, as she was kind enough to absolve me of responsibility (though I feel guilty to this day.)
BTW, I was Valedictorian and a straight laced kid. Kids screw up more often than adults. I wouldn't hesitate to NOT let a youngster borrow a twitchy sportscar, and definitely not a sports bike!
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'04 IB/W MCS w/all the goodies, Ian's auto-up/GDO, MMC#I69/MID CURV169; power folding mirrors
"You can't save the world unless you're willing to make other people sacrifice." - Dogbert, via Pendergast
wow I can add this to my list of reasons i will never have kids. I say lock the keys up and if someone doesn't like it so be it, at least everyone will be alive even if they are mad. I would take alive and pissed off at me over Dead and pissed off at me any day of the week. Just my 2 cents.
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</BADD SPEELIN> </MATH WIZ>
My ambition far exceeded my talent. - George Jung http://www.customminishop.com/
"There are articles in Porn Mags ?Wow - learn something new everyday" ~ MaxN
I would take alive and pissed off at me over Dead and pissed off at me any day of the week. Just my 2 cents.
You can be DEAD and pissed off?
__________________ 2006 MCS-JCW No. 15543, BRG/W, Sport Pack, Chrono Pack, M7 SRP I love deadlines. I love the "whooshing" sound they make when they go by. - Doug Adams ambientpixel@mac.com
He decided that he wanted to learn a couple of years back and his insurance on a theoretical GS500 worked out about 8x the cost of my bike insurance - needless to say he did not think that was 'fair'.
my high school counselor's truck (and two other cars) while I was taking care of her house.
My insurance rate was unaffected. Don't know what happened to hers, as she was kind enough to absolve me of responsibility (though I feel guilty to this day.)
