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Hey ppl... I wanted to bring this over from the DFIC thread so a few of us could discuss exactly what this stuff is all about. Basically, there is a video from awhile back where this guy apparently has some device that separates the hydrogen from the oxygen in water, and is useable as a welding torch, as well as a method of reducing how much gas his vehicle uses. It seems pretty far fetched... some sources say total hoax... other sources seem worth learning more, investigating more. I welcome any and all input and discussion that can help some of us less scientific minded folks understand what this stuff is all about.... why it works or why it doesn't.
Thanks to M. Driskill for this link on wikipedia...
__________________ 2003 Electric Blue/Black Cooper S / Space Cloth / and everything but NAV and Sunroof. ALTA -15% , +2% Crank, intake, HKS 25mm Rear Sway Bar, Kingsborne wires, Denso IK24's, Amsoil 0w30, Lotf damper, M7 plasma booster and extreme scoop, Custom Whalen, TSW endlinks, springs, and slotted rotors with Porterfield R4-S pads, 15x7 Racemod matte black wheels, Nitto Neo Gen 205/50/15, Hankook Ventus 214 C70's for autocross, 20% Tint all around, www.myspace.com/f15eweapon
It also says this in the link for Browns gas. It is always a drain so even if you could get this to work on your car you would be using more energy to generate the gas than you would save by burning it.
So the question is what are you using as an eletrocatalyst, if you find one that gets even close to the theoretical 95% please let the world know about it.
who cares if the alternator has to work harder by producing 15amps extra, if you are doubling your fuel economy and increasing power and making less emissions.
The current most popular electro-catalyst is KHO, Potassium Hydroxide. This is used in the making of soap as well.
Another important factor is how precise the placement is on the metal plates inside the reaction chamber. The closer they are, the wider the arc between them, increasing the surface area, and therefore "splitting" more water.
Overunity energy conversion... nope. Brown's Gas is real, it's not pure hydrogen though, it's a carbon-hydroxy based gas. A long, long time ago, it was used in street lights across the world and it was known as lamp gas (or coal gas). The "electrolysis" described in making Brown's gas is very similar to the way coal gas was made, and incidentally, it is now considered in its liquified form as an alternative "clean burning" coal solution for electric plants.
But, the conversion process is not 100% efficient, let alone produce extra energy. You're just converting mechanical->battery->gas-> mechanical which is a lossy process at each step. The better solution is to make your own at home, converting say solar to the gas, then using it in pressurized form as an alternative fuel or power booster.
This was on cartalk recently. it's worth a try if you have an old beater. What the heck.
There is no free engergy but you might be saving some that would otherwise be waisted.
After you start the engine the car should run entirely off the alternator and still charge the battery if everything is working correctly. (this is why jump starting work)
In theory you could also create a little browns gas, hydrogen or whatever, without adding to much strain on the electrical system. The gas could be added to the intake to improve combustion. Of course this would probably cause all kinds of problems with a computerized fuel system that wouldn't know how to react to the crazy data it's getting from the O2 sensors.
I'd believe a claim like a 5% increase in fuel economy but not much more.
If this system worked as well as the claims it would be in your car stock!
There is no oil conspiracy suppressing super fuel efficient technology. The price of gas was so low the past decade or more that consumers bought larger more powerful cars over fuel efficient ones. The automakers made cars to sell not to benefit the environment.
First off the technology of creating HHO is not new at all. It's maybe more than 100 years old. Most of the systems out there get your money by selling some unimaginably simple contraption draped in wool to do the job. Or, sell you a book to go buy parts and build your own. The problem with most is it is not a generic "one-size-fits-all" setup. You'll need to study the process and make adjustments for YOUR subject vehicle. Else you could blow the top half of your engine and hood off your car.
Older cars are better subjects because of their lack of technology. There is a fellow that has done a conversion to his Chevy S-10. He runs you through the whole setup and how to do it FREE! If you'd like to check it out go here: www.mindstrain.com. I would recommend getting all the information he links to. There's no cost so seems to me there'd be little to hide. He just did it to see if it could be done. He now drives his "Hybrid" S-10 and gets 75% better MPG... so he claims.
Now would I try this on my MCS? Not on your life. If I go to a get together and see someone else has done it first to their own MCS, maybe. BIG MAYBE! I might try an ol' bug test first. Then, AFTER, I have a VW (maybe a rail) bug running on "water" I'll look into making the change on my Cooper.
I have a few buddies that want to try HHO. It sounds pretty interesting and I'll be keeping track of their progress.
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'02 MCS, Sport, Premium, Webb Sportbox RAF, 15% pulley, Milltek cat back, H-Sport comp rear swaybar, Powerflex engine and gearbox inserts, Stewart Warner boost and oil temp gauges in E-Pod, Optima Red Top 35, Whalen knob, M7 front grill, Hella FF200 fog lights on Out Motoring brackets, MCAW
This is an interesting thread, however I don't see myself doing any of this I do want to point out that Honda has already done something like this w/ the Clarity FCX. Apparently they are trying to make it so the fueling system could be put in your own garage. Pretty neat if you ask me.
All the HHO conversions I've seen do not carry tanks of HHO (Hydroxy) around. Too dangerous. The conversions instead have a tank of water piped to a multi cell electrolysis box with multiple cells. With a sensor of the box it powers a pump to kep the cells full of water. You'd only have a few feet of hose with something other than water (HHO). Safer that way.
All the HHO conversions I've seen do not carry tanks of HHO (Hydroxy) around. Too dangerous. The conversions instead have a tank of water piped to a multi cell electrolysis box with multiple cells. With a sensor of the box it powers a pump to kep the cells full of water. You'd only have a few feet of hose with something other than water (HHO). Safer that way.
Maybe for a conversion yes, but if a vehicle is built for it which the Honda is, it has to meet specific standards for impacts. We watched the video on the impact it was sweet to see some of the things they had to do to that fuel cell to prove how strong it was.
Let's all get something straight here. A Fuel Cell gas/electric hybrid is not what we're talking about in HHO conversion. The HHO 'cell' does not generate electricity. HHO is a more stable gas than H2 or O alone. HHO gas is piped into the the intake and (as I undrstand it) acts as a pre-igniter for gasoline. The vehicle gets better miles by using gasoline more efficiently. Adjustments in water to electrolyte mixture change the amount of HHO produced and are made for each conversion; there are no generic amounts to use. An HHO conversion does NOT create electricity to push an electric motor.
The mindstrain link I gave above has a tank that holds water and converted gas in the back of the guys truck. And, gas in the hose to the front of the truck. Personally I would have a tank in the back that pipes water to the cell/converter under the hood. This would minimize 'explosive' problems. The amount of HHO stored would cause no more than a flash (flash paper) and a puff of steam. I would also consider something along separating the HH from O piping the HH into the fuel line and O into the intake and try running on HHO ONLY. Pretty sure I could do this with an ol' bug.
Take note also that Hydrogen, even separate from Oxygen, is more stable than gasoline. Most seem to think Hindenburg when they talk about Hydrogen. Truth be told it was not the Hydrogen that started the Hindenburg fire. It was the coating used in the cloth cover of the zeppelin. The Hydrogen just happened to get in the way.
youtube is amazing... i cant wait to do this to my beater car!
dont do it to a MINI! ive read this system is most efficient on N/A cars, and can cause lag issues with forced induction vehicles.
after much research, ive witnessed and discovered that in many ways using this technology is like an ongoing science experiment. if youre into it like a hobby it can be fun. all the metal parts on most of the commercial and the current homemade incarnations are made mostly of stainless steel. these parts become oxidized and need to be replaced in less than 1 year increments. basically the efficiency of the hydrolysis decreases as the plates and metal bits oxidize, so you can see there is a bit of labor involved.
seems like the perfect project for those of us who like to tinker.
There are folks doing this HHO conversion to newer vehicles. There is some sort of EFIC (?) circuit that is added and steps to counter the computer in most modern cars. So, maybe I would consider it, IF someone came up with a MINI only plan/kit or I knew someone that had done it to their own MINI.
Alone, it's a beater first. Am moving to Arizona in a couple of months. Figure I'll be picking up a rail bug some time and will try it out on that ol'air cooled puppy. As is I just lay off the pedal and stay at the limit and that saves gas.
Keep and eye out here through the month. Am moving my MINI out to Arizona this week. We leave Saturday driving the whole way. Mostly I-10. Two stops between Florida and Arizona. First in Louisiana. Then in Texas. About 750 miles per day for the whole trip. KOA camping with a MINI. Whoo Pee.
Well my buddies and I had a talk with a professor at my University who does alternative fuel research and actually consults with a big company in HHO. The gist of it is, you will be cutting engine power proportionally with mileage gain. There are several other considerations he explained but it looks like HHO is not what it's hyped up to be.
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'02 MCS, Sport, Premium, Webb Sportbox RAF, 15% pulley, Milltek cat back, H-Sport comp rear swaybar, Powerflex engine and gearbox inserts, Stewart Warner boost and oil temp gauges in E-Pod, Optima Red Top 35, Whalen knob, M7 front grill, Hella FF200 fog lights on Out Motoring brackets, MCAW
i came across this link...http://www.watertogas.com/ sounds kinda hokey...but my dad is actually making his own system like this one that runs entirely on parahydrogen and (monohyrdogen i believe ) ...i'll keep ya'll posted that too!
The videos i have seen online seem compelling and significant although there are a few problems with this system:
1.the burn rates of the two gasses. gasoline burns at a much slower rate than hydrogen.
2.cost of water...
3.performance of the gasoline engine...engines running on gas will see an improvement in mileage, although the performance will not be as good.
The beauty of all this is that it is in the public domain now. several people have died trying to get this to the people...now people are begining to consider this ...with gas as high as it is.
the patents on this system have had several updates in the last few years and the technology is proven and works.- with a gasoline mix...not entirely without fossil fuels.yet.
__________________ (build nov. 06 - purchased may.07) 07 my/b mcs, cloth, sport, checkered, and Goodyear F1 AS,
I posted this in the other thread in General Talk:
Quote:
While we haven't actually tried out a hydrogen injection system ourselves, Popular Mechanics has. Mike Allen at PM installed a hydrogen generating and injection system in a test vehicle and used a data logging system to record the fuel flow. The hydrogen system had a switch to enable and disable the system. By monitoring the fuel injection pulses, the most direct measure of how much fuel was being delivered to the engine, he found absolutely no change in fuel consumption. The one change Allen did see was a drop of a couple of tenths of a volt in the vehicle system voltage when the electrolyzer was turned on indicating the load it was putting on the electrical system.
My neighbor is converting his old ford ranger to run on hydrogen. He just built the generator, out of pvc and stainless tubes for the anodes cathodes(?). He had a successful hydrogen generation this past weekend. Hooked this thing up to his car battery and had 60 psi in less than 40 secs. Pure hydrogen, using distilled water and baking soda as a catalyst. Once he gets this working I am going to convert my 94 wrangler . He is going to use an old half keg as his hydrogen storage tank in the back of the truck. All this and he has a ninth grade math education. As he says "this is not rocket science"
__________________ 05/S PS
Motoring ID: Fuel420
MMC: 518
"Everytime Meatwad smiles a rainbow craps a baby" ATHF
Hydrogen generators work, but they will not save you money on gas. It's not rocket science to build those things, but understanding what the process is does take knowledge of physics and chemistry. Plenty of research and explanations on the web as to why you won't save fuel.
Hydrogen generators work, but they will not save you money on gas. It's not rocket science to build those things, but understanding what the process is does take knowledge of physics and chemistry. Plenty of research and explanations on the web as to why you won't save fuel.
He is going to be running his truck solely on hydrogen gas, not injecting into a air/gas mix. So he should save fuel the instant he turns off the gas line and switches to hydrogen. There are a lot of other things I am leaving out here that I don't quite understand, and I will have to see it to believe it, but I am intrigued to say the least.
__________________ 05/S PS
Motoring ID: Fuel420
MMC: 518
"Everytime Meatwad smiles a rainbow craps a baby" ATHF
Ummm. Tell him that there's this little thing called the first law of thermodynamics (better known as conservation of energy) that says it's not going to work. You can't run the car solely on hydrogen. If everything worked at 100% efficiency, you would only be able to create enough hydrogen to power the alternator to produce the same amount of hydrogen you just used to power the alternator... You would have no power to run the car; and this was at 100% efficiency across the board. If you figure out how to run a car on hydrogen that it makes while driving, you just made yourself the richest man in the world.
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'02 MCS, Sport, Premium, Webb Sportbox RAF, 15% pulley, Milltek cat back, H-Sport comp rear swaybar, Powerflex engine and gearbox inserts, Stewart Warner boost and oil temp gauges in E-Pod, Optima Red Top 35, Whalen knob, M7 front grill, Hella FF200 fog lights on Out Motoring brackets, MCAW
Water powered vehicles? Browns Gas/HHO Discussion vs Physics
There is no denying this all conflicts with known science. So does science say that we already discovered everything. Could be that we missed something and the physical laws of energy conversion may need to be repealed. At this point it time it seems that the science community has done nothing, but say it can't be done and that all truly useful inventions have been invented by non-science types. If all I can do is get close to double the mileage of my MCS then I'd like to try. Here is a link that shows a lot more information . His science seems to be sound and is what first triggered my own curiosity:
I am now in Arizona and looking to pickup that ol'bug. Just no one wants to get rid of them these days. From what I've been able to gather since my last is that your standard factory alternator may peek at the needed amps, but can not sustain some 200 amps. Either upgrading or adding another alternator would be the "fix." Not a good prospect for a MINI... not enough space in that already full engine compartment. A rail/baja bug on the other hand has plenty of open space to upgrade the alternator.
All the experiments I've seen also send HH and O to the intake manifold. Still no one is separating the gases. Seems to me, if you separate the HH and the O and adjust the mix at the carb/intake, you could adjust the power. It would be another way to adjust the whole conversion anyway since no two conversions will be the same.
2003 Electric Blue/Black Cooper S / Space Cloth / and everything but NAV and Sunroof. ALTA -15% , +2% Crank, intake, HKS 25mm Rear Sway Bar, Kingsborne wires, Denso IK24's, Amsoil 0w30, Lotf damper, M7 plasma booster and extreme scoop, Custom Whalen, TSW endlinks, springs, and slotted rotors with Porterfield R4-S pads, 15x7 Racemod matte black wheels, Nitto Neo Gen 205/50/15, Hankook Ventus 214 C70's for autocross, 20% Tint all around, 
Forced induction is so delicious...
(build nov. 06 - purchased may.07) 07 my/b mcs, cloth, sport, checkered, and Goodyear F1 AS,
05/S PS
