Anyone running them in the stock 6" underseat boxes?

Supposedly they fit but I want to make sure before I spend the money on them.

Here is the two speakers along with the mounting ring.

 

Yes, more or less a "bolt-in" replacement for the stock 6" speakers.
You will however need to trim the opening out by about 1/8". I used a Dremel and small jig saw. The speakers will not sit flush in the plastic enclosure without the modification. Screw holes line up perfectly. Oh, and they sound great! Major improvement on the stock and dare I say better then the HK option. Of course the new Focal amp may have something to do with that also.

 

Which amp is that?

 

Focal 4ch amp:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-LECmZQV....html?tp=35782

Small size, decent power, crossovers, and high and low signal inputs.
Oh, and its a Focal.

 

I should probably add that if you get the adapter rings like demon510 describes you shouldn't need to modify the enclosure like I did to get it to fit flush. :-(
http://earthquakesound.eu/car-audio/...s/r8-sws-.aspx

 

I've cracked open my underseat enclosures and ready to drop in the right driver. The SWS8 looks like a convenient option.

However, I'm not opposed to look at other options. It looks like there are some standard depth 6.5" subs (JL Audio 6w3v3 or maybe even 8w3v3) that might work too (~4.25" mounting depth). I can easily fashion a hardwood mounting plate to sit between the sub and the enclosure, to get it to seat properly. Has anyone done similar?

 

Rai1gun.
The only other "drop in" replacement that I am aware of is the Focal:
http://www.focal.com/en/integration-...ifbmw-sub.html
A lot pricier than the Earthquake option.
I would be wary of the JL Audio drivers you mentioned. I think they will be too deep. The Earthquakes are over 2" deep and I have less than an inch of clearance left in the stock enclosure.
As I mentioned in the X9331 thread I think you will get the best results with using the stock enclosure.
I have read your posts thoroughly and kept up with your progress and some of the difficulties you have been having getting it tuned and EQ'd. My suggestions would be:

1. Get the better Focal 100 KS 4" speakers up front. You can always move the IC 100's to the rear. They are worth every penny IMO.
2. Keep the under seat bass drivers, which I think you are on track for by this thread. Also evidenced by your comment in the other thread of a "hole" in the bass with only the 4" up front and your 10" sub in the back. Honestly I don't think I even need a sub with the Earthquakes installed. They are just that good. Everyone who listens to them assumes I have a sub in the back.
3. Try moving your crossover to 200hz. The Focal 4" seem to work best with that and it matches up well with the specs of the Earthquake (300hz). I wouldn't expect to get much below 200hz from the 4" drivers up front, even the Focal's.
4. Keep plugging away. Your efforts will be rewarded. Our systems are very similar and I am enjoying every minute of mine.

I will also post on your X9331 thread with some pics of the enclosure sans driver.

 

jkline: Thanks very much for your input on this. As you know, there really isn't much information on the web about this kind on project with the CMS.

I ordered the pair of SWS8 (@2 Ohm, to pair with the JL Audio XD 200), and will be installing them later this week. I'll try to get some additional photos for others that may be considering same.

The Focals for the front will happen next, and the only hold up is getting the HK pylon trim mounts that I'll need to install the tweeters. Looks like ECS tuning is waiting on inventory due late June.

It will be interesting to figure out what the new crossover points will be. I was sending 80Hz-200Hz to the underseats, but with my crap custom enclosures and questionable drivers it was kind of a mess.

 

Rai1gun, glad to hear. Keep us posted.
Don't forget this thread if you haven't see it already:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...r-for-r60.html
FWIW, AudioFile did the tweeters using the stock pillar triangle:
http://www.audiofile-incar.co.uk/ind...ade&Itemid=103

Might be worth a try.

 

For which model mini are you guys referring to?

 

Countryman.
The under seat bass drivers are common on all Countryman and Paceman I believe.
If you have the factory HK system the drivers go from 6 1/2" to 8" in the same enclosure. The sound system in the Countryman is basically the same as found in a number of BMW models.

 

SWS8Xi's are installed. Huge improvement over my worthless custom enclosures and 6.5" drivers. This mod, with an amp (as mentioned by others) will work just fine for most without the need for an additional subwoofer in the boot.

For those out there who were challenged like I was....You CAN get into the enclosures with a hammer, chisels, and a strong flathead screwdriver. Work at the seam about 3/8" from the top that runs around the enclosure. The top piece is what the OEM driver is suspended from, inverted. It's glued on, and has to be pried away. I had to be fairly aggressive, but was always confident that if something broke or cracked, it would be what I was trying to remove anyway. So be patient, and stay at it.

My config at present:

Front / Rear speakers: LP 110 Hz
Underseats: SWS-8Xi (2 Ohm) BP 60 Hz / 110 Hz
Rear sub: JL Audio CS110-TW3 HP 60 Hz

My system sounds brand new again, and very strong. A lot of it is the new subs, but also a shift on the LP of my mains down from 240 to 110 Hz. For me, there is a ton of warmth and spatial separation in that freq band, and should stay with the mains if possible.

Performance of the SWS8's is very good, a lot of which is likely returning to the use of the OEM enclosures. In my opinion, upgrading these speakers + amp is the best way to get 'feel it in your chest' bass+mid-bass impact. I don't think that can happen with ANY sub config in the boot due to distance, placement and phase challenges. By sitting right on top of these, you get great feedback but without having to rattle the whole car to pieces (like what happens with subs in the boot).

My new Focal KRS 100's (front) and JL C2-400's (rear, had to get rid of alum tweets) are on the way.

 

Rai1gun,
Looking good. Glad to hear you are having success with the Earthquakes. I can second your impressions of these drivers. Can't wait to hear your opinion of the Focal 100 KRS.

 

@rai1gun

As much as I like reading about your findings, your statement regarding subs in the boot (low bass freq) are highly misleading and completely incorrect regarding distance, placement, phasing and overall performance. Fantastic results can be achieved in the boot of a Countryman "IF" the installation is done correctly. It can actually outperform ANYTHING possible that would be put under the seat as far as the lower frequencies are concerned unless you put a hole in the bottom of your CM and vented the back waves outside in an IB configuration. Now don't get me wrong. The under the seat option you have executed is highly convenient, a less labour intensive install, more cost effective with likely very decent factory-like results. I don't dispute that one bit. I think it's actually totally awesome. But let's not post that it's better than something else when it's actually not.

With regards to mid-bass, it's still somewhat directional and the real ideal place for it is in the kick panels where you can get the PLD's equalized. Under the seats is horrible. Regardless, crossing down like you did to 110hz is pretty much getting rid of the midbass in those drivers anyways. So you have not much in the way of mid-bass from under your seats = good thing !!


Cheers

 

I stand by my observations. My JL 10" sub, 500 watts RMS from my JL amp, and Helix P-DSP were tweaked again and again, and I could never get much 'feel' in the 80-140Hz range. I attribute much of that to:

1) sub distance and off-axis orientation (which I think matters more in a car than in HT, due to sound energy loss into / through the mass of the more confined space)
2) phase challenges with road noise at speed, mainly...I feel the car eats / masks 80-140Hz with my tires and local roads
3) firing into a sound absorbing space (rear boot) further dampened by the rear seats
4) limitations of a shallow throw sub

By no mean do I present my experiences as empirical fact, but rather an opinion after over two years of working on this vehicle. Again, to achieve the immediate feel of what I have under my seats (far from stock / factory performance or equip, 2CH JL amp there too, as well as some dynamat), a sub setup in the boot would have to become a much more permanent fixture (LOL hole in the floor, infinite baffle config ), and obnoxiously loud to non-occupants of the vehicle. For most people, I still think you can completely pass on the rear sub if the underseats are handled properly. And still retain the great storage back there!

AS FOR THE FOCALS:

Man, you get what you pay for. Unbelievable resolution and detail, although a tad bright out of the box (+0/+0 at the crossovers). I've got them rolled off a few dB at 10Hz at a .5 slope. Sounds fantastic. Imaging, air, soaring mids, and much smoother highs. But they do fall off on the low end more quickly than the cheaper IC 100s. It's probably best to not ask anything less than 120Hz from them.

I'm going to let it all settle in for a few weeks, and continue to tweak with the P-DSP. So far, I'm very very pleased.

Thanks very much to everyone in this thread and elsewhere regarding the SWS8's!

 

Rai1gun, I would like to thank you for all the information and experiences you have shared in this and other threads. immensely valuable!

 

I should ammend my comment here to say that my sub is still very much contributing to my end result. It's thumping along covering the low end up to 60Hz. So I'm not so sure I'd opt to go without it, havent tried yet to see. If I do, I'll update here. So please do note that my satisfaction with the SWS8's is definitely skewed accordingly.

 

I typically read the threads mostly, but I did want to comment on this one. I Do agree strongly you need some type of mid bass up front. Asking a sub in the boot crossed over at 110Hz and your 4" speakers handing everything else does lead to a lot of spacial separation. You can over come this with time delays and synchronization, or you can just get some mid bass speakers.

I started with a 8" sub in the boot and the 4 inch coaxial speakers and it just sounded flat in the mid. I ended running a economical set up with two sets of Alpine speakers (already had the 4" coax in the door and added same brand / line 6.5" component. Ran it all together with a 3 way crossover to give me a 6.5" midbass 4" mid and then tweeter in the A pillar. It's not the best but a million times better then just the sub and 4" speakers. If I was to do it all over again I would put in the focal 3 ways, maybe in the future that will happen but for now, my economy system sounds much better then the MINI Harmon system.

Keep up the good work everyone, I used this site for a lot of information when building my system. Hopefully many others get the same advice / support as I did.

 

An alternative to the SWS, the Match MS 8B-BMW.2

 

We definitely all have our own experiences and thoughts in matters such as this. So I hope you don’t mind me continuing on with my thoughts on this topic.

Bass is usually from 120hz and down. That being said, almost all bass frequencies have a wave length that is longer than the length of your interior. These frequencies build up inside the vehicle and are known as cabin gain (or transfer function). They end up just pressurize the car under a specific frequency (related specifically to the size of the interior of the vehicle) and you get a bump up of output (it gets louder!!). You can get a lot more bass in your car than in your house because of this for example. But a subwoofer generally does not function acoustically like a mid-bass or mid-range driver in a car due to the small-ish environment.

Road/tire noise is usually in the 800-1200hz range, so I don’t believe it’s impacting your subwoofer experience. And there's not a lot of absorptive material found on the interior of a Countryman to kill of sounds waves. There's a lot of glass and hard plastic though, which causes a lot of unwanted sound reflections and vibrations.

What I will agree on is that a vehicle interior that rattles like crazy can create an illusion of where sound or bass is coming from. And the Countryman is a bonafide rattler especially out back!! And that is where the under-seat installation will shine. The boot of the CM needs a lot of sound dampening help to actually function properly for a subwoofer setup so your attention is not drawn to the back if you're looking for a pure sound quality experience. That makes the back end setup a bit more work. But, you can also install a subwoofer that has far better performance in this frequency range that is not handicapped by the very tight space found under the front seat. The underside of the front seat and the surround carpet will dampen the output of an under seat setup as well if output levels are a concern (getting the most bang for your buck). Both setups do work but you have a lot more options out back. And with a little more work and the right knowledge in hand, I believe the setup out back will outperform anything under the front seats. BUT, say good-bye to some of your storage though.

 

I'm of the opinion that it's mid-bass (150-400Hz) which is the most problematic with the stock CM speaker configuration.

Being stuck with 4" drivers in the doors means you aren't going to get much mid-bass there. As mentioned in this thread, mid-bass can be quite directional, and therefore shouldn't be dumped to the underseats (regardless of the driver there). While you may be able to reproduce a nice flat freq response doing so, you'll lose a lot of spatial dimension in that band, which can contribute to a perceived 'hole in the middle' quality. I'd describe it as robbing the system of the ability to sound 'large' or 'live' instead of just loud.

But that's what we have to work with, without permanent modifications to the door panels to fit in a 6.75" for example (which I may yet do, as the JL C2's I put in the rear are a joke, waste of money, IC 100 may have been better).

So, as I continue to tune with the Helix, and tinker with amp gains, it's the crossover relationship between the underseats and the Focals that seems to be the crux in maximizing bass / mid-bass performance in my Countryman.

I'll be tuning with a mic and spectrum analyzer over the weekend, and will post my findings here.

Also, look for an AppleTV thread I'll start up soon. It's working in my car, giving me wireless Airplay audio streaming from my phone, thru the AppleTV, then optical(!) out to the Helix. The sonic differences between this method vs the HO of the iPhone is huge.

 

Just going to toss out something that has been in the back of my head for some time relating to car audio. My kid's boom box uses some small drivers and yet is able to throw out some really decent mid-bass "jam". That's always bothered me as we should be able to transfer that to the car. I think there's a few things at play there though. First, it's a tuned enclosed behind it. Second, I don't know what the electronics are that are behind the scenes of those small drivers. Regardless, I'm looking at "other" options such as 4" home audio drivers that those home audio lads use that covers a very WIDE frequency spectrum. Now, with that being said, there's the problem that the 4" in our doors will be using the door itself as the enclosure and that is in no way optimal or tuned as they say for the needs of the 4" speaker. It's actually really a disaster from a design/build point of view. But regardless, I'm going to give her a go and see what happens. If there's a way to get a 4" to play down into the midbass region fairly cleanly, it could be interesting times.

A few things I see with regards to that installation. And I've spent a few hours just staring at the door setup in the last while waiting for the audio gods to shine the light on my head so I can see the light. So far, nothing. Anyways, the door card and the door itself will need to have sound deadening applied, as well as all the wiring and "loose" stuff tied down tight so there's minimal vibration/rattle. The other thing bugging me that is that when the door is closed, the 4" driver is blocked by the dash. This is crappy for a speaker that is giving you your mid-range. This issue is not really fixable. Upside of the 4" location if you have tweeters in the sail panel, is that the mid/mid-bass and tweeter are really close to one another which is good when it comes time to tune.

Ok, so reality is (to me anyways) if you REALLY want to sort this out for a solid front stage and do it better, you need to hack up your door panels. Drop and 6.5"/7"/shallow 8" in the bottom corner for mid-bass duties. The 4" location is good for the mid-range as it's nice and high as well as close to the tweeter but one needs to somehow address the dash blockage. The sail panels are great for the tweets and should give the illusion of a wide stage. also, the doors need to be sound deadened as well as the door card. The last thing is running wiring into the door and getting some real power to those drivers.

I did this all on my '08 Clubman S and it was a PAINFUL experience to build. I ran a Pioneer P99R head unit (yes, the factory head unit was removed and the brains put behind the speedometer), mids and mid-bass in the doors and tweeters in the a-pillars. 15" sub in the boot in a sealed enclosure. 8-channels of amplification.... blah, blah, blah. I haven't started down this road yet in the Countryman. I want to........ but it's so much gawd damn work to do it right. IF Mini would have only given us a standard normal stand alone radio that was removable to allow for a DIN size opening, starting this would be galactically easier.

 

I have definitely considered this, but have not due to my commitment to stealth protocol as well as having concerns about enclosure acoustics behind anything I put down there anyway. Under no circumstances do I want to introduce the potential for any more sonic anomalies to deal with!

Here's an OT question though that has been haunting me:

My amp in the boot is feeding all of my door speakers over a smallish snake (multi-conductor) cable that runs back up to the front of the car and ties into the audio harness where the OEM HU originally the same. Each speaker run is probably travelling over 15' of 18-24 (not sure, whatever is in the snake) gauge wiring.

My question is should I go through the trouble of laying new, fatter home runs back to the amp? It does get hot (JL HD900/5) after a period of time, so perhaps the resistance from the small gauge wiring is contributing to this? What about the difference in sound quality? Replacing it would be a TON of work!

 

To check out your speaker wiring sizing, try using this calculator.

For example when entering in 100 watts, 15ft, 16 gauge and 4ohm load, your fine according to this calculator. Downsize that to 18 gauge and you get a warning.

Speaker Wiring Sizing



In my Clubman, I gutted out the whole interior and sound deadened the car as well running all new wiring. It's not necessary to "gut" the vehicle, but to run all new wiring and make it easier install wise, I'd recommend you will need to:

• Disconnect the battery.
• Remove the front and rear seats (I've done it with the seats in and it can be done but......I have large hands).
• Remove a bunch of interior panels (kick panels) and the door card.
• Find a way to get through the door wiring harness connector that's on the main body of the car. I've done it for two sets of wires. Running three, not sure. It may be possible. But this part by FAR is the hardest part and you will curse like you never have before.

BTW, out of interest sake, I hated the first design I had for my Clubman with regards to the amp rack and all the wiring runs. I believe I was using a JL 600/6 (plus a 900/1 I think). On the second time around I built a small amp rack that went in the very front of the passenger side foot area on top of the carpet on the sloped portion. I built a matching carpeted floor to cover it up. Lost about 4-5" of foot space at the very front but my amp for the 3-ways was now at the front of the car and was dirty easy to run all my wiring. I also ran a dedicated power wire for that amp from a fuse block that was under the hood. The sub amp still remained in the back of the car though on a separate setup. Just saying....... some times you have to get creative in a small car!! Oddly enough, that setup fits in exactly to the Countryman when I did a trial fit. So if I do go insane and built my Countryman, that's where my amp will go for the front stage just because it's so easy to setup and run the necessary wiring.

 

Picture worth a thousand times more than two figure typing. Pardon the poor picture and the filthiness of the car. The amp is bolted to a plate that is bolted through the carpet to another plate I installed on the backside of the carpet. When I turned in the car, it all came out and it looked as if nothing was ever there. 100% factory look once removed...... no cutting.