I'll be here whenever you are ready or if you have any questions.

Re: the price/quality difference - I was comparing our $1500 Soundstage (w/o subwoofer) to the Alpine. From what I recall, folks were paying in the neighborhood of $1400-1600 total installed (~8 hours of dealer labor). I may be off on that, and it will obviously vary from dealer to dealer.

If you are talking about our $2299 Soundstage + Subwoofer, then we're talking apples and camels - it's not even worth talking about the two in the same sentence at that point.

 

I can certainly make a box, but (yet again) the idea is to save the time for other aspects of life. I know it sounds good to say "our box works only with our woofer", but we all know that is simply not the case. While I am sure you designed the box for that sub, there are more than a few 10" drivers that provide a similar alignment in the same size box as the SB Acoustics driver. There are also many that test better as a woofer, IMO. Seen the Klippel on this guy?

I cannot determine the loss in your case. I assume it is no big deal for you, as you are pretty quick to dismiss the change to provide some information. I would think a company who is trying to sell to a community might take the time to provide information beyond "because we think so" as a response, but then, I dont currently work in marketing.

As to being impressed - It is impressive that someone has taken the time to work out a system for those that want a basic upgrade for their audio system. It is also impressive to see that a company will source some of the raw drivers for products, rather than shoving a set of pre-assembled car-fi products into a "kit", and try to market that. I am asking questions that any informed consumer might ask.

You can keep harping on not wanting to sell a box, or answer some of the other questions asked. I dont think you need to worry about the average consumer going out and buying the raw drivers and building their own crossovers, and very few would even consider going active with them anyways.

I have yet to be impressed with passive crossover designs, but that is easily and cheaply (relative) resolved. I also buy for the drivers, not the crossovers.

As to your use of phase plugs in the mids - my estimation is you use them because the drivers you purchase for the kit has them installed by the mfg. I would guess Seas, but the tweeters remind me of Vifa drivers. The normal reasons for phase plugs are not being used here, unless you care to explain further.

Dispersion is a non-issue, with the low crossover. Losing the weight of the dustcap to lower cone weight may be the reason, but you dont have enough power in your system to really drive these hard enough for it to matter. Besides, since the system is designed to work hand-in-hand with a sub, are you using a high-pass on the mid - or are you allowing it to roll off naturally? Cooling shouldnt be any benefit, as again, you are not providing enough power to the driver that any benefits would be seen.

if I am missing the reason, and I assume I am, please point it out. I have ran drivers with and without, but I just dont see the reason in this application.

So, while I may not be a customer, care to have a discussion about your products on an audio level, rather than a sales level?

If not, I wish you the best in selling your kits. There is always value in plug/n/play upgrades.

 

I believe he is comparing the raw cost of the kit. Your $1500 kit vs their ~$600 kit. I dont know that is fair to compare a raw kit + DIY install vs a dealer install.

As to the cost differences - Without know what drivers are used in the IA system, I would guess they are better than the Alpine. Alpine has not been too impressive over the past few years.

Also, the Alpine crossovers look like garbage.

The Alpine amp is probably 25-35 WPC, and is much cheaper than the Arc in the IA kit.

Essentially, it will probably be an upgrade, and probably worth the $$ for an inexpensive upgrade. But the quality difference is also apparent. Even more so depending on the drivers the IA kit uses.

 

Not quite.

As far as I can tell from the IA web site (and I'll note in passing that I'm not an audio expert), the SoundStage requires a sub to perform properly. You can use their sub, or another sub, but a sub is required. Since my coupé doesn't have a sub, I included that in the cost.

Since I have a significant enough hearing loss that I wear binaural hearing aids, I'm not expecting a miracle. I just want more volume without tons of distortion, that's all. Having read a couple of threads about folks' problems when installing the Alpine kit as a DIY, I'm liking the IA kit over the Alpine because the install seems better thought out, and because it includes a sub.

 

Sounds like you know what you want, and that the IA may be a good option for you.

 

In general I don't engage in these situations. There is no shortage of folks who have minimal experience and/or have spent some time on DIYMA or wherever who then believe that are experts and want to run around trying to throw around what they think they know. Knowing a bit of terminology doesn't make someone a transducer or systems engineer, and those of us who are professional engineers can spot it immediately. The gaps in your knowledge are obvious from your post.

If your goal is to learn - and if it is I commend you - then I recommend you move away from internet message boards and go join AES. Pay the extra for the library subscription and start reading - for less than $500/year you'll start to get a real education, even without a background in physics. If your goal is to simply be combative and try to show that you know something, well, there's nothing here for you.

I'll touch briefly on your questions, and then I'm done. I have limited time, and I can't spend it covering questions the average customer doesn't care about:


We run various Klippel tests on all drivers and samples throughout the development process. I've certainly seen the ones we've run.

I'm not going to discuss the enclosure with you, but I'll make it simple - there is no commercially available woofer that will physically fit in the enclosure that has suitable parameters. It's not available for sale except as a full system. If you want an enclosure there are other options.

Regarding the phase plug, there are a lot of potential reasons to use or not use one. I'm not going to tell you why we've used it, but I'll point out that you've overlooked compression and pole geometry. Cooling is a design-specific issue - far lower power levels than this can have cooling issues. And you've got the power/weight issue backwards - it will always take more force to move a larger Mms, and there are a ton of other considerations there. This is just the beginning. Point is there are a tremendous amount of considerations/benefits/tradeoffs to be made with this and virtually every other aspect of transducer design. They aren't relevant to anyone other than the transducer and systems engineers.


If your goal was/is to genuinely learn, then I hope I've been helpful. If it was something else, then I'm done with the discussion.

 

Ken,

The Soundstage definitely does not require the sub, but you will get the best performance with it. In the same way that a good set of monitors can be perfectly listenable on their own but benefit dramatically from the addition of a subwoofer.

In terms of price I was comparing the installed price of our 3-way front upgrade (the $1500 Soundstage + ~$360 install) to the Alpine 3-way front upgrade, which IIRC folks were paying $1400-1600 installed.

 

Ahh, nothing like a little condescension with lunch .

Nope, not an engineer. Dont think I claimed to be, or even implied it.

again, best of luck selling your kit. Ill go back to dealing with "transducer and systems engineers" that are willing to help expand knowledge for others.


Have a great day!

 

Kevin is a smart man and NOT giving away his company secrets is one of the smartest moves he has ever made. I would be willing to bet he knows more about this stuff than you ever will. And if you ever do know that much and have your own business you will understand his reluctance to give away the secrets. If you dont your business will not last.

With all the terms you slung around you sure sounded like it was implied. The attitude I get from your writings thru this conversation has been "I know better than you". That does not go over well here on NAM.

Good luck in making you MINI sound better. I hope you gain some experience in doing so.

 

Great post Schat...

Thanks for the business advise. Ill need it, right? Just as soon as I am done with the others...

What type of engineer do I sound like?

I have no doubt the MCS will sound better when I am done. Any suggestions on things I should be gaining experience on?

- Best regards -

 

No offense, but everyone is asking a guy trying to sell his products about other manufactures equipment. Are you really expecting to get an unbiased answer? That would be like asking your mini dealer what the best volkswagon is.

 

Would replacing the front Hi-Fi woofers with the HK front woofers, while retaining the Hi-Fi amp, provide improved base response?

 

Anyone know the mounting depth on the 6x9's? I think I asked a while ago but no one answered... seems like this board is more for people that are here all the time and less for people that have no "status"... ugh

 

Getting more bass would be better accomplished by either adding more power or larger speakers. replacing one speaker for another isn't usually the best way to get more bass.

 

Is there any impact to BluTooth by installing the Soundstage system?


I love what I'm seeing and reading here and on the website. My only thing is I my clubman is 4 weeks old. The idea of ripping it apart in my garage makes me want to vomit. It looks like a pretty intense install.

Anybody have experiences they could post? Up until a month ago I was driving a 94 Camry and I had to pull the door panels out several times to replace the window regulator. All those clips never wanted to go back cleanly and were old and brittle. Traumatic memories....

 

I just said F it and ripped mine apart.... it was fun and sounds amazing.... i would do it again without any hesitation....

And as far as I know there would be no impact on the Bluetooth as the only thing you tie into is the outgoing signal to the speakers which tees-off to the new amp and a remote turn-on wire for the amp. I have the I-POD interface and it still works just fine, no one, not even the dealer will know you installed it unless they really look. I relocated the sub-woofer volume/controller so it wasn’t just stuck in the dash nook thingy place...lol... and to me looks a little more discreet where it is now…. And I think it’s easier to access and passengers can’t mess with it.

Here are some pix of my install:
So far everyone freaks when they hear it, even guys that have MINIs with over $3000 invested in the fronts alone.... plus they have by-passed the factory radio which i would have never done.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/digital...7629768965607/

Enjoy!!!

 

I'll add a few things to what Stu said...(thanks for responding Stu!)

First, no, there is no impact to the Bluetooth.

Second, you'll be surprised at just how easily the car comes apart and goes back together - as long as you have good instructions! Automakers have gotten really good at designing parts and panels that line up properly and go together easily. In addition to simple experience gained over time, the use of very good 3D CAD packages has really contributed to this. The difference between a 90's era vehicle and today's can be pretty dramatic.

A new vehicle is also much easier to work with. As you mention, plastic panels, clips, etc, get brittle over time. On a new vehicle you'll find that you are far less likely to break clips.

Of course, even if you were to break a clip, they are available for less than a $1 at your local dealer or internet parts store.

 

And look, Kevin (the owner and designer) is still keeping up with all the comments that get posted about the system, so that should tell you something also. Kevin was great with the whole install, any questions or concerns I had during the install he was available either right away or within a few hours. I really don’t know what I did without this system,, oh, I know… I listened to the exhaust.. Because the stock stereo was so horrible to listen to.

 

That sounds about right.

It was very cool to document your install. And I like the rest of the pictures on your Flickr site. You car looks very much like mine with all the CF JCW bits.

 

so... My Clubman is now 10 weeks old or so now. I ordered the IA system literally within the week I bought the car. I've been an engineer for years and know that more than 50% of the value of any installation is the *knowledge* that goes into the install. After looking at the installation manual online (its available publicly) and understanding the balancing of parts to get a working combination, I determined that the system was a good value for what you get (again, its the work that made the install easy that was the value). If you look only at the cost of the parts, yea, you can buy them cheaper, but then try and get everything to match, get the adapter rings for the door speaker mounts, the custom "plugs" to splice into existing wiring without cutting anything, etc.

So with all that said... Its a rather easy install. I would recommend however that you DO have all the tools listed prior to actually doing real work. I was short a couple Torix tools (T50 I believe) that I thought I could get around. Turns out not only could I not, but I needed a T50 with some real muscle around it in a tight corner. I'd say I spent the MOST time on the job removing the four bolts that held the passenger seat down. Probably 2 of the 6 hours it took for the job was spent messing with the bolts on the seat (and swearing, etc). Since it was my only car, of course once I got the seat disconnected, I couldn't just hop in it to go down to Home Depot to get the right tool... Blah.

Additionally either I routed the cables the wrong way or did something wrong as I ended up short on speaker wire. I was able to determine however that I could "jumper" from the left tweeter crossover to the left door crossover rather than run two sets of cable all the way back to the amp (checked line loss, etc and turns out it didn't matter, the crossovers filtered out the crosstalk anyway). That was probably my only real modification to the instructions and only because I ran out of wire (again, I think I routed something the wrong way and wasn't paying attention when I started cutting).

Where the amp goes under the right front seat, I've found out is slightly different on different clubman's based on differing options and years. Ultimately its still the same space, just different "inserts" that you have to work out of there (ie, Styrofoam inserts to hold the carpet up).

Look under your passenger seat. If the carpet goes all the way from the front to the back without a 6x8 piece of vented plastic (mine didn't), be sure to mention that as they will actually supply you with a factory piece for those cars that DO have the piece. I had to have mine shipped separately as I forgot to mention it in the first place.

I checked the power draw on the amp and there was no need to do the following, but I added a 1farad cap in the same space as the amp for when I'm really cranking the amp. the pull isn't that bad but I had the car open, the seat out, and a cap on the shelf... it doesn't hurt so in it went.

Was the sound noticeable? absolutely. Was I pleased with the results? Definitely. Again, as an engineer, I can appreciate things like insuring the dimensions of the door crossover modules actually fit in the space allotted with motion dampening foam to hold them in place. Adapter cables so that you can undo everything you've done if you choose and return the car just as it was before you started. but you're unlikely to want to.

I'm still playing with the crossover on the bass. I used the recommended settings which sound pretty good, but I've found some stations on XM that are really trying my 60-90hz range...

Next item is to replace the stereo itself...

Marcos

 

Nice summary post. I'd like to post my question here as I can't find where anyone else has had an issue with using Posi-Taps on the x15 pin one connector as the source for the remote power signal back to the amp.

The above link is a picture of the Blue Posi-Tap I used to connect my remote amp wire. I get no sound though. I did think to check current at the battery and ground connectors of my amp (KAC-628 Kenwood). I get 12V reading from voltage meter but the amp won't turn on when door opens or key fob is inserted (radio set to on). I do hear sound from the rear speakers, but those aren't redirected in any way. 25A fuse is intact on the Amp. I am wondering if I should be using a different Posi-Tap or perhaps my remote wire is too long? Any hints on how to trouble shoot no sound from the amp would be greatly appreciated.

 

Just answered my question. I think the posi-tap was not piercing the x15 pin 1 wire correctly. Either that or the remote wire didn't make good contact on its end of the connector. Blue wire is intact and passes power to the amp. Tested that by pulling it out and touching it to the positive battery screw on the amp. so the amp works and i just need to figure out how to make the posi-tap work. Anyone else have trouble with these?

 

Be careful, tapping into wires and connecting them to other electronics without being certain of what they are can get you into some very expensive trouble fast!!

In order to power up, your amplifier needs a switched (turns off and on) +12V signal to the "remote" terminal. So, that's what you are looking for - i.e. you would want to test the wire you are connecting to for +12 Volts with your multimeter (you are interested in voltage, not current).

In the MINI, this signal (called RAD_ON) is present on the solid black ~20AWG wire coming from pin 1 of the X15 connector. If in doubt, verify the pin number, and if still in doubt, verify with your multimeter.

A couple thoughts:

1) That Posi-tap is too large - that's a 14-16ga connector. You need the PTA1824. With that connector, you'll keep missing the wire you are trying to tap.

2) It's hard to tell from the picture, but that wire looks WAY too large to be the correct wire. Are you sure it is coming from the X15 connector? There are several black wires coming off the X15, but none of them are that large, and there is only one solid black (the others have colored stripes).

3) Judging by the kinks/bends in the wires of the X9331 harness you assembled, it looks like you may have used less stranded (i.e. fewer, thicker conductors) wire. This is less flexible and more prone to give you trouble, especially at your crimps. Did you use the correct crimping tool (those pins/sockets require an "F" crimp from the correct die and a specific amount of pressure)? Several of those ground wires on the X9331 carry large amounts of current, and the high resistance at a poor crimp can create enough heat to start a fire (there is an old post on this forum where someone posted a picture of what can happen). At the very least, if you don't have the proper crimping tool (the Tyco hand tool is about $500), then carefully solder them.

 

Hi Kevin, Thank you for responding. Very kind of you and I appreciate the quick response!

I will have to double check the pin 1 wire. That could be the whole issue. This black wire is coming off of the black connector which held the x9331. Thus, I assumed I was holding the x15 and taping the only solid black wire. I'll update this thread with a new picture with my results. All the other wires are smaller and multi-colored. I have no problem rechecking all of this...looking forward to it actually, because I want to solve this.

As for the harness. Yes, those are stranded but very stiff wires. So, having read your posts and the fire incident post too, I did solder everyone of those connections. The tyco hand tool would have been great. I was maticulous though. Under magnification and after an hour or so, I did use solder for every connection in the proper area of the male and female pins.

The Posi-Taps came in an assorted set at 3 different sizes and I used the blue which fit the remote amp wire perfectly. (I know you know, but for others that read, here are the sizes:
Red (Wire sizes: 20-22 awg, 0.8 - 0.6 mm Dia.)
Blue (Wire sizes: 14-18 awg, 1.6 - 1.0 mm Dia.)
Yellow (Wire sizes: 10-14 awg, 2.5 - 1.6 mm Dia.))

Since the Red was too small and the Yellow too big, I really thought I had it made with Blue.

Kevin, reading your reply makes me think I really have the possibility of not tapping the right wire, of for my Car, that the Posi-Tap should be different. (but the red won't fit around the remote blue wire at all...I tried that originally).

I had re positioned the Posi-Tap further down this black wire but no joy. I'll recheck the position, connector and wires tonight to see what my mistake was...and then I'll update.

 

When you locate the x15 Pin 1 wire, is it coming off of the side of the adapter that has a white plastic lock (as in the picture, although a bit out of focus)? Let me know if that makes sense.

If you used the other side, I'll have to dig further up in the harness, but I didn't think this would matter if the wire is passed through the x15 anyway. If this doesn't apply, let me know. Just thinking this through from desk at lunch time...