The electric companies have a few different payment plans. How much do you really save (to charge a mini e from 0- 100%), by changing to an off peak/peak TOU or to a separate electric car meter. I have also looked into solar panels to lower my usage from tier 5 to the tier 3 level.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Hi Greg,

Not sure who your utility is. For SCE customers the rates are here:

http://www.sce.com/AboutSCE/Regulato...ntialrates.htm

To get the kWh charge you would add the total delivery charge to the URG charge (some customers will pay the DWR charge instead for some or all of their power) It takes 35 kWh for a full charge. For myself my marginal rate is normally the 3rd or 4th tier so .27 or .33 where as the off peak TOU rate is about .17 (separate meter) and the normal TOU rate is .20 or .17 depedning on the rate schedule, which you would trade off against the peak rate of up to .45 depending on season.

Hope this helps,

- Scott

 

Here in N NJ, with PSE&G, I don't believe we have off-peak rates or anything. For the pastyear, my electric bill has been about 600-800 kWh per month, and averages about $0.18/kWh. Just signed up for the "green alternative" where I pay more and it goes into a fund that invests in the 4 companies doing solar/wind/geothermal power in NJ, and that will add a straight $0.02/kWh to bill. So sounds like our energy costs here are closer to what people in CA pay for off-peak rates?

Tim
http://MyEMini.wordpress.com

 

Last year my average was 6.7 cents per kWh and only used 9800 kw. Never go out of tier 1. Need no A/C here in Santa Monica, CA. No TOU meter for me it would make my cost higher.

 

here in central NJ we have JCP&L, we have offpeak hours (thats when my hot water heater kicks on ) you must have em up in NNJ.

 

Thank you for the replies. I am in Laguna Beach with SCE and have a spa and pool which puts me into tier 4 or 5 most months. I am thinking of changing to an off peak/peak TOU plan.

Hopefully my 275 sq ft of solar panels (scheduled for mid July installation) will help out.

I took delivery of #124 Saturday and can't believe how fun it is. It is hard to be conservative with the battery charge. I'm 51 going on 16.

 

That's what you're supposed to be doing! The whole point was to make a fun, futuristic electric car, and to defy the stereotype that hybrids/electrics are boring!

Glad you are enjoying it, wish I could afford it myself.

 

Carlsbad, Ca

Our rate program with SDG&E is evtou2. This rate structure is around 16 cents between midnight and 7am and then during the peak periods of the day it's 32 cents.

What that means for us is that for every kilowatt of energy I generate during the day I get to use two in the early morning hours for the same price

If the car needs 26kkwh to chage at night, I need to generate just 13kwh during the day to be cost neutral.

It does not require a second meter installation as the single smart meter does all the calculations.

My experiance to date (515 miles in #183) is about 3.25 miles per kwh. 8kwhs gives me a range of 26 miles, about the same that a regular mini would get real world out of a gallon of gas.

So,

gas mini, 26 miles=$3.15 and climbing for a gallon of gas=$3.15
Mini-E, 26 miles= 8 times 16cents per kwh =$1.28

A 1.1kwh solar p.v. system that generates the 1850 peak KWH , generation is at 32cents per kwh you would need to generate only 1850kwhs to pay for the 3700kw off peak
Essentially after 3.5 years you are driving on free gas for the rest of your life.

If I am conservative and expect just 25 years of life for the solar P.V. the story looks like this:

Gas Mini,

12,000 miles 26mpg at $3,50 a gallon of gas= $1650 per year
25 years of drivng, $41,250 (assumes zero price chage)
with 8% annual escalator $76.500

Yearly average $3060 for gas

-----------------------------------

Electric powered Mini-E.

12,000 miles, 3.25 kwh per mile is 3700 kwhs @.16cents = $592
25 years of driving, $14,800 (assumes zero price change)
with 8% annual escalator $ $24,200

Yearly average $968 for electricity

------------------------------------

Solar electric powered Mini-E

12,000 miles, 3.25kw per mile you need to generate 1850 kwhs annually at peak hours to pay for 3700kwhs used at off peak. This is a 1.1 kwh solar pv system at a cost of $5500.
25 years of driving, $5,500 (guarentees no price change)
no escalation as the sun does not raise it's prices

Yearly average $220 for Solar P.V electricity

______________________________________

Conclusion,

cost of fuel over 25 years:

Gas is 300% as expensive as utility purchased electricity

Homeowner generated solar is 7% of the cost of Gas.

Cheers
peder

 

Thank you for the cost breakdown and solar panel discussion. 8kwh = 1 gal gas was exactly the answer I was looking for.

 

Interesting comparison, Peder. I would like to get a PV system at home eventually and your numbers do make one think. Looks like you need to negotiate a 24 year lease extension

 

Go Ducks.
Scott,

That's the hard part that I don't have fiqured out yet . saying goodby to the Mini-E in just a year.

I hope to be electrons only from this point forward. We'll see what happens in the future.

Cheers
Peder

 

So, I'm a little curious. With all the problems, and if you can afford $850 per month, why don't you build your own?

It isn't that hard. We're converting a 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman. It should have better range and certainly better cargo space - it just has more room in it to begin with. Converting a car to electric drive is not precisely rocket science. Components are readily available.

The process can be a great deal of fun itself. Many guys are doing conversions in their garage. Great father/son project. You control the time you spend on it, the money you spend on it, and the results. It's very satisfying work.

Once the ICE engine is out, it is not like "working on a car" in the traditional sense. Especially doing a new or low mileage car, it is much cleaner work. It's basically an exercise in small problem solving and component selection and their is a ton of information on the web.

For the Mini specifically, we are publishing a series of videos on Youtube and our web site on the steps necessary to do a kind of upscale version of the Mini that we think will be much better than the BMW effort - they kind of rushed a design using AC Propulsion's drop-in package. But you can more or less follow along and use any drive components you like and can afford. We did a Porsche 356 Speedster using a $1700 Netgain Warp 9 motor. It does 95 miles per hour and 100 miles on a charge.

Yes, it takes several months of part time effort. And the components, mostly from low volume entrepreneurs, are relatively expensive. But there are a number of advantages:

1. You get to keep the car, and yes it will last 25 years. You will wear out four interiors before your drive train gives up the ghost.

2. In building it, you learn tremendously more about its care and operation. You'll understand regen and how to adjust it to suit yourself, why temperature is a problem and how to devise cooling strategies that work, battery care and range issues, and so much more.

3. You're a real "pioneer." Leasing a car from BMW doesn't precisely qualify as Davy Crocket style frontiersmanship. If you want to make a mark, innovation is more powerful than raw consumption.

4. It's a learning experience. Do you believe that electric cars can have a serious impact on our dependence on foreign oil, emissions, the NOISE level of our urban environment, and can actually be a viable alternative to the status quo in the automotive industry? Well that's great. But your beliefs are largely based on hearsay. If you build your own, you'll have a much greater knowledge base to back up those beliefs. And you'll actually come to understand some things - like why it will be a looong time before true plug-in electric vehicles can be manufactured and sold by traditional automobile manufacturers. It's not an evil plot. It's a technical issue. And you'll run smack into it in building and operating your own electric Mini.

5. It's fun. I grossly underestimated this when I started. I didn't even think I LIKED fun. But it's fun. And the EV Grin is significantly more pronounced when you're driving down the road in a car you put together and made drive with your own hands.

The ECONOMICS. Sorry guys. You can work that 4 function calculator to death. You PAY to play in electric cars. They don't save money. You can already buy a lot of gas for what you're paying on that lease. The same holds true on the DIY conversion side. True, I don't pay a lease. But I've acquired a lot of tools along the way (an electric lift is highly recommended).

The gig is not saving money. It is in demonstrating viability. Early adopters and disruptive technological innovation are always on the wrong end of the expense curve. But if people knew about these cars, they would want one. And if enough want, the economies of scale eventually do come into play. I was one of the $650 iPhone guys. Now they are less than $300 and headed lower. It is the natural order of the universe.

What it is REALLY about is a political statement. I don't want to dance to the tune of the coercive marketing forces out there in our government, our automotive manufacturers, and particularly in the oil companies. They play our population like a violin. Remember when oil was $20 per barrel and gasoline was $2.00. Everyone is asking why it went to $4. Wrong question. When oil went to $140, why didn't gasoline go to $14?

There is tremendous satisfaction in taking control of your own mobility, and driving past gas stations with a smirk. If you convert your own car, and charge using electricity from your house, you are in control. Gas prices go up? Drive the MINI-ME more. Gas prices go down, take the Escalade to the lake. But YOU get to chose, because you HAVE a choice. More properly, you BUILT a choice.

In reading these posts, I see a lot of angst "wishing" BMW would make it all better, and even some resentment when they "give away" cars to fleet entities. BMW has got their hands full of being BMW, it's a full time job and not one I aspire to. But I think they've built a great little car in the Mini Cooper, and it is an ideal candidate for conversion to electric drive. The entire message of EV conversion is to STOP BEING A VICTIM. Be one of the players in this game.

A kid just of school in New Zealand built an EV for $4,000. He's so broke he had to sell the EV to pay his utility bill. But he did it.

I'm happy to share my techniques, but understand that I wind up with $70K in a Mini Cooper my way (not far off on the $850 per month actually). But BMW did too. But you can find many ways to do it for less than I have. For example, I use TWO Brusa NLG-513 chargers to charge the batteries (about $7200 total). Chargers can be had for much less. BTW, the thing on your wall is NOT your charger, whatever BMW told you. It's just a 240AC plug and you can put them in yourself for about $75 in parts. Your CHARGER converts the AC to DC and applies it to your batteries. In yours, it is in the big gold box up front.

I applaud all that BMW has done with the Mini-E. But for those with problems with all of it, you do have an option. You can build your own. And you can actually improve on what BMW has done. If you think that AC motor is fun with PRND, try it with a six speed Getrag transmission and a Quaif automatic torque biasing differential.

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me

 

Oh, and Jeff....

No matter how much of a pain in the *** you might be, you can't be kicked off my program....you're the only one in it unless you can talk a neighbor into helping you out.

Jack Rickard

 

Just a little fun on the cost of electricity.

Assuming you will be driving the next 25 years on electricity and that the car you are driving in gets 3 to 4 miles per KWH. the cost of solar fuel works out to an equivilant of $0.45 a gallon fixed over 25 years for most of North America. Sorry cold weater folks in the northern most states

To purchase a solar P.V. system to power an electric car cost the same as purchasing fuel for 3.5 to 5 years at $3.50 a gallon.

Any guesses on what gas will be in 25 years? my guess is in the $15 a gallon range, assuming the Chinese and the Indians get busy consuming.

We installed our fuel station last week to augment our existing home power plant. The result is a 7.5kw P.V. system that provides 12,000kwh annually.

The home uses 8000kwh, and the Gem-e4 and Mini-E use about 3700kwh to drive 12,000 miles on an annual basis. Daily that works out to 22kwh for the home and 10kwh for the car.

Sunpower has a neat app for the IPhone and our website to follow the production. I'm working with SDG&E to get their smart meter smarter so that I can also follow my consumption.


Click here to view the real time production of the system

Don't know what my next car will be after the Mini-E, but I know it will have a cord on it!

Operating cost can be just as expensive as purchashing cost.

Renewable clean energy + the electric car reduces operating cost and magnifies the enviromental strenths of the electric car.

Cheers
Peder
#183

 

Thanks Jack.
I watched your videos last week whilst on vacation. I'm a big fan, how can I not be. I would love to convert a MINI to electric myself as you are. I would need to find some more garage space and budget time and money to do it. I've worked on my own cars all my life and I'm sure I could do it. I would want to use NiMH batteries. There range would be outstanding. You can get them from Gold Peak North America. They are better than Li-Ions.

Yes, I'm not in it for the economics that much. But I did enjoy the 3 years that I didn't buy gas or spend any money on repairs and maintenance while driving the EV1. At $424 a month the EV1 lease was a huge savings at the end of the day. Of course, for the conversion money, I could just go Tesla Roadster. It is a very tempting ride. The craziest car I've been in. FAST and FUN.
I may convert my Prius to plugin electric using Plug In Conversions Corp's kit. It will allow the Prius to run at 70 mph as an EV with at least a 25 mile range. Then it goes back to being a regular Prius. Not as sexy but easily doable. In the long run I hoping the Volt will be good. I saw the production car at the Plug In America fundraiser party last Sept. I is very cool. High tech and quite running.

Thanks for the compliment Jack. I've always been on my own program I guess.

Keep in touch.

Jeff

 

Peder, your numbers work for me.

I tend to think that electricity in general will become cheaper and cheaper as batteries do too.

Yes, there needs to be a change in perception as to the total operation cost of a car. As you can see by the cash for clunkers program people can't resist a cheap deal. Even if it may cost a lot to run and maintain that cheap car in the long run. Americans still think they need a new car every few years. That ruins the BEV economic model a little.

But I can see us getting there as people like you spread the truth.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

As I said, we are doing a pretty deluxe Mini at about $70k That includes a brand new car at $32K and very low mileage units are on eBay now at $22K-$25K (yes, Clubman S). It also includes a $3000 set of Brembo Brakes, a $1500 Quaif differential, and a lot of stuff you just don't have to spend to make an electric Mini. If you forego the brakes and differential, I doubt you could tell the difference frankly.

The Tesla Roadster is not exactly $109K guys. That didn't work out for them. If you get just the basics in the original Tesla, it's now over $132K.

It's a great car. Lotus is coming out with a new model EVORA that is remarkably similar to what they are building for Tesla. We are looking hard at doing an "open source" Tesla anyone could build from available components. It won't be cheap. But it probably will be considerably less than $132K.

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me.

PS. I've pretty much got a battery lab in the garage. I don't like NIMH sorry. But then I don't like the small form factor batteries in your Mini-E or your Teslas either. I'm a little picky about fires and things, and batteries who have to have maintenance charges. Take a look at some of the Iron Phosphate chemistry LiFePo4s now available. They are much more appropriate for vehicle applications I think. And I love it that an oil company steals a battery technology and sits on it to prevent electric cars, and it turns out not to matter. On the meter, the LiFePo4s are simply better in all respects to the NIMH. So Exxon can go blow.

In my unqualified, but nonetheless strongly held opinion, trying to bend the will of Corporate America to your needs is a pointless exercise. Go the direction YOU want and get there yourself. They will scramble around mightily to scurry around and get out in front of that soon enough. Worse, they will then claim to have invented it. I've been through all this with AT&T, Microsoft, Charter, and the FCC over the Internet thing. It's just the nature of the beast.

Electric cars will arrive on the back of a grassroots movement to convert existing cars to electric drive, along with a bevy of truly pioneering guys who build them from scratch. Elon Musk is certainly among them. The Aptera is a good effort.

As to hybrids like the Volt and the Fisker, it is perfectly true that you can successfullly saddle a cow and indeed, a mare may be milked. But its a funny way to ride to an odd breakfast, and you're liable to alienate both the bovine and equine nations in the process. A hybrid inherits the complexities and disadvantages of both systems, while failing to provide the real benefits of either.

But then I drive about 35 miles a day - mostly testing electric cars.


Jack Rickard

 

Interesting discussion..........

One of the problems I have with the whole electric car idea is range. Here in the midwest, we can easily drive more than 100 miles across town and back (just as you can in LA, I know) and having to stop for 24 hours to "refuel" my car every 100 miles is not a workable arrangement.

And what happens when it's not 500 cars but 5 million that are tapping the grid each night for juice, especially on a very hot summer night when everyone in the country has their A/C set on high?

I think the hybrid or fuel cell idea still makes more sense for most of the country. For those who live in crowded urban core and don't drive that far - mass transit makes even more sense - but since our gummint doesn't think that way, electric is a viable alternative.

I'm glad you MINI E drivers are enjoying the experiment, but I don't find it viable execpt under very limited and consequently limiting circumstances. I also think all electric is an option for rich folks who will always have an extra car or two in the garage, but not viable for Joe 6 pack......

You're also completely ignoring the impact on the environment of coal, gas and oil fired power plants in your calculations - that stuff's not free either.....I'm not saying you're wrong to want and use electric transportation, I'm just saying I don't think it's usefully scalable.....

Just as the folks who tout nuclear plants refuse to count the cost of remediationg the plant and the waste when they calculate the cost of KWH from nuke plants, you can't just ignore the down the road consequences for your choice anymore than we can for using gasoline.

 

Hi Jack,

interesting to read about your 356 conversion. I have a 1963 Fiat 1200 Convertible and the ICE constantly overheats and needs probably $1000 into it before it runs again. So this is the right time to convert !!! The car weighs less than 2000lbs. In general, what parts do I need for a conversion: I need the batteries, the motor (like the Warp9) and a controller. What else would I need and can you point me to a conversion website? Obviously each conversion is different. The nice thing about the Fiat is that it has a big engine compartment and a big trunk, and it is a light car to begin with. Brakes probably wouldn't need improvement, but what's your sense on the weight differential between ICE and electric motor including the batteries if I am shooting for a everyday driving 100 mile range.

Best

Klaus

 

I would divide the components basically into the following:

1. Battery system - 100 mile range requires LiFePo4
2. Charging System - not the box on the wall. The box in the car that converts AC into DC at your total pack voltage.
3. Drive Train - basically an electric motor with adapter plate and coupler to mate to your transmission.
4. DC-DC converter. You still need 12vdc to operate all your normal car electrical appliances. You no longer have an alternator. A DC-DC converter converts your pack voltage down to 12vdc to supply these items.
5. Controller/Inverter. Converts accelerator inputs into power to the motor.
6. Environmental items. Pieces to complement heating and air conditioning in your cabin.
7. Battery mounting.

Item 7 represents about HALF of the effort in converting a car believe it or not. Finding locations for batteries is a geometric puzzle. Then the batteries need to be secured. Picture the car rolling over and over down a hill like in the movies. You don't want batteries bouncing around and shorting out against various things. In the case of LiFePo4 cells, they come as individual cells. You can gang them together like lead acid batteries in groups of four. But more commonly, they will take up less space if you build a custom "box" to contain the individual cells in one or two large groups. At times, this can require cooling as the batteries can generate heat. You often have to cut out sections of flooring or the bottom of the trunk. The boxes need to be supported by some structure. I generally like to line them with Tivar so I don't short a wrench to the box. Etc. Etc. It really is half the effort of the conversion.

Some other small items:

CONTACTOR - basically a large relay, but of surprising cost - often $200-$500, applying power to the controller and other systems when you "start" your car.

DISCONNECT - a rather heavy duty off/on switch. It basically disconnects your series pack in the middle effectively deactivating it so you can perform maintenance. In the Mini, we actually have this where the driver can reach it in an emergency. I've never needed to.

FUSING. You will often have one or more high current fuses in the system to blow in event of a major malfunction.

CABLING AND TERMINALS. I use high quality welding cable because it is much more flexible. You crimp terminal lugs onto the cable ends with a large crimping tool, and generally put some heat shrink tubing around it with a heat gun to make cables. But the expense is significant, a couple of bucks per foot anyway. In the Speedster I actually used 2/0 welding cable because the currents were quite high. In the Mini, we have a much higher system voltage, about three times as high as the Speedster. So this allows LOWER current flows. We're using 1 AWG welding cable. Much smaller, more flexible, easier to work with.

I get a lot of stuff from Metric Mind http://www.metricmind.com and EVcomponents http://www.evcomponents.com. But I also buy a LOT of piece parts, aluminum, heat shrink, cabling, tubing, tivar, etc on eBay - much of it at dramatic discount to new parts prices. Kilovac relays are used as contactors for example, and I bought two of the best for $190 each the other day. Sounds expensive. They are over $500 each from the EV parts sites. eBay is your friend. And I've actually seen motors and controllers on eBay as well. I bought a Zilla 2K there a few weeks back. They are basically unobtainable.

Your Fiat 1200 project sounds like it could be a great little e-car. Go for it.

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me

 

I installed a time of use (TOU) meter that is dedicated to MINI E #224 only. Attached is the first SCE bill I have received that does not include installation charges for the TOU meter. It is very enlightening to me to see the extra charges that are "piled on" the the basic $.10/kWh factor that most of us use when calculating the cost of electricity, resulting in a bottom line cost of $.22/kWh.

The math for #224 works out as follows:

274 kWh - total electricity used to date
762 - total miles traveled to date
.36 kWh/mile - kWh/mile
$.08/mile - electricity cost/mile

 

This is very interesting. 360 wH per mile is extraordinarily high for a car of that size. And kind of an eye opener at to what is to come here in the midwest. We're paying 8.3 cents per kWh currently.
I understand Obama desperately wants us to pay California prices, but we'd rather not. Our air conditioning needs are somewhat different.

I would expect the Mini to come in somewhere around 270 wH per mile. As yours is on the meter, not on the car, it indicates a rather hugely inefficient charger in the AC Propulsion "gold box." That' or you're driving 120 mph.

Jack Rickard

 

A 100 mile range at 120MPH would be sweet, but my day is more like 40MPH around town

 

Funny... that's the EXACT same thing I was thinking... just not in so many words.

 

Hi Dave,

I agree with the "it may not work for you in the middle of the country with long drives comment". I think bevs will make sense for most and erevs or hybrids for those that need to drive more than 150 miles a day. The steep price payed by us early adopters will pave the way for lower prices for all.

What is the down the road cost for driving an electric car that is powered by solar, such as mine? www.heronshouse.com or by wind? If the true cost of extracting refining and shipping oil were factored in and the subsidies for oil were reduced to the same level as for renewables, you would be staring at $5.00 to $6.00 a gallon for gas.

Using renewables coupled with electric or mostly electric cars is the sustainable future.

The only question in my mind is how fast can we get there for everyone.

Personal independence
National independence and security
Wealth building
Cleaner enviroment.

Cheers
peder