MINI Filmmakers Rights--BEWARE

[OctaneGuy]

Those of us who love making movies with our MINIs and displaying them on the forums have a responsibility. It's the same argument that anyone in the television business has had to deal with for decades and that's trying to tell a story without having the viewer attempt to duplicate what they see on screen and then getting sued for it.

This fear of liability extends as far as the unreadable fine print on car commercials indicating that they are showing professional drivers on closed courses.

With NAM enforcing a policy on no street racing or excessive speed, exactly how far does this go? Does that mean that posting a little clip from the Italian Job where they are racing through the flood channels or maybe even the subway would be wrong, not from the sense that it's copyright infringement, but rather it might promote reckless driving? Oh but wait, it's only a movie!

I will be the first to admit that this post was prompted by the removal of my Malibu DVD from the NAM store. I can understand NAM's position, and that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is this:

To what extent as filmmakers are we permitted to make something more exciting? We all know that line crossing is dangerous and god forbid you capture that on video and show it to the masses!

But come on, squealing tires around a corner means excessive speed? Uhm, if you believe that, I'll be happy to show you what bald Yoko's do at Streets of Willow going 40MPH around a curve on my 10th lap in 100 degree weather.

Crossing painted lines on a one way road with no cross traffic and where the entire group is in radio contact?

What about speeding up the video to increase excitement and fight boredom? Have you ever watched a video of a MINI on a public road that is seen from the same camera angle for 15 minutes? It's boooooring. Now track footage is different. There are many variables changing all the time. Will the driver lose control? Will he overtake the Viper ahead of him? Will he get passed? But 30 minutes of this footage with no outside influences can get downright boring as well.

When I shot the M7 Promo video, there were multiple places that I sped up the video to increase the pace and maintain continuity from scene to scene. One of the last shots was done at slow speed and sped up in post because the way we shot it, it couldn't have been done any other way.

The number of people shooting and editing MINI video for public consumption is extremely small. Right now, I can count on one hand the number of people that have been doing this for the past 3 years. Maybe what we need is a shift in content. It's hard making good videos, and maybe driving videos are a thing of the past, but since some NAM members are so bent on infringing on a creative filmmakers rights, I don't see a very bright future for us.

If we aren't allowed to enhance reality to make it more enjoyable then "hey why even go watch a movie?" I mean, maybe this wasn't known, but you do realize that even "reality tv" is completely edited to the point of "changing reality" just to make it more enjoyable.

Exactly where does the line get drawn? Please feel free to chime in with your own thoughts.

[qwertmonkey]

I'm with you the whole way. Since most of us here on NAM arent minors, and, in the eyes of the gov't can make good choices, we should be able to watch and post "acts of crime" and know that its illegal! Did you get all that? Well, I know that NAM is trying to protect us, but it seems to have a very grey area.

[dave]

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

Those of us who love making movies with our MINIs and displaying them on the forums have a responsibility. It's the same argument that anyone in the television business has had to deal with for decades and that's trying to tell a story without having the viewer attempt to duplicate what they see on screen and then getting sued for it.

This fear of liability extends as far as the unreadable fine print on car commercials indicating that they are showing professional drivers on closed courses.

With NAM enforcing a policy on no street racing or excessive speed, exactly how far does this go? Does that mean that posting a little clip from the Italian Job where they are racing through the flood channels or maybe even the subway would be wrong, not from the sense that it's copyright infringement, but rather it might promote reckless driving? Oh but wait, it's only a movie!

The distinction I would make would be that clips from a Hollywood film are generall understood to be fiction, so I would be inclined to say that they would be granted a bit more leeway on the site, but even then depending on the context, that may be removed as well. Part of the reason for that extra leeway with that with a Hollywood production it is also understood that things like permitting and official road closures by off duty police were probably present at the time of filming.

Video shot by enthusiasts that in essense documents a fun run tends to fall in my mind more into the category of documentary or non-fiction (capturing real events on the open road). Things like radios may have helped make it safer to film, but to the viewer the end product still appears to have been filmed on open public roads.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

I will be the first to admit that this post was prompted by the removal of my Malibu DVD from the NAM store. I can understand NAM's position, and that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is this:

To what extent as filmmakers are we permitted to make something more exciting? We all know that line crossing is dangerous and god forbid you capture that on video and show it to the masses!

As I see it, the problems start when, regardless of the care that went into creating a safe environtment, enthusiast video is taken on a public road that shows behavior which is addressed by the site guidelines.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

But come on, squealing tires around a corner means excessive speed? Uhm, if you believe that, I'll be happy to show you what bald Yoko's do at Streets of Willow going 40MPH around a curve on my 10th lap in 100 degree weather.

Crossing painted lines on a one way road with no cross traffic and where the
entire group is in radio contact?

The problem with securing the area via radio contact is that as the video plays the activity that took place under the protection of radio contact can look reckless regardless of the care that went into checking cross traffic.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

What about speeding up the video to increase excitement and fight boredom? Have you ever watched a video of a MINI on a public road that is seen from the same camera angle for 15 minutes? It's boooooring. Now track footage is different. There are many variables changing all the time. Will the driver lose control? Will he overtake the Viper ahead of him? Will he get passed? But 30 minutes of this footage with no outside influences can get downright boring as well.

One issue I see with speeding up video is if say there were cuts to a speedometer indicating excessive/extralegal speeds. If it were just sped up video of on the road footage, I don't have any problem with that on it's face, but that doesn't mean there won't be an exception that I haven't considered at this point.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

When I shot the M7 Promo video, there were multiple places that I sped up the video to increase the pace and maintain continuity from scene to scene. One of the last shots was done at slow speed and sped up in post because the way we shot it, it couldn't have been done any other way.

The number of people shooting and editing MINI video for public consumption is extremely small. Right now, I can count on one hand the number of people that have been doing this for the past 3 years. Maybe what we need is a shift in content. It's hard making good videos, and maybe driving videos are a thing of the past, but since some NAM members are so bent on infringing on a creative filmmakers rights, I don't see a very bright future for us.

It seems I might be that NAM member.

While I agree that you have the right to film and edit how you please, and I have the right to do the same with the subject matter I photograph, we're both still reliant on the decisions the distribution network has made about the standards it imposes on content it will distribute.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

If we aren't allowed to enhance reality to make it more enjoyable then "hey why even go watch a movie?" I mean, maybe this wasn't known, but you do realize that even "reality tv" is completely edited to the point of "changing reality" just to make it more enjoyable.

No one has said you can't enhance reality. Problems start though when those efforts (regardless of how much care was taken) come in conflict with the site guidelines.

[Hulles]

My view is, if NAM is taking down car videos due to execssive speed, then why does this site exist? might as well take the whole damn thing down, If this is a car enthusiast website, then going fast and having fun is just part of the package. Now I can see if someone was posting videos of them dodging police and other highly illegal things, but spirited driving on a twistie road if what driving a mini is about. If they are going to be that anal about it...then get rid of the whole website I say because you are promoting it.

I was thinking of shooting some videos to edit and post here..but after them taking your video down..perhaps ill pass.

[snid]

I think the site moderators are doing a fine job.

There's always going to be a sort of "nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean?" going on when it comes to spirited driving on public roads. Before I started autocrossing and going to the track, I would regularly go drive some of the mountain roads up here at above legal speeds. I don't do that as often anymore, but I still take a corner above the speed limit now and again.

But, I don't take video of me driving above the speed limit / dangerously on public roads (except for that one time years ago, of course).

Assume something bad happens out on a public road, do you want to have video of it?

Hasn't in car video from some enthusiasts been used as evidence by police after their cars got pulled over (some VWs heading to Waterfest, I think)?

[planeguy]

I don't understand why it is so difficult for some people to understand that if you want to have fun .....GO TO THE !%$!#^! TRACK....post all the videos you want.

You think it is cool or something....Why do you feel the need to post it huh? maybe some adolecent need to show off and get approval from other people?

Public roads are NOT the place to have fun.....sure, we have all gotten carless a time or two....but that does not change the fact it was WRONG!


This community will not support people who insist on placing others lives at risk! PERIOD! .....There were no lives at risk in the Italian job movies ....sheeesh

[Hulles]

yeah it has, but if you have video of you personally doing something illegal, with your plates in view and you post it on the internet, then you deserve to be caught cause thats just plain dumb lol.

[Eric_Rowland]

Originally Posted by Dave

While I agree that you have the right to film and edit how you please, and I have the right to do the same with the subject matter I photograph, we're both still reliant on the decisions the distribution network has made about the standards it imposes on content it will distribute.

That paragraph would encompass my $.02, especially with respect to the distribution network. You have the 'right' to film whatever you'd like. You don't have the 'right' to sell it wherever you choose, regardless of content. IMO, documenting illegal activity is never a good idea. "What goes on the road, stays on the road."

WRT the M7 video - are you talking about speeding up the segment in the tunnel? I thought that car went away pretty quickly... IMO, there should be a disclaimer WRT the editing. Otherwise it's tantamount to false advertising.

Originally Posted by Hulles

My view is, if NAM is taking down car videos due to execssive speed, then why does this site exist?

Hulles, car enthusiasts are not identified only by their desire for speeding. It's an enthusiast site, not a speed site. For most of us, that suits us just fine.

[goaljnky]

I say we throw caution to the wind and have Dave use his amazing photography skill on a shot of a pair of breats hanging out the sunroof of a Mini doing about 120. Who is with me? Come on Dave, you can do it!

On a serious note. This is a private site. Play by the rules, or don't play at all. I belong to several other boards from mild to anything goes (www.mininuts.com). I post and play according to the rules and guidelines (or lack thereof) of the forum I am on. You are always welcome to join/start a Usenet group, but I doubt you will find too many enthusiasts willing to sit/read/tolerate the endless flame wars.

[OctaneGuy]

The point of this thread wasn't to condone illegal activity. I think those VW drivers got what they deserved.

Documenting dangerous passing and crossing the line are just as wrong.

However, there is also a line where creativity allows you to enhance the visual aspect for the pure sake of entertainment without having to do anything illegal.

re: M7 Video
It's not my responsibility to claim or make disclaimers if the customer hasn't specifically requested that. The MINI really did speed off like a flash, however the footage was sped up because during the initial viewings, the tunnel scene was just too long.

re: DAVE and "infringing"
Nooooo, wasn't referring to you at all. Was directed more at a few people in the community for making a comparison between a dangerous act that put lives at risk versus killing yourself, i.e. falling off a cliff. LOL

re: Private Community
I fully understand that there really isn't any "rights" per se in a private forum. You play by the rules if you want to coexist and that's fine by me. However, if the community decides to take action against all forms of driving entertainment, it's really shooting itself in the foot.

I mean, are my VacuCams on the line now for enabling people to capture dangerous acts??? The low position of the tow hook mount gives the impression of speed with the rushing foreground. 45 mph looks like 100+

I'm sure glad Darkness didn't use my VacuCams for shooting his video!

Richard

[dave]

Originally Posted by goaljnky

I say we throw caution to the wind and have Dave use his amazing photography skill on a shot of a pair of breats hanging out the sunroof of a Mini doing about 120. Who is with me? Come on Dave, you can do it!

I wouldn't mind skipping the 120 part, but I'd be down for that... Not saying I'd post it up on NAM, but I'd be down for it.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

However, there is also a line where creativity allows you to enhance the visual aspect for the pure sake of entertainment without having to do anything illegal.

I would add to that the perception of having done anything illegal / reckless as it comes across on the video.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

re: DAVE and "infringing"
Nooooo, wasn't referring to you at all. Was directed more at a few people in the community for making a comparison between a dangerous act that put lives at risk versus killing yourself, i.e. falling off a cliff. LOL

Oh, ok. I missed that implication on my first read through.

[myzamboni]

It's NAM's right, but they still allow people to post what mods they have which are not street legal in the state they reside? For the protection of those people I will not post usernames

Kind of funny to take a stance on some illegal activities and not others . . .

[Hulles]

Originally Posted by myzamboni

It's NAM's right, but they still allow people to post what mods they have which are not street legal in the state they reside? For the protection of those people I will not post usernames

Kind of funny to take a stance on some illegal activities and not others . . .

This is the point I was trying to make. well said.

[RCristiano]

Originally Posted by Dave

I would add to that the perception of having done anything illegal / reckless as it comes across on the video.

So your policy is that if somebody THINKS you're doing something illegal, regardless of whether you are or not, you're in the wrong? Welcome to NAMteeneightyfour

[dave]

Originally Posted by RCristiano

So your policy is that if somebody THINKS you're doing something illegal, regardless of whether you are or not, you're in the wrong? Welcome to NAMteeneightyfour

What I said above is more of a recommendation to help avoid problems in the future.

Any content flagged for review by the moderation team will be reviewed. We will look at it and make a judgement about whether or not it is in conflict with the guidelines. Just because someone complains does not mean it will be yanked.

However, in creating the video in the first place, if NAM is an intended venue for distribution, I think it would be a wise practice to take into account how the video stands on it's own without explanation in terms of it's compliance with the site policies.

[Hulles]

its things like this that make this place seem like some big business conglomeration. Its an Internet Website, no need to break out the magnafying glass and call up the committee of justice to see if something breaks a rule.

If he wants to sell his video here, i say let him, nobody is forcing anyone to purchase it. Consumers can make their own decisions I think.

I'm not tryin to come across as a jerk here, I just wish people in this world would relax abit, or people like Octane Guy will no longer be motivated to make these cool videos for people to enjoy.

[Eric_Rowland]

And that would be all well and good until the first parent of an idiot who kills himself finds a NAM distributed video on his computer, and their lawyer names NAM in a lawsuit as contributing to his death by promoting reckless driving. Then Mark gets to go to court and hope that some jury doesn't award the family his house as recompense for his role(?) in the kid's death.

Ridiculous? Yes. But that doesn't mean it can't happen.
- The old lady chose to buy a cup of hot coffee and put it in her lap. She got $2M.
- Rock bands get sued when teens commit suicide.
When you're older and/or you understand liability and risk, it may make more sense.

[myzamboni]

Originally Posted by Eric_Rowland

And that would be all well and good until the first parent of an idiot who kills himself finds a NAM distributed video on his computer, and their lawyer names NAM in a lawsuit as contributing to his death by promoting reckless driving. Then Mark gets to go to court and hope that some jury doesn't award the family his house as recompense for his role(?) in the kid's death.

Ridiculous? Yes. But that doesn't mean it can't happen.
- The old lady chose to buy a cup of hot coffee and put it in her lap. She got $2M.
- Rock bands get sued when teens commit suicide.
When you're older and/or you understand liability and risk, it may make more sense.

All you need is a disclaimer stating that NAM does not support nor condone the illegal activities that occur in videos posted on the site. <Edit> I am talking about posted videos, not videos for sale</Edit>

[OctaneGuy]

The sad thing about this post and every post that makes reference to my Malibu DVD is that, THERE WAS NOTHING RECKLESS about it.

If you call enhancing squealing tires on a one way road, reckless, then fine. Watch the DVD, all the excitement happens at the end with me and Maximini.

By your own admission, anyone that provides a product to the general public is open to a lawsuit. My family business makes skincare products. Even if we make sun screen which is considered a drug and regulated by the FDA, under their own guidelines, lawyers are still filing lawsuits that SPF 30 might actually be SPF 28.

If my Malibu DVD showed people crossing lines and passing cars on blind corners, and acting recklessly, then sure, that's a different story, but this was responsible entertainment, so I'd appreciate it, if you wouldn't lump my DVD in the category of blatant reckless driving as was seen by another NAM member at the Dragon. COMPLETELY different videos altogether under completely different circumstances.

Originally Posted by Eric_Rowland

And that would be all well and good until the first parent of an idiot who kills himself finds a NAM distributed video on his computer, and their lawyer names NAM in a lawsuit as contributing to his death by promoting reckless driving. Then Mark gets to go to court and hope that some jury doesn't award the family his house as recompense for his role(?) in the kid's death.

Ridiculous? Yes. But that doesn't mean it can't happen.
- The old lady chose to buy a cup of hot coffee and put it in her lap. She got $2M.
- Rock bands get sued when teens commit suicide.
When you're older and/or you understand liability and risk, it may make more sense.

[Eric_Rowland]

Sorry, my post referenced no video in particular - it was a hypothetical.
I haven't seen the Malibu DVD, and thus haven't commented on it.

My post was in response to Hulles' the 'Consumers make the decision' comment, which while true, does not preclude spurious legal action by relatives of Darwinesque injuries or deaths.

[Edge]

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

The sad thing about this post and every post that makes reference to my Malibu DVD is that, THERE WAS NOTHING RECKLESS about it.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

There is one point in the video which shows me crossing the line around a blind curve [edit..On our way up the mountain]. That should be a shining example of what never to do, because moments later, a huge truck comes around the next corner--and had I done the same thing, I would have been history and possibly taken an innocent life with me. So please learn from my own mistakes, and drive safely at all times, you never know when your next MINI run will be your last forever.

Your very own post today in the video discussion over on the MOTD4 forum pointed out that you engaged in very dangerous and life-threatening behavior in your video, Richard. Come on now.

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

If my Malibu DVD showed people crossing lines and passing cars on blind corners, and acting recklessly, then sure, that's a different story, but this was responsible entertainment

Am I getting videos confused? Isn't the Malibu DVD the same one you were talking about above? Or are they two different videos? For the record, I never said a word about "tire squealing". My tires squeal sometimes in the simplest of circumstances. My main issue has always been line crossing.

[planeguy]

Originally Posted by planeguy

I don't understand why it is so difficult for some people to understand that if you want to have fun .....GO TO THE !%$!#^! TRACK....post all the videos you want.


Public roads are NOT the place to have fun.....sure, we have all gotten carless a time or two....but that does not change the fact it was WRONG!

simple

[alpha-6]

I know this sounds too simple but why not post the video on a hosting site like youtube and just link to it and if they take down the link down then say "go to youtube and search (insert video name/topic here)....what are the rules against that??!?!

(Anxiously awaiting a response)

[planeguy]

By the way......on a related note. Dave, or other moderator.....could you guys get around to removing the photos of the topless woman in the galery. That kind of crap can get people fired!

[OctaneGuy]

My post was a reference from my FAQ. I touched and creeped over the line on the way up the mountain because I took a turn too quickly. It wasn't the blatant crossing that you see in the Dragon videos, but nevertheless it happened. I don't remember if anyone even noticed it in the video, but I pointed it out as a lesson learned that driving in the canyons can be dangerous stuff even without exceeding the speed limit.

The sample videos don't show this, because it was part of a very long sequence of just trying to get to the top of the mountain. The sample videos only showed the final downhill moments, and that's where I was being judged, however that's also the area that's one way and with no cross traffic. And the video was shot by me radioing the group to get closer. At several points I stop, and let everyone get framed. The scene from the posted video clip sample was of me and Randy (Maxmini). There was a car ahead of us, way down the road who was in radio contact and the rest were behind us, some 8 cars in total I believe.

The participants had no idea I was going to be making a video of them. I actually wasn't even sure either. Several NAM members wanted to get together for a run, so I took my prototype VacuCams with me to document it. That's how the Malibu DVD evolved.

re: Tire Squealing
I was referring to Yuccas original post about the tire squealing, line crossing, and tailgating, and that you then agreed that it was wrong for NAM to be selling such a video. That would have been fine if that stuff had been true but it wasn't.

Originally Posted by Edge

Your very own post today in the video discussion over on the MOTD4 forum pointed out that you engaged in very dangerous and life-threatening behavior in your video, Richard. Come on now.Am I getting videos confused? Isn't the Malibu DVD the same one you were talking about above? Or are they two different videos? For the record, I never said a word about "tire squealing". My tires squeal sometimes in the simplest of circumstances. My main issue has always been line crossing.