Modding a Clubman to get Hardtop Handling
#1
Modding a Clubman to get Hardtop Handling
Hi Folks,
I’m looking at picking up a used Cooper S. I’ve been able to test drive (really aggressively) the 2012 Hardtop and the Clubman S side by side a number of times.
I’m finding that the handling of the Clubman just can’t compare to the Hardtop. In fact, the difference was quite stark. I think LILERD best articulated it in this old thread. In my more nontechnical analysis, the Hardtop was much more fun and responsive. It turned on a dime, it felt like everything a mini is supposed to be. Every turn, whether into a driveway or at speed, elicited a visceral reaction. You felt the bumps, but not in a jarring way like a BMW does - it’s that BMW suspension magic. It was confidence inspiring when I pushed it. It was a thrill.
In the clubman, I felt like I was fighting the car in hard turns, it made me nervous at the limits, and bumps didn’t give the same responsiveness. I walked away really disappointed by the Clubman. Unfortunately, I really wanted to like it as I need the extra space when I have to shuttle the kids and their sports gear. (Wife has a mini-van).
Keep in mind that I drove them “hard” and (i think) I have a pretty high bar. The last “Fun” car I had (before kids) was an E36 M3 which I autocrossed and drove hard in the hills all over California.
So here are my questions:
a) am I insane or too critical? Am I imagining the differences? I’m not saying the Clubman is not fun, but driving it next to the hardtop may have spoiled me.
b) If the difference is not imagined, what mods, if any, would be required to get the Clubman to match there Cooper’s handling?
By the way, everything should have been the same in both cars. Both were Cooper S’s. One has 20k miles, the other 32k. Both had the salesperson and (ahem) thee kids in the back seat.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
I’m looking at picking up a used Cooper S. I’ve been able to test drive (really aggressively) the 2012 Hardtop and the Clubman S side by side a number of times.
I’m finding that the handling of the Clubman just can’t compare to the Hardtop. In fact, the difference was quite stark. I think LILERD best articulated it in this old thread. In my more nontechnical analysis, the Hardtop was much more fun and responsive. It turned on a dime, it felt like everything a mini is supposed to be. Every turn, whether into a driveway or at speed, elicited a visceral reaction. You felt the bumps, but not in a jarring way like a BMW does - it’s that BMW suspension magic. It was confidence inspiring when I pushed it. It was a thrill.
In the clubman, I felt like I was fighting the car in hard turns, it made me nervous at the limits, and bumps didn’t give the same responsiveness. I walked away really disappointed by the Clubman. Unfortunately, I really wanted to like it as I need the extra space when I have to shuttle the kids and their sports gear. (Wife has a mini-van).
Keep in mind that I drove them “hard” and (i think) I have a pretty high bar. The last “Fun” car I had (before kids) was an E36 M3 which I autocrossed and drove hard in the hills all over California.
So here are my questions:
a) am I insane or too critical? Am I imagining the differences? I’m not saying the Clubman is not fun, but driving it next to the hardtop may have spoiled me.
b) If the difference is not imagined, what mods, if any, would be required to get the Clubman to match there Cooper’s handling?
By the way, everything should have been the same in both cars. Both were Cooper S’s. One has 20k miles, the other 32k. Both had the salesperson and (ahem) thee kids in the back seat.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
#2
Hmm..
You could cut the clubman in half...remove about a foot...weld it back...
Other than that, cars are basicly the same (assuming they both had the same packages..pretty rare)...
The difference in feel is about wheelbase and weight...
Not sure how you can compensate for that...
But this bump might help you...
You could cut the clubman in half...remove about a foot...weld it back...
Other than that, cars are basicly the same (assuming they both had the same packages..pretty rare)...
The difference in feel is about wheelbase and weight...
Not sure how you can compensate for that...
But this bump might help you...
#4
Vendor
iTrader: (10)
Start with an Hsport Comp Rear sway bar, then drive it and make a plan from there.
I have a clubman and love it. But it is heavier so it will always be different. The suspension is the same on the cars, just the rear springs are a little heavier for the weight.
I have a clubman and love it. But it is heavier so it will always be different. The suspension is the same on the cars, just the rear springs are a little heavier for the weight.
#5
You are not imagining the difference in handling. The short answer to you question is, chop about a foot and a half off the end of the clubman, and it should handle and feel like a hardtop. The reason why the hardtop is so responsive and fun is becuase of the short wheelbase and suspesion plain and simple. You can only do so much to the Clubman suspension (rear sway and springs), but there is no way you will be able to mimic the hartop "feel" in a Clubman. I would guess you can get to about 50% the feel of a hardtop, but that is about it.
#7
I did not, unfortunately, check the tires, but they should have been the same. Both were Cooper S's (low mileage). I could double check. Both had sport. I also actually drove two Hardtops, (though it's possible the Clubman was the odd man out) as well as previously my brother's convertible and the Clubman just wasn't the same. :(
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#9
You say both had Sport, I am assuming you mean Sport Package. Did you check if perhaps one of them had Sport Suspension and the other did not? Sport Pack does not come with Sport Suspension, it is a separate, additional option.
Anyways, it sounds like you really don't have much of a choice. Children only grow bigger, and a Clubman is still a whole lot better than your wife's minivan.
Do some research on available suspension upgrades for the Clubman, I am sure there is a decent amount of aftermarket parts (upgraded springs, sway bars, strut tower braces, coil-overs, etc.). If you need references, check out the vendors on this forum. You can often PM them directly and they will give you some good advice.
Anyways, it sounds like you really don't have much of a choice. Children only grow bigger, and a Clubman is still a whole lot better than your wife's minivan.
Do some research on available suspension upgrades for the Clubman, I am sure there is a decent amount of aftermarket parts (upgraded springs, sway bars, strut tower braces, coil-overs, etc.). If you need references, check out the vendors on this forum. You can often PM them directly and they will give you some good advice.
#10
I own both can't say the 56 is any better than my 55 . I know with my mods it's actually a tad faster in a side by side 40-120 WOT test I was a few car lengths ahead at 120. Guess I don't drive in circles enough to notice and handling difference. But as others stated I replaced rear sway, and I have 17's vs the 56's stock 16's.
#11
I did not, unfortunately, check the tires, but they should have been the same. Both were Cooper S's (low mileage). I could double check. Both had sport. I also actually drove two Hardtops, (though it's possible the Clubman was the odd man out) as well as previously my brother's convertible and the Clubman just wasn't the same. :(
Wheels and tires make a huge difference.
It would be worthwhile to go back and check for yourself.
16" OEM wheels are 16x6.5" and tires are 195/55-16 if stock, 205/50-16 or 205/55-16 are commonly also used.
17" OEM wheels are 17x7" and tires are 205/45-17 or 215/45-17.
The performance of the 17" combo is much better handling than the softer riding but much less responsive 16" combo.
You can get a Clubman to handle better with suspension upgrades such as Koni FSD shocks/OEM springs and going with light weight 17" wheels. Great non runflat tires like Michelin Pilot Super Sport (Max Summer tire) in 205/45-17 would be vastly better than any of the tires you used for those test drives.
#12
Thanks again everyone for their help!
So, I made the call and my 2012 Clubman S with 32000 miles arrives tomorrow (hopefully).
Based upon your responses, and research it looks like (after driving it for a few weeks) , I will do the following:
1) Koni FSD - Seems like this will give me what I need in terms of improved handling without a sacrifice in comfort as most of my driving will be city driving in Boston, where the roads are atrocious. Absolutely atrocious.
2) HSport rear Sway bar from Way Motor works at the same time.
3) Sooner or later get non RF tires. If I can sell the RF on there now, I'll do it sooner. I'm just not sure about 16 or 17 yet.
Any other recs?
Seems like it's probably not worthwhile to do the springs as I don't think I need it lowered, although the wheel gap is just so big. Just afraid of too stiff a ride around here.
So, I made the call and my 2012 Clubman S with 32000 miles arrives tomorrow (hopefully).
Based upon your responses, and research it looks like (after driving it for a few weeks) , I will do the following:
1) Koni FSD - Seems like this will give me what I need in terms of improved handling without a sacrifice in comfort as most of my driving will be city driving in Boston, where the roads are atrocious. Absolutely atrocious.
2) HSport rear Sway bar from Way Motor works at the same time.
3) Sooner or later get non RF tires. If I can sell the RF on there now, I'll do it sooner. I'm just not sure about 16 or 17 yet.
Any other recs?
Seems like it's probably not worthwhile to do the springs as I don't think I need it lowered, although the wheel gap is just so big. Just afraid of too stiff a ride around here.
#13
Wheels and tires make a huge difference.
It would be worthwhile to go back and check for yourself.
16" OEM wheels are 16x6.5" and tires are 195/55-16 if stock, 205/50-16 or 205/55-16 are commonly also used.
17" OEM wheels are 17x7" and tires are 205/45-17 or 215/45-17.
The performance of the 17" combo is much better handling than the softer riding but much less responsive 16" combo.
You can get a Clubman to handle better with suspension upgrades such as Koni FSD shocks/OEM springs and going with light weight 17" wheels. Great non runflat tires like Michelin Pilot Super Sport (Max Summer tire) in 205/45-17 would be vastly better than any of the tires you used for those test drives.
It would be worthwhile to go back and check for yourself.
16" OEM wheels are 16x6.5" and tires are 195/55-16 if stock, 205/50-16 or 205/55-16 are commonly also used.
17" OEM wheels are 17x7" and tires are 205/45-17 or 215/45-17.
The performance of the 17" combo is much better handling than the softer riding but much less responsive 16" combo.
You can get a Clubman to handle better with suspension upgrades such as Koni FSD shocks/OEM springs and going with light weight 17" wheels. Great non runflat tires like Michelin Pilot Super Sport (Max Summer tire) in 205/45-17 would be vastly better than any of the tires you used for those test drives.
#14
But yes, the HT would be too small for us even now with all the kid's sports and school stuff. I was debating getting the 135i, which is a beast, even after I signed the paperwork. It reminded me a lot of my M3. However, my wife made a great point: "drive the Clubman for 2 more years, and then give it to [our daughter] and get yourself another car car then." Best of both worlds! Really looking forward to the mini now esp as a project car; probably would have left the 135 stock.
#15
Originally Posted by MrElusive
Anyways, it sounds like you really don't have much of a choice. Children only grow bigger, and a Clubman is still a whole lot better than your wife's minivan.
But yes, the HT would be too small for us even now with all the kid's sports and school stuff.
a). Clubman is not all THAT much more family friendly. Hardtop 4-door or a Coutryman may fit your needs better.
b). Clubman is heavier than a HT. Full stop. You can make it handle better by throwing money at it, but it will never handle as well as a HT with equivalent $$ amount of mods.
I was debating getting the 135i, which is a beast, even after I signed the paperwork. It reminded me a lot of my M3. However, my wife made a great point: "drive the Clubman for 2 more years, and then give it to [our daughter] and get yourself another car car then." Best of both worlds! Really looking forward to the mini now esp as a project car; probably would have left the 135 stock.
Either car is almost as heavy as a 3-series (north of 3500 lbs)
If you are serious about allowing your kids to self in/egress the car (makes life Sooooo much easier, especially in the rain, or during multiple shopping stops), then it's time for a 3-series.
It will cost you less than a JCW.
Most models will be faster than a JCW.
If your budget can support a 335, or M3, those cars will put a permanent smile on your face every time you drive one. So does an MCS or a JCW, but in a different way.
Once you have kids big enough to get in and out of your car on their own, you will figure out you are better off with a 4-door car!
Good luck,
a
#17
Not to say something terribly obvious, but:
a). Clubman is not all THAT much more family friendly. Hardtop 4-door or a Coutryman may fit your needs better.
b). Clubman is heavier than a HT. Full stop. You can make it handle better by throwing money at it, but it will never handle as well as a HT with equivalent $$ amount of mods.
a). Clubman is not all THAT much more family friendly. Hardtop 4-door or a Coutryman may fit your needs better.
b). Clubman is heavier than a HT. Full stop. You can make it handle better by throwing money at it, but it will never handle as well as a HT with equivalent $$ amount of mods.
And yes, the clubman will never handle like the HT, but that's the compromise I had to make.
Perhaps I will find that a 3 door car won't work, but luckily the dealer has a 30-day return policy.
There is no 135 in the US, only 235.
Either car is almost as heavy as a 3-series (north of 3500 lbs)
Either car is almost as heavy as a 3-series (north of 3500 lbs)
If you are serious about allowing your kids to self in/egress the car (makes life Sooooo much easier, especially in the rain, or during multiple shopping stops), then it's time for a 3-series.
If your budget can support a 335, or M3, those cars will put a permanent smile on your face every time you drive one. So does an MCS or a JCW, but in a different way.
Besides, in 2-3 years, the clubman goes to my daughter, and I get a to start this process over again. I'm thinking a nicely used 135is or, if by some miracle I find one, a 1M.
#18
Thanks for this clarification . They were all Sport "Mode", not sport suspension.
I'm coming from a 2001 Acura MDX with 200k miles on the Original suspension, so anything is better!
But yes, the HT would be too small for us even now with all the kid's sports and school stuff. I was debating getting the 135i, which is a beast, even after I signed the paperwork. It reminded me a lot of my M3. However, my wife made a great point: "drive the Clubman for 2 more years, and then give it to [our daughter] and get yourself another car car then." Best of both worlds! Really looking forward to the mini now esp as a project car; probably would have left the 135 stock.
I'm coming from a 2001 Acura MDX with 200k miles on the Original suspension, so anything is better!
But yes, the HT would be too small for us even now with all the kid's sports and school stuff. I was debating getting the 135i, which is a beast, even after I signed the paperwork. It reminded me a lot of my M3. However, my wife made a great point: "drive the Clubman for 2 more years, and then give it to [our daughter] and get yourself another car car then." Best of both worlds! Really looking forward to the mini now esp as a project car; probably would have left the 135 stock.
#19
biggest handling improvements i've made to my clubby:
Non-RF tires, went with RE760 sports
TSW under chassis brace
rear (behind rear seats) brace
Koni Yellows with NM springs (gets rid of the gap with out slamming the car)
and a RSB set to however you like it.
Now my car is stiff at all four corners, turns on a dime, pretty much zero body roll, and not a harsh ride. I know some folks says the bracing doesn't do much, but I think in the clubby it really helped dramatically with it's slightly longer/heavier body.
Non-RF tires, went with RE760 sports
TSW under chassis brace
rear (behind rear seats) brace
Koni Yellows with NM springs (gets rid of the gap with out slamming the car)
and a RSB set to however you like it.
Now my car is stiff at all four corners, turns on a dime, pretty much zero body roll, and not a harsh ride. I know some folks says the bracing doesn't do much, but I think in the clubby it really helped dramatically with it's slightly longer/heavier body.
#21
Originally Posted by afadeev
Not to say something terribly obvious, but:
a). Clubman is not all THAT much more family friendly. Hardtop 4-door or a Coutryman may fit your needs better.
b). Clubman is heavier than a HT. Full stop. You can make it handle better by throwing money at it, but it will never handle as well as a HT with equivalent $$ amount of mods.
a). Clubman is not all THAT much more family friendly. Hardtop 4-door or a Coutryman may fit your needs better.
b). Clubman is heavier than a HT. Full stop. You can make it handle better by throwing money at it, but it will never handle as well as a HT with equivalent $$ amount of mods.
Which is fine, but that's a different ask, and it brings forth a totally different set of trade-offs. Yet the bottom line is the same: there are no mods that can make up for the extra weight you will be (are) dragging around with the wagons vs. equivalent coupe or sedan model of a vehicle.
I don't know where you are in the US, but consider grabbing one from the following: http://autos.jdpower.com/content/buy...er-s-guide.htm
Personally, I would have leaned towards Outback, but Clubman is also on that list.
Originally Posted by afadeev
There is no 135 in the US, only 235.
Either car is almost as heavy as a 3-series (north of 3500 lbs).
Either car is almost as heavy as a 3-series (north of 3500 lbs).
Clubman is discontinued as a model, and mostly will be depreciating rapidly from now on.
New electric power steering in 1- and 3-series is a bit of a let down vs. the feel of the old BMW hydraulic steering racks. But you bought a MINI, which also has electric steering rack - so how bad can it be?
a
#22
#23
#24
http://www.bmwusa.com/
Did BMW really bring 4-door and 5-door 1-series to the US under my nose, or are we talking naming disparity (what used to be 1-series coupe is now 2-series) ?
a
#25
Strange, I must have missed them as all sub-3-series cars I have seen in the US are 2-doors (now known as 2-series coupe's):
http://www.bmwusa.com/
Did BMW really bring 4-door and 5-door 1-series to the US under my nose, or are we talking naming disparity (what used to be 1-series coupe is now 2-series) ?
a
http://www.bmwusa.com/
Did BMW really bring 4-door and 5-door 1-series to the US under my nose, or are we talking naming disparity (what used to be 1-series coupe is now 2-series) ?
a
To be clear though, the 1 series is a 2 door. Not a four door. AFAIK they're not releasing a 4 door, but I'm not following so closely. I'm fine with a 2 door. The Clubman will accomplish what I need. I do not need a wagon. The original question was about the Clubman vs the hardtop. Just picked it up, and despite all the comparisons I did against the Hardtop, it's still a lot of fun.