11.2 is a great AFR for on-boost driving... This is another example of someone not needing to upgrade injectors. You're now running overly rich (not unsafe though) and just literally threw away power. Sure, if you plan on modding a lot more in the future and will then tune these injectors, that's another story. As it sits now, you had no need to size-up. Even 11.5 - 11.8 AFR is plenty safe at WOT / redline.

If you're worried about IDC getting too high, well, I wouldn't because so long as you're not living at WOT (track driving), I wouldn't worry about overheating the injector coils due to high IDC. Your previous AFR proves that regardless of your unknown IDC, you weren't running lean; not even close.

The reason your car is idling rough is because those White Giants have a shitty spray pattern compared to the ones I've been recommending the entire second half of this thread. Fuel is hitting the intake manifold runner port walls, and dribbling into the combustion chamber rather than being delivered via a fine, homogenized mist. This gives a lean and inconsistent idle.

 

Was the shitty spray pattern discussed at all? I can be a fast reader at times and probably missed it. After reading c00pers alternate injector page he made I thought the white giants were a good option. It was time to replace my fuel filter and pressure regulator and a mechanic buddy suggested swapping out injectors at my mileage too. I hadn't found any of the others you suggested in the other half of this thread via ebay at the time, so I went with the white giants. Now I wish I would have stuck with my stock ones and just replaced the o rings.

I definitely don't live at WOT, I have my my days where I like to go for a spirited drive through some back roads and I'll be at WOT. I did a little yesterday. Should I worry about the inconsistent idle with these injectors?

Now I kind of think maybe I should get my stock ones cleaned and reinstalled. I jumped the gun a little on the white giants due to the fact I'm about to drive from WA to San Diego and didn't want my injectors to go on me while I was gone. I do plan on getting a cam and tune within 6 months though.

 

I wrote a big, long reply and I accidentally hit Back.... ****. Here it goes again:

c00per sent me his injector info FAQ a while back for editing, and among many updates, I thought I made a correction to omit the White Giants as a viable option for this very reason. Early-on in this thread (~page 2), all the specs for White Giants sounded right, but, after talking to some people who had tried them, I decided that they weren't ideal.

When I first started investigating alternative injector options, I contacted USRallyTeam a couple of times in order to discuss with Scott (owner) the viability of using White Giants on the R53. He told me that he actually used White Giants on his cars (VW 1.8T) a while back, but poor idle quality led him to develop his own injectors (Genesis).

To take this one step further, he also told me that Eric (owner of Helix) contacted him to discuss injector options for the R53 several years back. Eric and Scott know each other from a long time ago, because Eric of Helix originally tuned & built VW cars, like Scott. Anyhow, Eric was initially trying to use White Giants in the R53, but also experienced idle quality issues; Scott offered-up his new line of Genesis injectors. This finally led to Helix sourcing "their" injectors from USRallyTeam, and reselling them at a mark-up. The point is, there's anecdotal evidence that the White Giants provide less than ideal idle quality in the R53 (and small port VW 1.8T).

SO: Make sure your injectors are fully-seated (you'd likely smell a leak); make sure the injectors aren't askew, meaning, if they're rotated past where they should be in either direction, dual cone or narrow single cone injectors will spray the manifold wall, causing idle problems. Other than that, give them a week or two to come around, and if they don't, you can either deal with a shitty idle, or pull them and install the recommended Bosch EV14 Volvo T5 / Euro Focus ST T5 injectors.

http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...ex&cPath=10_44

Feel free to call Scott, and chat if you have any questions.

 

Here is the Article: http://www.c0op3r.com/MINI/Mini.htm

 

You guys may or may not have see this video stock injectors vs jcw injectors vs 550 vs 440

 

Thanks. I just looked at my saved copy, too. It looks like I missed updating that.

Well, it remains the same: they're usable injectors, but seem to provide a lumpy idle.
My personal recommendation remains, and that's to run the Bosch part # 0280158096. There are now several people running these, and they work wonderfully.

 

I posted this video wayyyy back. Those 440's are the only ones with a problematic spray pattern. Even though the JCW and stock R53 have markedly better atomization than the 550 shown, the 550's have the correct separation angle, and the fuel streams will atomize more once they hit the back of the intake valves.

 

Okay, thank you for your input. I agree, I want to run them for a week or so and see how they go. I installed them saturday night, seemed to run just fine except for the occasional rough idle. Went on a cruise with a local car club sunday and the car performed great, on monday the car seemed to do great also. Today I've noticed that after initial start up the car seems to idle fine but the afrs bounce from an idle 14.7-15.0 to lean, probably due to the shitty spray as you informed me. Now while driving around town I noticed a slow/partial throttle increase the afrs lean out also, all after initial start up for a few minutes before settling to 14.7-15.0 under normal driving. I do understand that my afrs should bounce around while driving around town between cruising, letting off the gas, accelerating, etc. It doesn't lean out once I put my foot into the throttle. I've done a couple WOT pulls and my afrs float around 10.6-10.8 now at redline, sometimes 11.0. Should I worry about the afrs upon partial throttle leaning out or continue with my plan to give it a week or so and see if they work themselves out? I'm probably making no sense, but it's hard to describe. I can try and get a video later if needed.

Overall the car runs great. I get an occasional rough idle where the afrs lean all the way out, my only compliant now is the leaning out under partial/slow throttle for a few minutes of initial driving. But it never leans out when I actually put my foot to the throttle, whether thats a quick acceleration or WOT pull.

I've checked and the injectors seem to be seated good, orientated right, and all connections seem good. Unless you think maybe I should pull them now, I'll give them a week still. I can throw my stock ones back in until I can get a set of the Bosch ones you highly recommend, I think one had a bad o-ring but otherwise they seem in solid condition.

Sorry if I'm throwing a lot at you, just trying to make sure I'm kind of headed in the right direction. Thanks.

 

Screw it. I don't care for the way these idle. I found a set of injectors used (100 dollars) from a T5 volvo matching the correct bosch part number that you highly recommend BigChill along with the proper connection adapter. I'll tough these ones out until next week. I'll just have to try and sell the white giants to some vw/audi guys, since I doubt I can return used injectors haha.

 

How lean are you running on idle and partial throttle? You can PM me if you want.

As you probably know, if you let off the throttle even a little bit, you're going to have a momentary lean spike; it's totally normal in that scenario. If you're not modulating the gas pedal at all (other than acceleration), you shouldn't have lean spikes.

 

just a Temporary PSA:

was curios about the Genesis 380 injectors so i sent them out to be flow tested. i get call back saying that they were cleaned and tested and they were only flowing 330CC. i was shocked. i asked at what pressure, he said 3.0 bar. i asked him if he could test again at 3.5 bar and please get back to me. he said he would call me in the morning with the results. i havent been using these injectors for a long time. probably 3 months or more. i wanted to test them before i got tuned.

i doubt it will change much from 3 to 3.5 so when the results come back i will be having a chat with the guys over at USRT.


I will get back as soon as i hear back from the guy testing my injectors.

good news is the injectors BigChill recomeds are good. they flow 370cc at 3.0bar, a friend just bought a set, and had them shipped from the UK.

 

That's odd about the Genesis units. Def call USRT and talk to them.

FYI: An injector that flows 330cc at 3bar (43.5psi) will flow 356cc at 3.5bar (50.7psi).

There are now a half-dozen or so people running the Bosch 0280158096 units with nothing but positive results, and I see no reason to run anything else if you're considering JCW injectors or similar sizes.

 

yes you are correct just wanted to see the "lab" results... the guy called me back and told me his new findings. same numbers and at 4bar was 380cc.

i emailed Scott, and he said he would take care of the issue. i just have to send them back.


yes, just to reinforce it those Bosch injectors are great and do work. but i belive i bought the G380's before you recommended the bosch. so im just going to stick with them for now.

 

As long as Scott fixes them and they test OK, that's fine.

A member here sent out both base R53 and JCW injectors for flow testing, so you can compare those numbers if you want to see how close the Genesis units are.

Anything you use to mimic the JCW units should flow between 370cc and 380cc at 3bar (43.5psi). If you decide to sell the Genesis units, VWVortex is a good place to do so.


EDIT: Here's the flow test data for OE injectors.

Actual Flow Testing of the Stock Cooper S and the JCW Injector yielded the following information:

JCW “380”cc @ 3 bar: 371cc
JCW “380”cc @ 3.5 bar: 399cc

Base R53 “330”cc @ 3 bar: 347cc
Base R53 “330”cc @ 3.5 bar: 373cc

 

TheBigChill, what orings have you used with the bosch 0280158096 injectors when you fitted them as the ones i have bought come with black top orings and brown lower orings (the brown lower one looks much smaller then the original).
Thanks

 

Oh, boy- let's see here...

I believe that I used the O-rings that came with mine, though, I had no glaring discrepancy in size (or leaks) with mine when compared to the stock units. The best bet would be to buy new O-rings for either injector, as it's not uncommon to tear an O-ring during removal or installation. Make sure you lube them with oil before pressing them into the fuel rail.

Also, keep in mind that your original O-rings could be not only a different material, but swollen and worn, too, making them a different size.

 

Thanks

 

Hey guys!!!!


Sorry I'm so late...really late. But I've been running the volvo 2.5t injectors for about a month or so....and they work perfectly.

The only problem I had was the connectors. I just ordered some of the cable two piece connectors to get rid of the spacers for the intercooler. Some times the intercooler will cause interference with them because they are so close to it. Swapped back to stuck until I get the connectors.

Reminder: If you do this mod, make sure to get EV6(USCAR) fuel injector connector to EV1(JETRONICS) harness connector. And to save yourself some headache, please use the ones that are two connectors with a cable, not the one piece connectors.

 

So has anyone done any actual testing or taken AFR readings after they have installed the 380cc injectors on their R53 with the stock tune? Everyone keeps saying "how well they work"......but is that just in your head? Were the stock injectors "working bad"? Has anyone done any dyno pulls before and after the 380cc injectors? If you believe hard enough...any "mod" you spend money on is going to make your car run better.

Just trying to figure out what benefits you actually get from running these. Yes, you may get a richer AFR that might help you make more top end power...but it might not. Also, they will make your idle richer.....right? What's so good about that? Black tailpipes? More fuel usage?

Are people just doing this because it's the next "got to do this mod" fad?

Just wondering......

 

You may want to wind down your ego a little bit. I understand your statement, but if you read it, it sound kind of on the rude side.

Fad? Seriously?? People are using them because they work, not because it is a fad. It is a plus to have bigger injectors if you're running a good amount of mods in your car.

The car actually idles a lot smoother, IMO, yes its an opinion..but a very visible and tangible one. If I had an AFR gauge on my car I would gladly post my results throughout the rev range. I have never talked about power increase, obviously I would have to take the car to a dyno, and also would post results.

Fact is, people are doing it just to run on the safe side if they are heavily modded. I have a 17% pulley, CAI & ATI damper...sure I might not need it but I got them with a purpose in mind and that is to be able to get the car tuned.

So aside from your attitude, I don't think people are doing it because its a "fad", I think they do it because it is an economic and a good substitute to the JCW injectors. I think there are some answers on the 19 pages of this thread, I know you can read.

 

Well...first off, sorry about wording my post to abrupt and coming off with an attitude. I really didn't mean to.

I'm just trying to figure out why everyone is jumping all over these 380cc injectors when they still have a stock tune. Sure the JCW's use 380's (04+)....but that's because they have JCW tunes in them that are dialed in for 380cc injectors.

The way the DCM's work in these cars is that at idle and WOT...they run in a closed loop mode. In other works, the injectors cycle times and duration goes off of a programed setting....so if you increase the size of the flow rate of the injectors, you make the fuel/air mixture richer. Now at midrange throttle...it's running in a open loop mode....so based off what the narrow band O2 sensor sees....it will adjust the fuel mixture to run at the proper AFR.

So....when you say that your car idles "better"....what does that mean? It's idling richer......why is that better? And at WOT....it's running richer. Is that "safer"....hard to tell....will it give you more power? Probably not....unless you are running more extensive mods like ported head, cam, header....

Keep in mind....this is all with the stock tune. If you install larger injectors and have your R53 custom tuned...of coarse it's going to run smoother, and make more power and torque overall.

I'm just confused why everyone is all of a sudden suggesting that you should run larger injectors with a stock tune. When's the last time you've heard of someone actually "blowing up" their R53 motor with some simple mods like a pulley and CIA using the stock 340cc injectors? It's pretty darn rare. So when I hear everyone saying "oh, it's so much safer to run these 380cc injectors because I'm running a pulley on my stock motor"....I have to wonder how much truth there really is behind that.

The guys that are running the pulleys, cams, headers, ported heads......and really making the kind of power that require larger injectors are all running custom tunes.

Once again...not trying to come off sounding like I've got an attitude, I just haven't really seen anything here but opinions...no real facts.

I guess I'm just a little skeptical because I've got an 03' JCW R53 (jcw head, jcw exhaust, jcw intake, jcw 200hp tune, with the 340cc injectors (JCW kits didn't come with 380cc injectors until 04')....and I'm also running a 17% pulley without any issues or lean AFR's. So I have a hard time when I hear "I have to run 380cc injectors on my stock R53 with a pulley so I don't blow it up...it's safer".

Just like "Hunt3R" said....his AFR's were just about perfect with the stock 340cc injectors....just slapping a set of 380cc injectors in his car with the stock tune would do nothing more than hurt performance.

 

Ideally, you would always re-tune when changing injectors (or any major air / fuel mod).

The verdict is in on the injectors I've been recommending (the Bosch Volvo units), and it would seem that every person who has tried them has good results...including me. Anyhow, back to the contentious topic of tuning for these;

I've always been very doubtful that there is any real need for upgrading injectors on a basic bolt-on R53. Those who've said otherwise were primarily Vendors, simply trying to sell parts to fearful forum members.

I've seen anecdotal evidence (two posts on NAM) that said with a 15% pulley, intake, and exhaust, a member was seeing an AFR of 11.3 at 6500 RPM. That's a really safe yet still powerful AFR. This forum member then upgraded to 380's, and with those he saw an AFR of 10.5 at 6500 RPM. 10.5 is too rich; it's not unsafe, but it's giving up tons of power.

Now, having said all of that, no two cars are identical. Most people who do the 380 "upgrade" without tuning, simply want to know that they're not going to run lean at any point. The best thing to do is get a tune, and before you even change injectors you should find out what your AFR is. A wideband is only $160 nowadays...people spend that on goofy rear seat deletes.

One more comment: You won't run "richer" the entire time you're idling. You'll run richer during cold start idles (before the coolant temp sensor tells the ECU you're fully warm) and during WOT. Everything else is controlled via the primary O2 sensor (closed loop).

The bottom line is this: You can run the 380's without negative consequence, untuned, and it gives you some peace-of-mind and headroom for future mods. Is it perfect? No. If you run colder plugs and untuned 380's, you might foul plugs occasionally.

 

ouch... greek making me wonder about my genesis 380cc that i have in the car

but the car runs great and they have been in for a while

 

you may want to get them flow tested....

Scott was good enough to replace them free of charge.

i did happen to send them out again for testing and they were with in the 380cc @ 3Bar range but for a custom job i would have expected them to be a matched set, as advertised... what i got after they were tested was 2 of them are flowing 384cc, 1 is 378cc, and 1 is 372cc... max difference of 3% am i a little ticked off ? yes. especially after it took a while. but that's a story i don't feel like getting into. i asked scott about it and he gave me a lack luster response. so i dropped it.

he is a nice guy but am not pleased with them... i do have them installed and are working just fine. but i do need to get tunned.

like everyone else says it definitely smoothed out over the whole rev range, and up top feels better.


would i recomend them? maybe/maybe not. for the price they are good if you want "new" other wise just go with the european ford injectors bigchill recomends. they are super cheap you get 5 off of ebay UK for like $60 shipped you get them cleaned and flow mathced for another 60 and you are good to go. still cheaper than the G380s.

 

I have an extra Volvo bosch injector I can send out to whoever does the flowbench thing. Its just sitting at home.

LMK