all right ill try to return these injectors then. if they wont take them back, would a injector shop be able to correct the orientation of the nozzles?

 

False, the ones he pictured were quad cone. And perhaps your's stream, but they should not. Mine mist. Quite well. Granted it is a directional mist, but when you take into the account the velocity of the air in the intake path it does not truely matter. UNLESS you have A BUTT TON of overlap. In that case having the injector not actually almost spraying into the cylinder could cause a little inter-runner mixing and the car will need to run closer to 13.8:1 instead of 14.5:1 at idle to be happy (ask how I know)

In GENERAL, especially for this car, injector position does not matter (within reason) <- this is what matters for the back of the valve.. not the rotation of the 4 holes. They spray in a cone pattern anyways. Unless the tips were in fact damaged, it should be of no consequence. if they are at 12, 3, 6, and 9 or 2, 5, 8, and 11 as the profile will STILL BE A FRIGGIN CONE!


Why? These cones do not have a axis off-tilt, but are perpendicular to the nozzle plane. The clocking of the actual holes themselves in the face of the injector is non-consequential. full stop. fact. (not to within any measurable degree for our level of use. MAYBE.. MAYBE in F1 where they run on the ragged edge when they were running manifold injection))

All of this being said, you CAN get bosch injectors with the jetronic clip. Not difficult.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US...2775993867.pdf

look through the list, see what you need. Contact bosch motorsport. Adapters may be your cheapest option. (mine were ~ $600 for 4 @ 950CC or 92# injectors and are rated for E100 continuous use)


Now arguments aside, I do agree. The injectors listed, (the new EV14 Bosch 380's) are your best "cheap" option. EV14's are a TON better than the DEKA's or EV6's from before.

drilling out injectors, while it works, is not good in a car that will be pushed as it does not atomize the fuel properly.




As for "your injectors do not atomize fully at 100% duty cycle" .. well.. properly sized no control circuit should EVER go above 85-90% duty cycle.

Hell, at idle I only pull 1.7% duty, and at WOT I am only at ~ 37% on pump fuel and no turbo.

 

well im gonna go ahead and get them flow tested to make sure they work. and im gonna ask if they can take a picture or video of the spray pattern as well. then im gonna try to reintall in my car and see of they work. i also just order a diffrent style of adapter the ones that are wired so that i have more room for the intercooler.

 

Too bad there's no known US source for them.

c

 

sure there is!

Just contact Mech Tronic and ask.
He is the official distributor in the US for bosch motorsports.


mech-tronic@verizon.net

happy motoring.

 

This is getting a bit absurd, honestly. I have no intention of starting a pissing match, but I spent exorbitant amounts of time researching injector options for not only this car, but also those that I've modified and self-tuned in the past. In this instance, I spoke with several shops that specialize in injector solutions, as well as the likes of Bosch and Siemens, directly.

There's a reason ANTI-ROTATION CLIPS exist. Care to guess why ? So the injectors don't rotate in the rail or manifold, because on a car with a split port manifold, you need the injectors to spray at the intake valves, NOT the manifold walls or port bridge. To an extent, sure, an injector that sprays a super fine mist at all fuel pressures and IDC's can get away with less than ideal or intended orientation, but most don't, and it's still not recommended because the fact remains that our intake manifold is a split port design. The Engineers of this motor went to lengths to ensure that a split cone injector was used on a split port manifold, matching the angles so that fuel is sprayed directly at the intake valves. We have the videos to refer to; JCW 380's, stock 340's, and all other tested solutions do not mist so finely that manifold and injectors configuration should be ignored.

If you review the complete Bosch injector Data Sheet, you'll notice something: That something is that all "dual cone" injectors of recent vintage call for an anti-rotation clip. Meanwhile, single wide, narrow, and "pencil" spray injectors, do not. What would you deduce from this ? For me, it means that the factory is noting the importance of maintaining proper engine-to-injector orientation of these specific units (dual cone).

If you take an intake manifold / valve arrangement that looks like this:


And require an injector that sprays like this:


Guess what happens when you rotate the pintle OR injector out of it's correct orientation.. It's super simple to see: If you rotated the shown injector or it's pintle 90 degrees, you would be doing nothing more than spraying the upper wall, lower wall, and central bridge with fuel.

Just because they have 4 holes in the pintle, doesn't mean they're "quad cone", which actually isn't even a thing; call Bosch on that one. There's not an injector out there that sprays 4 separate cones. Also, this really isn't even worth debating, because Bosch #0280196058 is clearly specified on Bosch's own Data Sheet as "dual cone", and comes with 4 spray orifices in order to produce those twin beams. "Quad Cone" is not a thing that exists, and it shouldn't, because there's not a single head orientation out there that requires such an elaborate pattern.

 

Yes, you are correct. But do you REALLY think that that cone trajectory is maintained with the drilled out directors in question.. that have 4 cones.. and are rotated. I was referring to the ones pictured.

Not to a bosch-made product (un-altered)
Which is why for those I was saying just have them flow tested.

and while it is ideal to have them at the back of the valves, even in split port design, it is really not that imperative.

there has been lots and lots of debate on this over time, and it has been shown, you are correct, that it IS better.. it is one of those more nit-picky "you are corrects" than a blow-it-out-of-the-water factors.

I sincerely would put my money on it that going from a flowbenched and accurate dual cone 380cc injector and dropping in a single cone into our cars would do absolutely nothing to the performance that could be noticed in car to the end user for 99% of the mini's in the mod scene.

Hell, mine are only single cone! and they are 950cc's!


u/ignitionmodule could comment more on this as he actually used to work for bosch injector division. If he calls me out as being grossly incorrect, I will eat my sock, but all of my work with it has shown that as far back as our injection point is from that flow path split, and the fact that the air in the runners is quite turbulent, it does not really matter.

so to sum up: you are correct, but for the small gains / benefits that offers, it is already grossly negated with the drilled-out injectors he has on hand. If they work they work, just make sure they are consistent. If he/she has more funds on hand later in life, and they really want to upgrade, they can.

and yes, they were re-assembled incorrectly.

 

so back to my question can a shop take them apart and resemble them? Because i highly doubt that the store i bought them form is gonna let me return them because i said they are not correctly assembled. but ill ask anyway.

 

answer: maybe? - I am assuming they can be taken apart as they most likely were when drilled but the question for most shops is that they

a. may not know how

or

b. may not be willing to

you can ask around, but it is not normal for people to take apart and modify injectors.
They take them apart when they drill out the larger holes (or should!) which is most likely how they got re-assembled incorrectly.

but I honestly have no idea how they are assembled. (factory) and much less of an idea as to how the company who modified them put them back together.
Press? crimp? screw? adhesive?

 

well i contacted the seller to see if they will let me exchange my injectors for new ones and explained whats wrong with them, now to just wait and see what the response will be.

 

Greekdrifter it looks like your problems are coming down to how you installed them...

I have a different variation of the genesis injectors and they work great....

Did you make sure the adapters are connected all the way?

I ran into misfire cyl 3 when I first installed then I went made sure the clips were on tight (it's really tight but cyl 3 injector went in all the way more for me

That fixed my problem the us car adapters that come with are really tight from the get go you have to muscle them on.

And my injectors has 4 nozzles they are ford racing units that genesis used

 

are your nozzels oriented the same way as mine or are they all in a row? you see my PM?

mine say ford on them too, dont know if they are racing units or not

 

post 58 is what i have


i honestly couldnt tell you about the nozzles....i didnt bother looking

 

damn they look the same but i can make out what the holes look like, did youlose get the same injectors too?

 

ok so now that everyone is in agreement that the nozzles are not clocked correctly what are they supposed to look like?

use paint like i did to explained please.... i know its crude but is it supposed to look like this? to me the nozzles look like it has two big and two small holes. are the big holes supposed to be horizontal and small vertical? or are my eyes bad and all the holes are the same size?

 

SoccerBummer: I'll concede that yes, if you have an injector that sprays a single very wide cone, and has awesome atomization at all pressures, you can use it safely on a split port manifold. That's not the case with these injectors though. Because they are twin beam (with fairly narrow cones), they need to be orientated near perfectly in order to direct the fuel to the valves.


Worth noting, is that Scott at USRT (Genesis) says they never ever drill injectors to increase flow rates. If and when they need to modify injectors, they use a "parts bin" approach, using brand new factory components to build a custom injector. This is what DeutschWerks, RC, and all the big boys do.

GreekDrifter: Can you decipher the last portion of those part# on those injectors ? I know they're ground-off, but is there one that will allow you to see the complete # ? I'm looking at the Bosch Excel Data Sheet right now, and I misspoke before; there are several injectors that share the 0280158xxx prefix. The "158" portion of the part# denotes that the injector is EV14. What follows is simply a production series #, not denoting anything specific about the injector.

I searched the spreadsheet for all 380cc (373cc) injectors with a 0280158xxx part#, and all 6 results that popped up are dual cone pattern injectors, with a cone separation angle of either 15 or 20 degrees. I was looking to see if maybe USRT (Genesis) was using a 380cc injector that had a single cone nozzle and readily available in the USA, and simply modifying them to have a dual cone spray nozzle, but maintaining 380cc flow (not drilling). It doesn't seem to be the case, though, as all 0280158xxx injectors already have a dual cone pattern.

I honestly don't know why those appear to be assembled incorrectly. Maybe it's a factory defect or they were damaged then repaired...or maybe Genesis is doing something with those injectors that I can't quite figure out. Regarding your question about the orifice configuration, I can only look at mine for comparison. I will say this though, I can't recall coming across any multi-orifice injector that had two different sized orifices. That's just my experience though.

Where did you get these injectors ?

 

we are in luck i was able to read the final numbers on one injector. so the whole number is "0280158056"......................

other markings say 5-30-05-11-092445 there is one that has a upside down triangle 5L2E-DIA there is this >PA6< and also a 060 inside of a pill shape circle, then there is the Ford logo the number 34 is engraved on the bodyand on the metal part of the body there is a QR code with numbers 80565 aobe it and 09300511 below it.


EDIT:

saw a link in a post a while back and on USRT's web site they show what the nozzle is supposed to look like for the 380's but im assuming this is for the extended nozzle type.
http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/products/injector/

 

Need help identifying these injectors. I purchased these new, they are supposed to be the Bosch 550cc 0280158117 6 hole injectors. The body of theses look the same they are stamped with the same numbers but when I recieved them they have a completely different nozzle. So now I'm not sure what they are.

If anyone has any info on these, or knows if they will work I would greatly appreciate the info.

Thanks

 

These are stamped

0 280 158 117
Also has >PA6<
And 927 inside a circle

 

I think you have a typo. Should be 0280158056, correct ? I don't know what all of the other numbers mean, but 3 of them certainly are a date of manufacture.

This is coming back as a Ford of Australia part#. EV14, and has a 267cc flow rate, using a wide (25 degree) single cone spray pattern. Maybe the skewed multi-orifice nozzles on those produce a wide single cone, but the original flow rate is still screwed-up. I've attached 2 files, which are screenshots of the specs for this injector.

 

no sir no typo

 

here is a pic

 

These are the stock injectors from a late model Ford Mustang GT500 (2009-2012 years I think). Definitely GT500 units though. And you're right, those tips are not what comes on them. Mynes simply resells these Mustang GT500 injectors. You can get them brand new for $70/each.

 

Yes, typo. You added an extra "0" after the "2"

 

sorry my bad hahahaha, so what does this tell me lol they are built right or not right?