I have a big question!

i just had a friend go and get dyno tuned and his afr's were great with the stock injectors. he was at 11 across the board and at 11.2 at redline. these are his mods.... alta intake, and silicone intake tube, 17% pulley, DT BPV, and JCW cat back.( he has a standered S). he made 203whp and 190wtrq with this custom tune before that the base line was 175whp...

the guy tunning him said that a normal JCW tune does not account for the smaller ports on the normal S and will not get the most out of it. and that adding 380's would only add marginal hp's and a bit of saftey at the top end.

so does this mean that with 380's there is a lot more modding to be done with the larger injectors? you know adding a header, a cam, a even smaller pulley(19%), GP IC... will not be pushing these that much?

because if thats the case i will be doing more mods, like a header and cam. and a GP intercooler. then getting a custom tune and not go with a jcw210 tune

 

still ok @380cc

 

whats ok?

anyway what im more worried about is the duty cycle of the injectors. i wouldnt want my injectors to be close to or at 100% all the time. which im sure my buddies are need to ask if he knows or not. and how the duty cyle would be like on the 380's

 

Even the stock 340's wouldn't be even close to 100% IDC "all the time". You'd only be at or close to 100% when running wide-open-throttle, which frankly shouldn't be very often unless you're tracking the car. The whole 100% IDC thing is so exaggerated and overblown. It's important, but people lack a general understanding of how this works. The concern is usually two fold: 1) They think they'll run super lean if they approach 100% IDC. And 2), worry that they'll overheat/overwork the injectors by keeping a coil (the injector) open and energized for a longer duration. 1) When you approach 100% IDC, it's almost always the case that your AFR is going to actually drop and get richer, because the injector is no longer pulsing, and is actually barely closing at this point. 2) While it's true that holding an injector open for extended periods of time causes heat and wear, how long can you possibly run WOT on a street car on public roads ?.. Again, not debating running properly sized injectors, but just putting some bad intell to rest. Also, it's impossible to run an injector past 100% IDC; it's not a real thing. IDC is not a flow rate, it is the percentage of time which an injector is activated or commanded open by the ECU. It cannot exceed 100%.


Regarding your friend who saw great AFR's on stock injectors with mentioned mods: This is exactly what I've found as well when searching for datalogged AFRs on R53s with common mods. 11-11.5 AFR is right where you want to be. Your friends AFR's show that running high IDC doesn't necessarily affect AFR's in a negative way (assuming his IDC is actually high, which we don't know...)

 

thanks big chill, and i asked he said he was at 90% IDC at WOT at 6800so if the 340s can handle these common mods why go for 380s? safer afr's at higher rpms? lower IDC maybe? would this mean when i get tuned the 380s could handle a header and cam that i want to get?

 

So put the 440cc injectors in with the WAY tune he did for my 380cc injectors, 17% pulley ect ect, I took car out to track beat the death out of the car, RAN awesome and no more lean codes, a lil bit of a low dirty idle, But that could be caused a lil bit by the light weight flywheel, wants to idle around 850 t0 900 RPMs now, if i could bump the idle up i think it would be perfect,

 

my genesis 380s from eurotunning came in... i find it interesting they ground off the serial numbers. at one part.

also these look like the right ones to you guys right?

i don't think im going to install until i do my header and cat-back. to much fuel right now probably

also they came with these adapters do i need them?

EDIT: big chill did you ever come across what afr's people had with the regular mods before tuning?

 

Yes, you need the adapters. In order to get them to fit under the intercooler, you'll need about 1/8" of washers beneath the top two intercooler hold-down bolts.

As suspected, certain iterations of the Genesis 380cc units are nothing more than the Bosch 380cc units I've been recommending; Bosch part# 0280158096, which is what I chose to run. I have the entire Bosch injector spreadsheet, and there are no other injectors that share the 0280158- prefix. Again, you can find these on Ebay for peanuts, as they're OEM in many newer Volvos, not to mention several European Ford models.

I found that folks with 15-17% pulley, intake, and exhaust were seeing ~10.5 AFR with untuned 380cc units installed. This is fine, and not overly rich, but far from ideal. 11.5 AFR is money. Also, the issue with running bigger injectors that aren't scaled, and running them with colder plugs is that you'll probably foul plugs pretty easily due to excessive fuel on cold-start with said colder plugs.

 

this is my buddys dyno graph and he still has his stock injectors. his pre-tun afrs (RED) are what concerning me right now that 12.5-14.5 is what is kinda scaring me but every car is diffrent.

so im not sure when im gonna install the 380's i think im gonna order a DT BPV and then do it so that i dont take things apart multiple times.

my buddy graph, he is a member on here to his name is heresmymind

 

That's dangerously lean, yes. Honestly, for the amount of money that members spend on various mods, I can't stress enough the value of investing in a Wideband AFR gauge setup. This is the first forced induction car that I've not installed one in.

I'm going to poke around for more dyno sheets showing AFR, ideally of untuned cars on stock injectors. I remember a members stating in his build thread that when running a 15% pulley, intake, and exhaust, he was seeing 11.2 - 11.5 AFR with stock and untuned injectors. Untuned 380cc units put him at 10.5 with the same modifications. I'll find that link.

 

Same here, first FI car i have not put a wide band on. and that beacsue i dont want to self tune this car i just want to put parts in and go get a final tune. i leave the self tuning for my other car. ill have to pull the wide band from my rx7 or my brothers evo and see what kind of afr's i have right now. but thats also a lot of work and its freezing out.

 

Are you running a catless exhaust system ? If so, you can just pull out your rear O2 sensor temporarily, and install the wideband in it's place. I think I'm going to pick up an AEM Uego in a week or so.

 

no not yet,i wont be getting a cat-less header or "cat-back" untill the spring time. to cold to do that kind of work now lol. and as soon as my dt bpv comes in ill be installing both injectors and bpv.

lets hope everything works out. with theses injectors

 

so i tried the injectors and they dont work. but ill try again because i feel it could have been user error. connector not plugged in all the way and a loose intercooler boot. i did not know it at the time but i broke the clamp on the small side of the intercooler

it was misfiring on cyl 1, 3, 4 and also told me cyl 4 injector signal error. and it took forever to crank over i primed the rail a few time then cranked and cranked and cranked then it started to stumble to life. then it was just misfiring and probably due the fuel not being sprayed at the valve.

also another thing is the holes in the injector don't line up in a row. so i think they are just spraying at the bridge or the walls. they were all crooked and not perfectly horizontal like the stock ones. if these dont work out im gonna just try to buy a set of real jcw injectors from rockauto. and if i can return these or sell them. to some vw guys.

 

^^ Those are drilled out injectors. Nothing to say that they do not flow fine, but If you plan on pushing your car I would have those injectors flow-benched just to make sure that even though your exhaust is saying fueling is on, one piston is not rich and another lean.

Guys, Don;t ever be afraid to contact bosch motorsports directly. They got back with me in about a week and put me in contact with their US distributor.

I ordered shorter injectors than stock due to upcoming build specs, but you can get injectors from bosch for a pretty descent price if you go through the proper chanels.

Mine are larger than most here will be running at 950cc, but they still idle the mini perfectly! (designed to run on a 1.4L) [note: I am running a vipec. These would not be possible on a factory mini ECU without some great amount of finagling]

You can get EV14 injectors, with a jetronic connector (not US car so you do not need to get adapter harnesses (our cars are jetronic factory)

note: my serial numbers are still here. (you will not find these on the bosch website as they were custom made by bosch motorsports.. but still. They would be able to look them up)





just make sure they are 14mm diameter, the length you need (mine are the short's -> 33.6mm , MINI's are standard length at ~ 48mm )
and a jetronic connector (or buy an adapter)

And it is always a good idea to get your injectors flow benched to make sure they are within a few % of one another!

 

hmm ill get them flowed.

are the little clips that hold the injectors in the rail critical? if not i could turn the injectors untill the holes line up with the ports. itll also give me a little more room with the intercooler. wich was way more than a 1/8" above the bolt holes.

 

see what i mean the spray holes dont line up horizontally thats how they look if they were installed. if i could turn them so the bigger holes sprayed into the ports it would work better right? the stock injectors just have two holes that are shoot perfectly into the ports and are horizontal.

 

This is what I meant by "questionable".

It sure would be nice to get some info regarding the "likely OE" injectors in the original post.

 

you could just buy one take pics right down serial nmbers and maybe get it benched and return it to rockauto. say you didnt want it

 

Well, I would actually like to buy the set and use them.

I was hoping ignitionmodule would get them tested since he works at SM and he was able to get a used JCW tested.

 

where do you guys recommend getting them flow becnhed?

last time i got injectors cleand and flowed was for my rx7 a long time ago and that was by witch hunter performance @ $22 a inj and $10 for flow test.

 

i omhed out the injectors for good measure they are all identical sitting at 12.5 ohms and found a place a buddy recommended http://www.injectorrx.com/

 

the "clocking" of the spray ports is non consequential.
if they opperate properly ( you will be able to tell in the flow bench) they should mist even at 100% duty cycle. Because of this, their clocking does not matter as they are all still "pointed" in the same direction. Also, due to the moving air in the runner, they do not even have to be pointing directly at the back of the valve. Within reason, they can be pointed at a different angle, but this would be referring to the angle of the bore for the injectors in the intake manifold.

As for turning the injectors, well, you can do what you like. Best of luck, because without a parts drawing, I personally would have no idea how thick that injection molded casing is. AKA, how deep could you turn it down before you accidentally went through the casing of the injector and exposed the guts?

Running blind in this situation.

Plus unless you have a mini lathe, I know mine would not like gripping onto an injector. haha. Thing is tiny!
Much less get it in the vise and have the tail end be concentric with the head.

 

no im not going to turn them on a lathe i mean pyscaly turn it clock wise or counter clock wise while they are installed with out the clips holding them on to the fuel rail, its the turn around time that killing me i wish there was a local shop around here that could flow injectors. snail mail is so slow especialy when its going across country

 

Yes, they are critical. If you don't install them, or install them incorrectly, the fuel pressure will push the injector out of the rail slightly, and you'll have raw fuel pissing all over the intake manifold. There's a reason they exist: That reason is to hold the injectors tightly in the rail, and to keep the orientation correct.

This is wholly inaccurate. Watch videos of dual cone injectors spraying; you'll notice that they shoot two pronounced "beams" of fuel. If the spray pintle is rotated past where it should be in relation to the injector's mounting position during routine operation, you're going to get misdirected spray. Regardless of how the injectors atomize at max duty cycle, these are meant to be dual cone, and for you to get the benefit of dual cone, you need each cone focused directly at the intake valves. Otherwise, you end up wetting the split port central bridge in the intake manifold, and will get dripping and fuel pooling. You spend the large majority of your time at a low duty cycle while driving, so consider that. Your injectors are hardly ever "misting". Injectors are built and orientated a specific way, and their functionality to an extent depends on that orientation; It matters. Those injectors were assembled incorrectly or damaged.

I can't say this enough: If you want 380cc injectors for your R53, nothing beats Bosch 0280158096 380's. They are newer tech than JCW 380's, but do require the adapters. I spent literally months on this; I've been through this with expert injector shops, bounced ideas off them, sent specs back & forth, etc. The work has already been done for you, just use it. Mine went in trouble free, I've never had a CEL, and the car runs perfectly.

Also, regarding the "JCW" units on RockAuto: As you know, they are not Siemens Deka units, and instead are low quality Standard Motor Products units; the same people that brought you such crappy components such as Delphi, Lucas, and Venom. I'd avoid those like the plauge, especially considering that IgnitionModule outwardly expressed that they had no data on file about the JCW units that they were supposedly modeled after.