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What intercooler are you running and how many miles on your car?
__________________ 2006 MINI Cooper S JCW GP--GP#1599 -Stock...I think?? 2008 MINI Cooper S R56--Astro Black/White--Gone -JCW Turbo | Aquamist HFS-3 Meth injection | RMW AP Tune | Helix FMIC | DDM CAI | Riss Racing Catless DP+Invidia Exhaust
Alta FMIC. 38K. The Knock sensor voltages are good and the PCM is NOT pulling timing. Jeff recently bumped it up 2 degrees. I haven't recorded the air intake temps recently but there was only a 15 degree rise last time I checked. I may check it again because weather up here just jumped to 90.
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2007 R56 with Thumper's TPR1; GT28RS; Alta 3" exhaust system, intercooler, boost / coolant temp gauges, AccessPort, manual boost controller; K & N air filter; OS Giken STR clutch, lightened flywheel, & LSD; misc fittings & couplers to make it all work; sweat & knuckle blood.
more info please i was thinking about doing the same thing GT28
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I rather be broke and happy than rich and miserable......
2008 R56 RMW Tuned, Alta CAI, DP and Exhaust, NN 22mm sway bar, NM lowering springs, ETC ETC.......225whp/236trq
more info please i was thinking about doing the same thing GT28
lol...read oldbrokenwind's pdf
He's detailed everything out about it. Listen to him, even he himself does not recommend it.
I still have no clue why people are so insistant on running GT28RS's on this motor. At this point, I say let you all try it and then maybe people will finally realize.
I might add...its not that it can't be made to work and make huge power, its just that I think 90% of the people that say they want a GT28 think they can just buy ATP's kit and bolt it on for $1200, get tuned and have a working car with 300hp. Far from the case...
__________________ 2006 MINI Cooper S JCW GP--GP#1599 -Stock...I think?? 2008 MINI Cooper S R56--Astro Black/White--Gone -JCW Turbo | Aquamist HFS-3 Meth injection | RMW AP Tune | Helix FMIC | DDM CAI | Riss Racing Catless DP+Invidia Exhaust
Last edited by ThumperMCS; 05-11-2011 at 01:09 PM.
Any ideas on a better turbo? I just choose the gt28rs because someone got 298hp with a 09 JCW. I'm open to ideas. Thanks in advance.
Ray
I k04 in my opinion is more suitble for this engine, depending on what rpm you aim to do. If my memory does not fail i think a gt28RS have no flowchart for more 2.5 Pr
From my experience, a gt28rs boosting 1.5 and the k04 at the same boost in the same intercooler there is a difrence of more than 10 C at the intake, that is easy expect when looking to the gt28rs flowchart against the k04 we did use.
Any ideas on a better turbo? I just choose the gt28rs because someone got 298hp with a 09 JCW. I'm open to ideas. Thanks in advance.
Ray
Well you already have what I'd recommend...although your numbers certainly don't make sense (still confused about that.... )
If you're running 27psi on Alta's hybrid billet turbo, your numbers should be crazy. But they are lower than people with the stock turbo?
A hybrid K03 (which is what you have) is the way to go. Or you can do a K04 like Miguel is talking about, but as you see that requires custom work as well. With a reworked K03 its a simple swap, and you'll make good power.
If you want to do Garrett, go with a GT25...but if you look at the data that Alta has, you'll see that even that has a big change in spool time vs a K03 based turbo and really isn't ideal.
__________________ 2006 MINI Cooper S JCW GP--GP#1599 -Stock...I think?? 2008 MINI Cooper S R56--Astro Black/White--Gone -JCW Turbo | Aquamist HFS-3 Meth injection | RMW AP Tune | Helix FMIC | DDM CAI | Riss Racing Catless DP+Invidia Exhaust
Any ideas on a better turbo? I just choose the gt28rs because someone got 298hp with a 09 JCW. I'm open to ideas. Thanks in advance.
Ray
As I understand auto mechanics, a turbo supplies positive air pressure to the intake manifold. The ECU (MAP) senses more air and pumps more gas to keep the mixture as set by the tuner. More gas = more power. Without a turbo or supercharger, there is only a vacuum, created by the pistons. Simplified and basic. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
You already have 27 PSI in the manifold, and it gets there at about 3000 RPM. A better choice would get you max boost at a lower RPM. The GT28RS needs about 3600 RPM to get max boost --- it's slower.
My upgrades are all "bolt-ons", well, maybe not the head. My belief is, you gotta improve the engine "breathing", that's why my first upgrade was the Thumper head. When I chose the Garrett, there was only a JCW turbo to compete with it, and I wanted the 3" exhaust feature of the GT28RS. If I did it again, I'd go with Alta's hybrid --- a lot less grief with making it fit and it stays connected to the ECU, so mapping is probably a lot easier.
If you can get the head updated, consider a camshaft set at the same time. Labor costs for head replacement are HUGE if you can't do it yourself. There's a person in the UK that went this way, with Schrick cams --- coopman7 on minitorque.com. Also used a GT28RS. I haven't checked that thread for awhile, or followed their progress.
Again, best of luck!
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2007 R56 with Thumper's TPR1; GT28RS; Alta 3" exhaust system, intercooler, boost / coolant temp gauges, AccessPort, manual boost controller; K & N air filter; OS Giken STR clutch, lightened flywheel, & LSD; misc fittings & couplers to make it all work; sweat & knuckle blood.
There's a person in the UK that went this way, with Schrick cams --- coopman7 on minitorque.com. Also used a GT28RS. I haven't checked that thread for awhile, or followed their progress.
Again, best of luck!
Even Coopman7 got fed up of trying to make it work, and he sold his various components and sold his car, he even asked for my help with his project, and the best advice I could give him, was to stop trying with the GT28 as it's a complete waste of time and money.
By the time it starts to build boost, around 3500 RPM, your window of usable boost is now only 2500 RPM pretty pointless really!
It takes a huge amount of air volume and speed to spool up an oversized turbo, and the standard N14 engine has not much of either!
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Performance Powered By Thought.
Engineered Horsepower.
Even Coopman7 got fed up of trying to make it work, and he sold his various components and sold his car, he even asked for my help with his project, and the best advice I could give him, was to stop trying with the GT28 as it's a complete waste of time and money.
By the time it starts to build boost, around 3500 RPM, your window of usable boost is now only 2500 RPM pretty pointless really!
It takes a huge amount of air volume and speed to spool up an oversized turbo, and the standard N14 engine has not much of either!
Thanx Czar, I was wondering what happened to his project. Your comments don't make me feel any better, but I plan on keeping my mistakes. It's still a whole lot of fun to drive. The tuners are still working on turning off my cel's. I'm confident that'll happen in the near future.
Also, Alta, Cobb, and RMW, all put my redline at 7000 RPM. That's a little more than 2500 usable boost, but your point is well taken and I hope more people consider the limitations.
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2007 R56 with Thumper's TPR1; GT28RS; Alta 3" exhaust system, intercooler, boost / coolant temp gauges, AccessPort, manual boost controller; K & N air filter; OS Giken STR clutch, lightened flywheel, & LSD; misc fittings & couplers to make it all work; sweat & knuckle blood.
Does anyone remember the Renault Fuego turbo. This was my first turbo car. MY 1982. Multiport fuel injected. High boost for it's time. Around 12 psi. I punched out the cat and tied up the wastegate with coat hangers to get more boost. Had problems with the intercooler and various hoses blowing up. Which I know now is because it didn't have any type of BOV.
Anyways this car didn't build much boost until it was in the 3500 rpm range. Same with my 1986 944 turbo. So if the gt28rs does this it's nothing new to me. My goal is to get close to 300 whp. I figure the usable rpm range will be 3500-7000. Right now with the Alta turbo doesn't start dropping off till 6800. Once I finish this project I'm thinking about building the lower end and head for 8000-8500 rpm. Then try for 400+hp. I don't know if the direct injection can supply enough fuel for this though. Time & money will tell.
You have two people who know a ton about this car (one of which prob knows more about it than anyone) telling you not to do it, and you still haven't changed your mind.
Good luck my friend
Why don't you build the motor FIRST, then find an appropriately sized turbo for your application? Theres a lot more that goes into choosing the correct turbo than picking it because it makes "xxx whp"
__________________ 2006 MINI Cooper S JCW GP--GP#1599 -Stock...I think?? 2008 MINI Cooper S R56--Astro Black/White--Gone -JCW Turbo | Aquamist HFS-3 Meth injection | RMW AP Tune | Helix FMIC | DDM CAI | Riss Racing Catless DP+Invidia Exhaust
Last edited by ThumperMCS; 05-11-2011 at 08:01 PM.
Does anyone remember the Renault Fuego turbo. This was my first turbo car. MY 1982. Multiport fuel injected. High boost for it's time. Around 12 psi. I punched out the cat and tied up the wastegate with coat hangers to get more boost. Had problems with the intercooler and various hoses blowing up. Which I know now is because it didn't have any type of BOV.
Anyways this car didn't build much boost until it was in the 3500 rpm range. Same with my 1986 944 turbo. So if the gt28rs does this it's nothing new to me. My goal is to get close to 300 whp. I figure the usable rpm range will be 3500-7000. Right now with the Alta turbo doesn't start dropping off till 6800. Once I finish this project I'm thinking about building the lower end and head for 8000-8500 rpm. Then try for 400+hp. I don't know if the direct injection can supply enough fuel for this though. Time & money will tell.
Let me suggest you talk to Jeff about tuning the GT28RS in a Mini. Both he and Tim at Cobb had my MCS on the dyno for over 3 hours getting the results charted in my diary / log. This after finding and fixing two separate problems with hardware. They can get great results by data-logging and emailing maps on Alta's hybrid because it's still controlled by the ECU. Mine was only the 5th Garrett / MCS Jeff worked on, so there's not a lot of experience mapping them, and each one is going to be different. That's part of my grief --- there's only a few tuners that use an AP on a Mini, and when a Garrett is involved, a dyno is mandatory. So far, there's two tuners with AP and a dyno on the west coast - Cobb and RMW. Jeff has a dyno but preferred to have Cobb do mine - serious expertise with the ECU.
Hope you start a thread when you get into your upgrades. There's a few people interested. Probably more than posted on this thread.
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2007 R56 with Thumper's TPR1; GT28RS; Alta 3" exhaust system, intercooler, boost / coolant temp gauges, AccessPort, manual boost controller; K & N air filter; OS Giken STR clutch, lightened flywheel, & LSD; misc fittings & couplers to make it all work; sweat & knuckle blood.
Does anyone remember the Renault Fuego turbo. This was my first turbo car. MY 1982. Multiport fuel injected. High boost for it's time. Around 12 psi. I punched out the cat and tied up the wastegate with coat hangers to get more boost. Had problems with the intercooler and various hoses blowing up. Which I know now is because it didn't have any type of BOV.
Anyways this car didn't build much boost until it was in the 3500 rpm range. Same with my 1986 944 turbo. So if the gt28rs does this it's nothing new to me. My goal is to get close to 300 whp. I figure the usable rpm range will be 3500-7000. Right now with the Alta turbo doesn't start dropping off till 6800. Once I finish this project I'm thinking about building the lower end and head for 8000-8500 rpm. Then try for 400+hp. I don't know if the direct injection can supply enough fuel for this though. Time & money will tell.
7,000 RPM on a stock head, stock valvetrain and stock camshafts! Are you aware of the stock camshafts peak power, duration and lift figures ?
8,000-8,500 RPM, I hope you've got BIG bucks and lady luck on your side too, as your certainly going to need it, your certainly enthusiastic, sadly your being very optimistic, maybe even a little naive as to the complexity in achieving your desired goal, especially when it comes to the fuelling.
However that said, I wish you good luck.
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Performance Powered By Thought.
Engineered Horsepower.
27psi is crazy high imo for the stock block (bottom end, pistons etc), but thats just my opinion, unless i missed that you've built it up. And seeing it only make 220 whp is weird too, i'm running 17 (holding, 20-21 psi peak) psi on a stock S turbo and see 215 whp.
I agree with the don't go GT28RS route-ee's here. Its much too large for a 1.6L, limitations in volume and breathing capability along with other factors is why people are seeing 3500 rpm's spool. Remember its the exhaust gases that spin the turbine wheel, which drives the compressor, bigger the turbo, bigger the turbine wheel, more resistance to overcome, longer it takes to spool. Of course this is a very simplified explanation, and I won't go into fluid dynamics lol.
And since I always go back into the VAG world, look at Stg 3 B5S4's putting down 500+ whp/wtq, running K04/RS6 hybrids, its not the bigger the turbo the bigger the hp. Fyi those are 2.7L biturbos, which would be more capable of running a bigger turbo anyways. But then again those are usually running stock airboxes too, and if I brought that into this forum there'd be lots of unhappy people defending their "cold" air intakes in the back of the hot engine. But hey, I'm one of them too
7,000 RPM on a stock head, stock valvetrain and stock camshafts! Are you aware of the stock camshafts peak power, duration and lift figures ?
8,000-8,500 RPM, I hope you've got BIG bucks and lady luck on your side too, as your certainly going to need it, your certainly enthusiastic, sadly your being very optimistic, maybe even a little naive as to the complexity in achieving your desired goal, especially when it comes to the fuelling.
However that said, I wish you good luck.
I'm paying attention here. Especially Thumper. I am gathering data and trying to decide what to do. Definetly not naive. I DO understand the complexity and the challenge ahead IF I decide to go through with it. I've been working closely with Jeff at Alta too. Whatever I decide to do I'll post.
Hi everyone. I thought I would let you know I decided to go with the GT28RS. I bought a kit that was previously installed on another 09 JCW. Also after doing further research I'm also gonna build the lower end. There seems to be an issue with the R56 engines of they are tuned and remain stock. I'm going to make detailed notes and take lots of pictures in case anyone is interested.
Also, Alta, Cobb, and RMW, all put my redline at 7000 RPM. That's a little more than 2500 usable boost, but your point is well taken and I hope more people consider the limitations.
Unfortunately, there’s no power (at least on a JCW turbo) made in that range.
I too have my redline set at 7K rpms but for one reason only... when I exit a turn, it allows me to have an extra 500 rpms before I have to shift.
Nothing worse than bouncing off the rev limiter coming out of a turn and having to shift immediately.
Anyone trying to use a GT28XX, well, good luck... you’ve got more patience and money than I.
Mark
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You know you're a racer if...When you refer to everything in life unmodified as "stock" or “factory.” OSCAR’S REBUILD
I just go with a GT28 71R on my 2010 s auto tranny, I am freak out with the over power. I will post numbers soon. I really dont know if is the intercooler but i have a precision 22"x9"x4" im running 12 PSI and this car is a beast aslo I have cobb accesport Stage 3
Last edited by cambunbosti; 10-14-2011 at 02:27 PM.
I'll just leave this here for any future posters who are considering installing a GT28RS in their MINI: Send me a PM. Seriously. If you've just gotten finished reading this thread and many others detailing all of the hardships that are required to get this turbo to work (and I use the word "work" loosely), rather then throw away your money give it to me. I'll send you my PayPal and you send me the money. Trust me it'll get better use that way. Thanks.
__________________ 2010 Mini Cooper S - Chili Red/Black
Automatic | Premium | Bluetooth / USB Adapter | Piano Black
... And some other nice parts
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aslo I have cobb accesport Stage 3
