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So 5 hp according to Mini? That might be a real world 1-2 hp
I thought it's usually opposite with BMW/MINI (real world performance better than published numbers). In any case, I don't think the 5 hp claim is from MINI.
I thought it's usually opposite with BMW/MINI (real world performance better than published numbers). In any case, I don't think the 5 hp claim is from MINI.
When they came out with the info on the 05' S, MINI cited better performance from the improved supercharger....and better acceleration from the revised gear ratio's. Mini did cite real HP numbers. So it is a REAL benefit. "The biggest changes to the MCS were found under the bonnet. A revised supercharger (the same found in the JCW kit) ECU, exhaust, and shorter gearing made the 2005 Cooper S a noticeably quicker car than models that preceded it."
"All these changes added up to a substantially improved MINI. The 2005 Cooper S saw it’s power go up to 170bhp (168hp) and was a noticeably quicker car. Both models were also much improved by the scores of new components and better production processes." MF buyers guide....http://www.motoringfile.com/mini-r50r53-buyers-guide/
__________________
l 2005 MCS l 11-04 Production l owned since new l RMW Tuned l Craven -17% Pulley l Craven Speed STD l Dinan CAI l JCW 380's l H&R 19 MM Swaybar l MSD Ignition l Power Steering Fan Duct l LightInSight l "EURO" MINI Armrest l Euro Parcel Shelf l Brake Light PULSAR(gen2)l Detroit Tuned Tensioner Stop l Blitzsafe/xmradio l Cobra 19IV CB l 4.5' Francis CB25 CB Antenna, mounted on the rear tow rig!!
wow only a few whp, that jcw supercharger sounds like its worth every penny... anyways i hope helix is taking first steps to develop an ic thats good as stock.
__________________ "... we need a ferrari, no two ferraris powersliding around a bentley that is also powersliding." - Jeremy Clarkson
^^^ clarification: didn't say "whp", it's crank hp, and the +5hp gain is listed due to the rotor coating, which was standard on all '05 and newer S/C's, not just the JCW - the JCW was rated higher than 168 (IIRC) - I think the (off-topic) point was when it's time to replace the S/C go for the newer...
+1 for the back on topic, though - anybody have any I/C comparison temps on that M7 "baby" scoop?
__________________ Sports Car Club of Vermont [SCCV.org]: A/X-TrackTT-IceTT-DD 2002MCS+:15%, Alta CAI, IE-style Custom Cat-back, Unichip Q, MSD, Brisk Silvers; ACT / Fidanza, B&M shifter; Hotchkis Springs & Control Arms, Alta 19mm, strut brace, Powerflex LCA's; Autometer gauges / Craven pods
People who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music.-anon
wow only a few whp, that jcw supercharger sounds like its worth every penny... anyways i hope helix is taking first steps to develop an ic thats good as stock.
^^^ I hope you're working on one BETTER than stock ...
__________________ Sports Car Club of Vermont [SCCV.org]: A/X-TrackTT-IceTT-DD 2002MCS+:15%, Alta CAI, IE-style Custom Cat-back, Unichip Q, MSD, Brisk Silvers; ACT / Fidanza, B&M shifter; Hotchkis Springs & Control Arms, Alta 19mm, strut brace, Powerflex LCA's; Autometer gauges / Craven pods
People who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music.-anon
Well remember that dyno numbers are the result of a discrete test in a specific situation. As I said there are coolers out there that can show gains with a single "Hail Mary" dyno run. What you don't see is how the coolers work in light-to-light or track situations. The answer is: not so good. The beauty of the GP intercooler is not that it has tremendous cooling efficieincy, but that it has good charge-air flow across the core and it's recovery rate is excellent. That's just not the case with aftermarket coolers. Because they have more mass, they stay hot once they are hot. In talking with our intercooler guy, his thoughts are that it would be very difficult to manufacture a very low-mass cooler with the repeatable, real-world results that the GP has. At the very least it would take custom bar mandrels, and some very fancy casting. The only way to really effectively lower IATs is to use water, which is a different order of magnutude cost-wise. A laminova core such as the one used by Defenders of Speed should be excellent, although I've never actually seen one in action. The real trick would be to have a water intercooler kit that was in line with the prices of air-to-air coolers, that had repeatable, real-world performance gains.
Well remember that dyno numbers are the result of a discrete test in a specific situation. As I said there are coolers out there that can show gains with a single "Hail Mary" dyno run. What you don't see is how the coolers work in light-to-light or track situations. The answer is: not so good.
I could not agree more. You need to match dyno testing with in-car datalogging. One also needs to understand that even the well designed IC's for the R53 are not big HP gainers. Instead, they are there to provide better consistency -- even as things heat-up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix13mini
The beauty of the GP intercooler is not that it has tremendous cooling efficieincy, but that it has good charge-air flow across the core and it's recovery rate is excellent. That's just not the case with aftermarket coolers. Because they have more mass, they stay hot once they are hot. . . .
I did a lot of investigation into materials because of this. You need to use a material that does not allow the H2O in the W2A to heat soak as easily. That's why the body of all DoS W2A's are plastic to avoid the heat transfer issues that aluminum bodied units possess. They are painted silver (or whatever other color the customer wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix13mini
The only way to really effectively lower IATs is to use water, which is a different order of magnutude cost-wise. A laminova core such as the one used by Defenders of Speed should be excellent, although I've never actually seen one in action. The real trick would be to have a water intercooler kit that was in line with the prices of air-to-air coolers, that had repeatable, real-world performance gains.
Doing anything better than stock at an air-to-air price point a really tricky proposition. The Laminova tubes are the price killer on our W2A products. However, we're constantly looking at ways that it can be done -- and we're by no means married to Laminova for cooling solutions.
The R53 is begging for a higher efficiency supercharger than the stock Eaton unit. A more efficient SC puts much less thermal load on the intercooler. I have seen some different types of superchargers on a few heavily modded 1.6L R53's and 2.0L 'Stroker' R53's. However, it's hard to develop and market parts like this and it tends to keep prices high.
I truly think that it's possible to put together a supercharger upgrade that's a bit more accessible to MINI performance enthusiasts. I've had some leads for a few months now, but supercharger development is a riskier proposition than intercoolers and CAI's. Would anyone be interested in upgrading their SC if DoS invests time into this effort?
..........I truly think that it's possible to put together a supercharger upgrade that's a bit more accessible to MINI performance enthusiasts. I've had some leads for a few months now, but supercharger development is a riskier proposition than intercoolers and CAI's. Would anyone be interested in upgrading their SC if DoS invests time into this effort?
YES!
we've been waiting
__________________ 2009 fJCW BamaCooperS's ole Red
Ah, I did read it incorrectly. Thanks for posting up the stats. Didn't they say the MINI also got more power from the new crank pulley in 05+?
It did create an improvement in acceleration, like revised gearing, but from what I understand...lighter crank pulleys, flywheels, etc just improve engine responsiveness... rev-ability if you will...not really added HP. This can be a double edged sword...a lighter flywheel clutch is harder to operate smoothly from starts, due to lower inertia (stored energy), but it allows the motor to rev up to rpm's quicker once fully engaged. Removing rotational weight does kinda have the same effect of adding HP in that it improves initial acceleration....to an extent...but once the motion has begun, there is little or no difference other than the lighter overall weight.
But lets get back on topic!!!
I can't wait to hear of the results of the install of the new intercooler....the GP intercooler seems to be a good solution for some users....I think what can be taken from the numbers being thrown around is that there is no ONE best intercooler....they all have their own specialization...some resist heat soak better....some are better in higher speed cruise. It would seem the most important thing is to pick the one that meets your needs best, and know that like a cam, it is a compromise of sorts, where you give up performance in one area, to get better in another area.
I would be very interested to hear what helix might have in mind. Lets face it...the OEM cooler is a pretty good compromise for most people, and the GP one give a bit more cooling capacity to maybe eek out a bit more timing advance from a cooler charge....a small evolutionary improvement, rather than a radical rethinking of the design. It keeps the same compromises, but is like so many other things, super-sized. Does the extra volume of the supercharger, and the associated penalty of a bit more lag due to increased volume make up for it? Apparently the engineers at MINI did their calculations, and said yes....heck, ever meet a German engineer that just did something cause they felt like it?!
To me it seems that on a pulley equipped car, especially a 17% or 19% reduction, the GP intercooler might be a natural fit. It would seem to overcome some of the Negatives of the pulleys...namely a warmer charge, and the possible change of timing due to this.
It has been basically proven that there will never likely be a commonly available, reliable, cost effective larger supercharger for the MINI's m-45, so we just have to compensate for its issues in the quest for more power...mainly heat production from higher boost levels. The GP intercooler just makes sense to me. Is it a silver bullet?
No. Will it make 10HP more or even 5? Most likely not. But in conjunction with the right tuning, etc, it seems that it should make HP production more consistent, and safer. Will it improve driveabilty....I hope so....especially on hot summer days...
Perhaps the Guys at Helix have some great ideas too...perhaps a radical air/water/air hybrid utilizing vacuum heat-pipes? Perhaps something more evolutionary? Perhaps adjustable thermal mass plates that you add or subtract to adjust the thermal capability and heat soak resistance of the intercooler?I would love to see it!! Heck, somebody might just get it right this time!! Please....pretty please!!!!!
__________________
l 2005 MCS l 11-04 Production l owned since new l RMW Tuned l Craven -17% Pulley l Craven Speed STD l Dinan CAI l JCW 380's l H&R 19 MM Swaybar l MSD Ignition l Power Steering Fan Duct l LightInSight l "EURO" MINI Armrest l Euro Parcel Shelf l Brake Light PULSAR(gen2)l Detroit Tuned Tensioner Stop l Blitzsafe/xmradio l Cobra 19IV CB l 4.5' Francis CB25 CB Antenna, mounted on the rear tow rig!!
I did a lot of investigation into materials because of this. You need to use a material that does not allow the H2O in the W2A to heat soak as easily. That's why the body of all DoS W2A's are plastic to avoid the heat transfer issues that aluminum bodied units possess. They are painted silver (or whatever other color the customer wants.
Good idea. Another way to do it is to move the majority of the thermal mass (water) away from the heat source (motor), and have adaquate cooling of that heat mass.
Good idea. Another way to do it is to move the majority of the thermal mass (water) away from the heat source (motor), and have adaquate cooling of that heat mass.
What about a bigger water reservoir that is boot mounted?
What about a bigger water reservoir that is boot mounted?
You also need to figure where you will have the heat exchanger that cools the fluid going to the reservoir. It will need very good airflow to bring down the water temps - water retains its heat longer than air - so once the total fluid mass is hot it will need very effective cooling to bring it back down so that it makes a difference in cooling the intake charge.
__________________ Stop - TSW rotors, Carbotech pads, Helix SS brake lines. Turn - TSW springs, Koni yellows, IE fixed camber plates, RSB, LCA's, Cusco LSD.
Go - Helix CAI ,15% pulley & 380cc injectors, RMW bumpstick & street header, RMW / Aquamist Meth injection, Brisk plugs, Jetex 65mm cat back, CM FX300 clutch & flywheel.
I truly think that it's possible to put together a supercharger upgrade that's a bit more accessible to MINI performance enthusiasts. I've had some leads for a few months now, but supercharger development is a riskier proposition than intercoolers and CAI's. Would anyone be interested in upgrading their SC if DoS invests time into this effort?
I would certainly be interested as long as it is a straight bolt-in and is visually difficult to distinguish from the stock Eaton.
I did a lot of investigation into materials because of this. You need to use a material that does not allow the H2O in the W2A to heat soak as easily. That's why the body of all DoS W2A's are plastic to avoid the heat transfer issues that aluminum bodied units possess. They are painted silver (or whatever other color the customer wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix13mini
Good idea. Another way to do it is to move the majority of the thermal mass (water) away from the heat source (motor), and have adaquate cooling of that heat mass.
True. That's also very important. There's very little water located directly over the heart of the motor in the DoS W2A system. The only water that's there is in the cores and the manifolds that go into them. The majority of the water is in the plumbing & heat exchanger. A heat shield on the bottom of the IC also helps to block engine heat.
You could go running lines to the boot or passenger compartment and place a larger tank there, but then the question becomes how much extra weight does one want to add to their car in the form of H2O?
I could not agree more. You need to match dyno testing with in-car datalogging. One also needs to understand that even the well designed IC's for the R53 are not big HP gainers. Instead, they are there to provide better consistency -- even as things heat-up.
I did a lot of investigation into materials because of this. You need to use a material that does not allow the H2O in the W2A to heat soak as easily. That's why the body of all DoS W2A's are plastic to avoid the heat transfer issues that aluminum bodied units possess. They are painted silver (or whatever other color the customer wants.
Doing anything better than stock at an air-to-air price point a really tricky proposition. The Laminova tubes are the price killer on our W2A products. However, we're constantly looking at ways that it can be done -- and we're by no means married to Laminova for cooling solutions.
The R53 is begging for a higher efficiency supercharger than the stock Eaton unit. A more efficient SC puts much less thermal load on the intercooler. I have seen some different types of superchargers on a few heavily modded 1.6L R53's and 2.0L 'Stroker' R53's. However, it's hard to develop and market parts like this and it tends to keep prices high.
I truly think that it's possible to put together a supercharger upgrade that's a bit more accessible to MINI performance enthusiasts. I've had some leads for a few months now, but supercharger development is a riskier proposition than intercoolers and CAI's. Would anyone be interested in upgrading their SC if DoS invests time into this effort?
I dunno Clint, seems to me the idea of a different or better SC will still be offset by the fact that it will almost always be bolted up to our 1.6L engines.......
Better in the regards that we can check the SC oil ? We were discussing that very issue at the shop yesterday. Seems that sealing the oil into a vacuum cavity is the best way to keep it on one place for any length of time. I would consider it a part much like the Low speed fan assemblies and those wanted to just change the .03 ohm reisister, the weak link in that part. Why do that when all the other parts have so much wear and tear.
Probably just better to swap out the whole thing at once and be done with it...But I find it a fascinating topic for another thread as I see it attracting vast responses
But....Getting back on topic.
I will post pics of install. I ordered the bonnet diverter piece as well, hopefully there is no modification needed to bolt it up. Real OEM uses rather generic and copied diagrams from other models....
There will some other goodies going in too, but that will be for another thread too.
__________________
2003 R53 - DS - 135K + Miles
Parts of MINI NOT Modded ( A Shorter List ) Block/Head/HK Stereo.
(sorry, postus interruptus) Mini'Mon: What about using "WaterWetter" or a similar product?
__________________ Sports Car Club of Vermont [SCCV.org]: A/X-TrackTT-IceTT-DD 2002MCS+:15%, Alta CAI, IE-style Custom Cat-back, Unichip Q, MSD, Brisk Silvers; ACT / Fidanza, B&M shifter; Hotchkis Springs & Control Arms, Alta 19mm, strut brace, Powerflex LCA's; Autometer gauges / Craven pods
People who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music.-anon
I will post pics of install. I ordered the bonnet diverter piece as well, hopefully there is no modification needed to bolt it up. Real OEM uses rather generic and copied diagrams from other models....
It's a straight bolt in if you have all the pieces: IC, rear IC brackets, scoop baffle (diverter), cover, etc.
(sorry, postus interruptus) Mini'Mon: What about using "WaterWetter" or a similar product?
Water Wetter is a great product. I mainly recommend it if you have a race car and can run straight distilled water in your car. The glycol in antifreeze does not transfer heat as well as water and therefore Water Wetter doesn't reap its full benefit on street cars.
Sorry that I partially hijacked Gray Raven's thread. I'll be happy to answer any other W2A questions that folks may have offline (PM, email, or another thread).
"... we need a ferrari, no two ferraris powersliding around a bentley that is also powersliding." - Jeremy Clarkson
Sports Car Club of Vermont [SCCV.org]: A/X-TrackTT-IceTT-DD
...
2009 fJCW BamaCooperS's ole Red
