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As you can tell by the first results the car in stock form put out more than expected even for a 2009 JCW: 216whp and 230tq.
The car sat on the dyno today with these performance upgrades:
1. FORGE Front Mount Intercooler
2. FORGE Turbo to IC charge pipe (rubber)
3. Craven hi-flow stock repalcement air filter
4. Firewall/noisemaker delete
One thing is for sure: Do not look at the PEAK dyno figures as they are of little to no use. Also I was a little saddened by the numbers below 5,000 RPM without the tune. I swear the car feels faster all around but the numbers just didnt make the grade on the dyno. The best areas of improvment with the aftermarket parts comes after 5,000 RPMs where I now measure upwards of 15-20whp increased by the time redline hits depending on the pull!
Other things to notice; the pulls when stock caused the Air Intake temperature to rise to 175 degrees F. Now on with the FMIC (same fans and all at the dyno) the intercooler only got to 125 degrees F. Even then on the street the Forge runs cooler than on the dyno; likewise with the stock FMIC. The temperature drop from stock in general can be as much as 50 degrees F.
The dyno operator wanted me to pay extra for the sniffer pipe and A/F readings but I declined. Maybe when I get my dimsport tune I'll have a dyno AF. In any case I figured out how to run the scangauge with Wideband A/F ratio - Thread located here: http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...ge-xgauge.html
The scangauge (Although slow as mollasses) showed 12.4 :1 A/F from 3000-6000 RPM. After 6000 RPM the A/F dropped a bit richer to 11.6 :1. I dont have any figures for when the car was stock unfortunatly.
Another thing of notice is the Forge FMIC no longer allows my car to run 20.5 PSI of boost as it once did with the stock IC. Instead the car can only push 18.5 PSI modified. I beleive the Forge IC allows the turbo to boost more efficiently, causeing the pressure drop of 2PSI. This is a good thing; because a tune-up back to 20PSI could add ~5% more output from the car. The Forge is more efficient because less blockage originally caused by the stock IC made the boost go higher than is needed to be. Dyno figures above 5000 RPM prove this as fact. Forge all the way!
Another few weeks and I'll get some Dimsport tunes for full RPM range increase. As we all know; and even with the Unichip; a tune will make the most power / cost sense.
I've attached a bunch of dyno charts to these posts. Each shows before and afters. Zoomed in dyno sheets also attached showing 5000+ rpm specific details.
I dont know what happened with one of the new pulls at 5000 RPM; theres a large dip which corrected itself the next run. Silly stock tunes I guess...
The dyno operator messed up my run #4 and therefore I only just firgured out how to see 4th gear on it.
This dyno sheet attached to this reply shows the worst run when stock against the best run now modified.
Please ask if you want particular runs posted here. I have the run data and can make any graph, correction factor, smoothing or comparison I can. I tried to post the run data files but the forum doesnt like them.
What was the best stock pull as opposed to the best and worst forge pull? Also sick numbers!! That's impressive.. You should look into the 2psi pressure drop. That doesn't make the turbo boost more efficiently but in turn making what the turbo is putting out is used more efficiently. If the factory fmic is causing a restriction then you would put out more boost instead of a pressure loss. Check for boost leaks. Thx for posting your info!
dude i dont think you would lose 2 psi across that core, maybe check for leaks as umsports said. I have never ran the forge but i do have the helix and i had the m7 intercooler before and never experienced a drop over .5 psi. very nice power out of your jcw, congrats
pressure drop with upgrading the intercooler is common. Yes it is cooling better now, but it seems this intercooler is more restrictive as the cost. Catch22. I doubt you have a leak.
There was a really good thread on a intercooler comparison on another board...ill see if i can find it.
Orange crush...when you dyno'ed was it set to imitate dynojet numbers or are those true dyno dynamic numbers?
pressure drop with upgrading the intercooler is common. Yes it is cooling better now, but it seems this intercooler is more restrictive as the cost. Catch22. I doubt you have a leak.
There was a really good thread on a intercooler comparison on another board...ill see if i can find it.
Orange crush...when you dyno'ed was it set to imitate dynojet numbers or are those true dyno dynamic numbers?
Agreed. I didn't want anyone to get pissy but that's exactly my thought as well. The larger core is allowing the air to stay in the i/c longer which allows for better cooling but unfortunately this may be at a fairly decent expense. I would however quickly run out of fingers and toes to count the times boost leaks have caused issues such as this so before asking them WTF is going on I would check it out.
A 2psi drop otherwise is something I would be PISSED about because it's advertised as a .2 drop correct? I wonder how this would work out in real world driving considering you would get more airflow over the factory i/c (as opposed to being on the dyno) and its allowing you to run more boost through the motor so you would expect this to almost void the gains shown on the dyno. If it is a boost leak then you can expect to make more power (obviously) the next time around which I would pumped about.
Wouldn't the huge drop in temps account for a good portion of that missing 2lbs of boost. Sure, you've lost 2lbs, but haven't you gained a much denser air charge due to the lower I/C outlet temps?
Air is more dense at lower temps so the boost levels should actually be higher if you want to go by these two laws..
Boyle's Law states that the volume of a given mass of gas at a given temperature varies inversely to it's pressure.
Which in turn means that pressure and volume of the gas are inversely proportional.
Charles Law states that a rise in temperature will expand the volume of a gas.
SO you would be able to push more boost in a given area if the temp was lower. So lowering the temps and lowering boost doesn't add up to me. The turbo doesn't care what happens after it expels the air excluding an impedance in flo new. For you this occurs with the addition of a new fmic. This new intercooler is more restrictive than the factory unit so you're getting a lower boost pressure than you previously had.
I wonder if since the turbo is running more efficently the boost has dropped. Obviously I have more power from the dyno graphs. It could also be mass airflow limiting; maybe the same or more air is going in more efficiently and the ECU is cutting off boost rise because the MAF metter is telling it to. Maybe the MAF is saying; "You now have enough air, so stop raising the boost".
You have more power because the air is cooler. That's not up for discussion. Your issue is why the drop in boost. Also the gains are bigger on a dyno due to decrease airflow through the intercooler. So to think this to be the best performance possible from the factory FMIC is incorrect. On the street it would have given you significantly cooler IAT's much closer in range to the aftermarket FMIC. Check for boost leaks and after that put the factory unit back on and test it again to verify numbers. If nothing changes and you still have a 2psi drop I would call whoever made it and send it to them to swap out because that's a fairly large drop for only a ~40-50% increase in size. I'm used to going from a 20x10x2.5 to a 24x12x4 and only experiencing a .2-.5psi.
Agreed. I didn't want anyone to get pissy but that's exactly my thought as well. The larger core is allowing the air to stay in the i/c longer which allows for better cooling but unfortunately this may be at a fairly decent expense. I would however quickly run out of fingers and toes to count the times boost leaks have caused issues such as this so before asking them WTF is going on I would check it out.
A 2psi drop otherwise is something I would be PISSED about because it's advertised as a .2 drop correct? I wonder how this would work out in real world driving considering you would get more airflow over the factory i/c (as opposed to being on the dyno) and its allowing you to run more boost through the motor so you would expect this to almost void the gains shown on the dyno. If it is a boost leak then you can expect to make more power (obviously) the next time around which I would pumped about.
A larger intercooler should never result in a higher pressure drop than a factory core. If it does then it is a poor core design (ebay core). Boost is essentially a restriction in flow and running a larger core should give more room for that air to flow. This would be shown even more so if you increased boost, the pressure drop on the factory core would probably go up exponentially while a good aftermarket core might show a slight linear increase.
I agree with you on the boost leak as a posibility though this would result in the turbo trying to fill that void and creating more heat offsetting the benefits of the new cooler. Another thing could be a cooler charge is resulting in more power and more air flow being seen by the ecu causing it to draw back boost to attempt to limit power.
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2009 Mini Cooper S
1991 Eagle Talon TSI AWD (the 800whp project)
1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD (wife's toy)
1986 BMW 325es (rusty but trusty)
Did you read my last post? We still experience drops but in the .2-.5psi range. 2psi is A LOT. I'm not sure about ecu limiting boost. The amount of air seen by the maf is the same.If that's the case then someone able to tune it like Jan should be able to adjust it so this doesn't happen.
Did you read my last post? We still experience drops but in the .2-.5psi range. 2psi is A LOT. I'm not sure about ecu limiting boost. The amount of air seen by the maf is the same.If that's the case then someone able to tune it like Jan should be able to adjust it so this doesn't happen.
And I am telling you that a good intercooler core and end tank design will see ~.2 to .5psi total pressure drop. I am talking a 12x4x28" core running well over 30psi of boost. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was stating that an efficient intercooler design should never ever under any circumstances perform worse than a factory intercooler including having more pressure drop. It should be the cause the least restriction while offering the best cooling properties.
You are right about the maf, the amount should be the same. A cooler denser charge should show in the readings of the o2 sensor. The ecu should be using the maf and the o2 sensor to determine how efficiently the engine is operating. I honestly think that this 2psi drop in boost pressure is ecu related. A leak would cause significant loss in power. A honest intercooler pressure drop would cause the turbo to work harder to get air to the other side of the core, thus killing turbine efficiency and creating more back pressure in the exhaust manifold. Both of these situations would kill power, not show an increase like the op has experienced.
__________________
2009 Mini Cooper S
1991 Eagle Talon TSI AWD (the 800whp project)
1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD (wife's toy)
1986 BMW 325es (rusty but trusty)
Hey guys, I went ahead and pressure tested the system with filtered air from my garage air compessor. The system held 25 PSI of pressure without any leaks. I pressure tested from the turbo outlet upstream; and surprisingly I didnt have to plug anything after the IC - I guess all the intake/exhaust valves were closed enough. Funy how not even the PCV leaked... Anyways, there are no leaks to speak of.
What I do want to try is going back to the stock airfilter. At the time of FMIC install, I also installed a drop-in replacement airfilter from Craven. I'll pop the stock one back in and report; however if the boost rises due to the paper air filter then it is obviously low-side pressure loss which caused the turbo to work harder for that extra 2psi.
I'll get back to this thread in about an hour with results.
I only have 2 more in stock.
then you have my ideal engine.....
