Intercooler Performance Gains?

[umsports]

It wasn't?? I've made a lot of money off that car so believe me it definitely gets raced. It's never once been in a car show so please don't mistake our demo car for my race car.

Again my discussion is for the R56 not my S14. I still stand by my point that both a nitrous bottle or a meth kit would have been both cheaper and resulted in a higher power gain. Since you're trying to justify your purchase continuing the convo doesn't get me anywhere but really re-read it all and give it a shot. If you still have the factory I/C I will paypal you $$ to pay for 3lbs of nitrous which is enough for several track nights if you can source a bottle to try it out. Me doing it won't convince you but you seeing for yourself will.

Prove me wrong. Take the car to the track and get a full pulls with the upgraded fmic then swap the factory unit on and make a pull and after that spray it down for 15s right before you hit the water pit. Do that before every single run and see what you get. Of course this needs to be done on the same night for consistency. I believe the factory i/c is fine but maybe it does need a bit of help after continuous runs at the track. If I'm wrong then I'm out $20-30 and if I'm right I'll save $600+ for not needing to upgrade because I can stand a tad bit of work the handful of times I'm at the drag strip and not on the street. You may not want to waste the time to test it but I think it would be worth finding out.

[ThumperMCS]

Dunno where you came from lol...but welcome.

I too was adamant about not changing the stock IC...citing that it doesn't really get heatsoaked, and if IAT's climb, they recover almost instantly. I quickly found out that is not really the case.

Not sure where you live, but here in AZ I saw 150F+ IAT's with the stock IC. On that occasion it was about 40F+ above ambient. Not acceptable for me, and bordering on dangerous. The amount of timing being pulled was incredible. And trust me, once the temps get up there...they really don't recover. At best, I would never see below 10 above ambient, and they would just climb up from there, amazingly quickly.

Fast forward, put the Helix IC on. WORLD WORLDS WORLDS of difference. You have to really beat this crap out of the car to get them to go more than 15 above ambient. Most of the time they hover 5-10 above ambient during hard driving. Whereas the second your on it with the stock IC, temps skyrocket.

I honestly was expecting to not feel a difference after installing it, and I went into it with low expectations. Boy was I wrong. The difference really is astonishing and I suggest you take another look at how grossly ineffective the stock IC is. I have been told that MINI is even doing a re-design of the stock IC because they were not satisfied with it. Aside from maybe a turboback, going with an aftermarket IC on this car provides the single biggest gain out of any bolt on part currently available.

I will agree with you though that with water/meth, the IC becomes pretty irrelevant. However, not many of us have them, and I am not satisfied with the ones available currently. So for now, the IC is the best way to go.

[umsports]

It would be simple to use something like the AEM kit. There's tons that are better but setting it up to come on at 10+lbs of boost is fairly simple. You would want to adjust the AFR under those conditions which would be tough to do without some sort of engine management. Maybe I'm wrong here but even the guys racing vettes are seeing IAT's above 160 under boost at the track(.8-.9bar) and no one is having an issue. It sure does help to reduce them at that extreme but considering someone earlier was saying 10-15 degrees above ambient is what he saw with the stock i/c I can't see the reason to change. Even the dyno's the companies produced showed it from 120 to 135 for the factory i/c. 135 is perfectly fine and that was on a dyno which is the worst condition of all. On the street it would be drastically improved. Again maybe I'm assuming highway driving but in stop and go driving since you're not able to beat on it anyway.. then what's problem? the taurus next to you wanna race? well you can't anyways since your in TRAFFIC. Where am I going wrong in my thoughts?

[ThumperMCS]

Originally Posted by umsports

It would be simple to use something like the AEM kit. There's tons that are better but setting it up to come on at 10+lbs of boost is fairly simple. You would want to adjust the AFR under those conditions which would be tough to do without some sort of engine management.

I would never use on of those.

It's junk for this car. Try tuning a car with one effectively....it's just not going to happen. Especially with how finicky the boost is on these cars. You'll get some benefit I'm sure, but it will be a complete headache to tune correctly.

Getting a water/meth kit that is tied to injector duty cycle is the only way to go. And since we are direct injection...its not as simple as you think, and there is one that is made specifically for our car, its just not out yet. Waiting patiently.

Then again, if you are spraying nitrous on the intercooler between sessions as your form of cooling, I doubt you'd want to spend $1k for a meth kit that works flawlessly.

[GO K4RT]

Originally Posted by ThumperMCS

I would never use on of those.

It's junk for this car. Try tuning a car with one effectively....it's just not going to happen. Especially with how finicky the boost is on these cars. You'll get some benefit I'm sure, but it will be a complete headache to tune correctly.

Getting a water/meth kit that is tied to injector duty cycle is the only way to go. And since you we are direct injection...its not as simple as you think, and there is one that is made specifically for our car, its just not out yet. Waiting patiently.

Then again, if you are spraying nitrous on the intercooler between sessions as your form of cooling, I doubt you'd want to spend $1k for a meth kit that works flawlessly.

I like you

[eg0911]

like i said before im not spraying nitrous on my 15 second car, thats just moronic, the gains on the helix intercooler are amazing dont knock it till you have tested one, i was letting you know my real world facts that i had, yes there would be gains from spraying the stock intercooler im not a moron i know what this does.

[umsports]

It's moronic to spray a quick shot of nitrous on the OUTSIDE of the intercooler for the handful of times you're at a track which requires you to wait an hour between runs?? Paying as much as you did for a simple intercooler was moronic IMO when it's only necessary at the drag strip.

Again I just don't feel like this is necessary for nearly everyone. I'm guessing if you're in areas where you have to race your car when its 100+ degrees outside then by all means go for it. Otherwise if you can remedy the problem if its only at the track then why not. Also, do you have your slips posted so I can see the difference between the 660' and 1320'?

[unclemeat]

And I really do appreciate it because finding solid numbers on this forum is brutal. When you're saying just a few degrees above ambient that is nothing at all which is a great selling point... However 10-15 above really is peanuts until we exceed ~130-140f+. At that point the intercooler is showing its inefficiencies due to either driving style and/or mods. This will still eventually occur even with an aftermarket upgrade after enough pulls. I can't anticipate seeing any sort of gain until the IAT's get to 125f.

As I said on page 1 of this thread, my stock JCW at stock boost levels (20psi btw) blew 175f degree hot air through the stock intercooler. Now with the Forge fmic I havnt seen anywhere above 30 ambient, meaning nothing above 105f.

Another great thing I notice is improvment from top to bottom all over the rpm range - and greatest up top. I have strong reason to believe that our stock intercoolers cause air flow restriction enough to incurr approximatly 10 hp lost above 4500 rpm.

I'll be placing my car on a dyno this thursday and will post before/after fmic when I get the sheet. I did the before pulls about a month ago.

One last thing. Nobody here really cares about comparing ~200 hp Mini cooper to your nitrous equipped land rockets. Minis are best a one thing - smoking cars in the corners all day long. You just cant do that with a dragster.

[umsports]

Good deal. Be sure to have them give it back to you uncorrected on both. Some shops will throw on huge correction factors which invalidate what actually happened during the pull. Also if you are experiencing 100+ degree temps I'm sure it would get heatsoaked a lot easier but not many of us experience 105 degree weather like you do. I personally know I'd die if it got that hot. Lol my wife is from texas and I'm from florida (Destin) but we rarely saw anything above low 90's.

[GO K4RT]

Umsports, you must not like consistant power output from your car? With things like intake temp timing correction available on even the most simple of stand alone ecus, you have to assume that BMW has a very advanced system for pulling power back as intake temps climb on these cars. Why spray nitrous on an intercooler if you can get one that doesn't need it and provides consistant temps that are always around ambient? That makes no sense and is a true waste of money. The fact of the matter is that these guys have a part that makes their car consistant day in and day out and doesn't require any special prep if they want to run a good time at the track or even better if they are running 20 minute sessions around a road course.

As for heat soak at a stand still. If your car is running, it won't be nearly as bad as if it is off because the engine is drawing air through it but it still gets warm. If you are sitting there with the car off, all of the engine heat is being absorbed by the intercooler pipes and is slowly soaking each and every part of your intake system.

[umsports]

Got a couple more pacemaker cases but in short my car does not experience heat soak therefore I was spitballin the idea of just spraying the i/c under unique circumstances like dynos and long waits at the track. Sorry I'm a cheapass and since I'm not experiencing high IATs I don't see a reason so that's why I suggested a cheap fix under those rare but difficult conditions.

[phillyMCS]

Will the Forge fmic fit with JCW aero kit with the brake ducts?

[Stig One]

yes

[umsports]

Correct. I would not spend 1k while I still had the factory turbo. Definitely overkill especially with the inability to drastically raise boost and increase timing. Turbo would be inefficient and I'm unaware of a tuning option other than RMW that would allow you to make your own maps.

Take a second to absorb my comment. For guys that are only experiencing high IAT's at the drag strip and on the dyno could cheaply fix the problem and probably never spend more than $100-$150 for YEARS to come. And since some people are paying in addition to have someone put it on could save even more by avoiding labor costs. Just a cheap tip that I've learned over the years. I could have upgraded to a 4" thick intercooler from my 3" but why when the only time it's an issue is when I'm at the drag strip which we'll attend every ~2 months. Less lag as well. I'll admit it's probably a minimal loss because even the helix and all aren't that big.

[ThumperMCS]

Originally Posted by umsports

Correct. I would not spend 1k while I still had the factory turbo. Definitely overkill especially with the inability to drastically raise boost and increase timing. Turbo would be inefficient and I'm unaware of a tuning option other than RMW that would allow you to make your own maps.

Take a second to absorb my comment. For guys that are only experiencing high IAT's at the drag strip and on the dyno could cheaply fix the problem and probably never spend more than $100-$150 for YEARS to come. And since some people are paying in addition to have someone put it on could save even more by avoiding labor costs. Just a cheap tip that I've learned over the years. I could have upgraded to a 4" thick intercooler from my 3" but why when the only time it's an issue is when I'm at the drag strip which we'll attend every ~2 months. Less lag as well. I'll admit it's probably a minimal loss because even the helix and all aren't that big.

The inability to raise boost and increase timing? We do have the ability to do both, and I run ~18psi. Why would you want to go any higher than that? And increase timing when going above say 20 psi?? Dunno how "drastic" your thinking of raising boost, but you're out of your mind if you want to go higher than that, kiss the motor goodbye, they're so damn fragile as it is. Keep in mind we have a 10.5:1 compression ratio...and they run lean as hell, with fairly aggressive timing for factory map.

"but its Direct Injection, its ok!" lol...

They will ping on the STOCK maping, boost, and timing levels. I have close ties to a MINI dealer and they currently have 4 R56 Cooper S's in the shop with blown motors. The one I saw today had a valve which had completely burnt a hole in itself, ultimately caused by detonation.

And about your IAT comment that we're all supposed to "absorb", the vast majority of us are NOT experiencing high IAT's only at the drag strip or dyno. I know my car has never seen a drag strip, and I don't dyno regularly. We experience it on them on the street....which is then amplified for those who track their cars and care about lap times.

[umsports]

Originally Posted by ThumperMCS

The inability to raise boost and increase timing? We do have the ability to do both, and I run ~18psi. Why would you want to go any higher than that? And increase timing when going above say 20 psi?? Dunno how "drastic" your thinking of raising boost, but you're out of your mind if you want to go higher than that, kiss the motor goodbye, they're so damn fragile as it is. Keep in mind we have a 10.5:1 compression ratio...and they run lean as hell, with fairly aggressive timing for factory map.

"but its Direct Injection, its ok!" lol...

They will ping on the STOCK maping, boost, and timing levels. I have close ties to a MINI dealer and they currently have 4 R56 Cooper S's in the shop with blown motors. The one I saw today had a valve which had completely burnt a hole in itself, ultimately caused by detonation.

And about your IAT comment that we're all supposed to "absorb", the vast majority of us are NOT experiencing high IAT's only at the drag strip or dyno. I know my car has never seen a drag strip, and I don't dyno regularly. We experience it on them on the street....which is then amplified for those who track their cars and care about lap times.

Ok.. guys are blowing motors from detonation im sure. If that's the case it's easily prevented with meth injection which is what we were commenting on. Now if you don't know anything about its capabilities then stop commenting now. If you need to brush up on your skills a little go troll over on evolutionm.net and see what the EVO guys are doing. Now while I realize this isn't an EVO it is a car that maintains the same principle and that is that METHANOL is highly resistant to detonation which means you can add more timing and more boost without the risk of going boom. And no what option do we have for tuning? Jan @ RMW? Sure that's great but that doesn't help peopleng who can do it themselves and he's not easily accessible and that is a terrible option since you can't retune easily or make adjustments. We need something like Nistune, Hydra, Hondata, AEM, Haltech, etc.. something that is capable of tuning in real time. There are plenty people capable of tuning these cars if given the capability. Maybe someone is working on something??

[old81]

umsports, I have a basic on topic question?

Are you planning on discussing tuning of your MINI on this forum or only your 240?

I would really like to see what you plan to do or are doing with your MINI, nothing else.

I have built a couple JDM engines in the past as well as some fine Alfa Romeo and BMW race engines.

Just wondering.

Btw, I will have some very simple before an after statistics from my helix IC install by this weekend. Nothing in depth until I can get back to the dyno shop for grins.

My goal is driveability (sp) day to day and fun on track lapping days.

Thank you,
Don

[ThumperMCS]

Originally Posted by umsports

Ok.. guys are blowing motors from detonation im sure. If that's the case it's easily prevented with meth injection which is what we were commenting on. Now if you don't know anything about its capabilities then stop commenting now. If you need to brush up on your skills a little go troll over on evolutionm.net and see what the EVO guys are doing. Now while I realize this isn't an EVO it is a car that maintains the same principle and that is that METHANOL is highly resistant to detonation which means you can add more timing and more boost without the risk of going boom. And no what option do we have for tuning? Jan @ RMW? Sure that's great but that doesn't help peopleng who can do it themselves and he's not easily accessible and that is a terrible option since you can't retune easily or make adjustments. We need something like Nistune, Hydra, Hondata, AEM, Haltech, etc.. something that is capable of tuning in real time. There are plenty people capable of tuning these cars if given the capability. Maybe someone is working on something??

Ok....that's great that you are so experienced with a DSM car...props to you and your car. You are going to quickly find that a lot of the same principles WILL NOT apply to your MINI.

You are not going to see anything where you can easily tune your car on the fly like the products you listed. If it ever does happen, its going to be VERY expensive...something that you definitely would think is a "waste" of money, just because you are used to tuning products from the Japanese market.

And yes I'm very aware of the principles and benefits of running meth. I plan on running meth when the proper kit comes out. However, the 4 cars with blown motors that I mentioned in my previous post were STOCK. You should not have to run meth on a stock car to prevent detonation. I used them as an example to show you that a) these motors are fragile b) there is a very fine line when it comes to tuning these cars on what is safe and what will grenade the motor. You can't just "add fuel and timing and crank up the boost" and get results. Your motor will be gone.

Judging from your posts though you are not going to agree with anything we say and are pretty firm in your knowledge. If you plan on doing stuff to your MINI like you did your 240, you will quickly begin scratching your head as to why you're just not getting results or why things just aren't working like they are supposed to.

[umsports]

Originally Posted by ThumperMCS

However, the 4 cars with blown motors that I mentioned in my previous post were STOCK. You should not have to run meth on a stock car to prevent detonation

Honestly man.. you're exactly right. That is absolutely pathetic of MINI for making a car that blows up in factory form. I haven't seen anything from mine to display that but if that is the case that is pathetic. Every car should be "overbuilt" to a small extent. Looks like it can take a little more though otherwise people wouldn't be able to take their car to guys like Jan and continue to drive them for a while. I doubt his tune is safer than MINI's.. just extracting more power within a safe limit by adding boost, fuel and probably a little timing if possible.

By running a slightly larger turbo I can run less boost and make the same if not more power which is far safer than pushing the stock turbo to 18+lbs. I feel as if 17-18 is about all the little hairdryer can push "efficiently" so I'm searching for a cheap stock turbo so I can take it apart and see what can be done. If you got any leads on a factory turbo please let me know. Far more power will be gained from a larger compressor and turbine wheel than anything else. Imagine only needing to run ≤ 1 bar to achieve the same airflow that the factory takes 18lbs to do. The car will be substantially safer in regards to longevity and performance. It would also make the IAT's significantly lower since the turbo isn't go beyond it's peak efficiency range!

[isaac012]

You HAVE to tell us about what you find with your turbo investigations. I get frustrated with some of these posters because they spend insane amounts of money for very little gain and then talk about how amazing it is.

I think what you were saying about the stock turbo makes sense. The whole inadequate IC business becomes irrelevant if the turbo isn't working as hard. Plus, if it's not working as hard, we don't have to worry about the durability issues. I wonder what RMW could do with an upgraded stock turbo?!

[umsports]

Originally Posted by isaac012

You HAVE to tell us about what you find with your turbo investigations. I get frustrated with some of these posters because they spend insane amounts of money for very little gain and then talk about how amazing it is.

I think what you were saying about the stock turbo makes sense. The whole inadequate IC business becomes irrelevant if the turbo isn't working as hard. Plus, if it's not working as hard, we don't have to worry about the durability issues. I wonder what RMW could do with an upgraded stock turbo?!

Amen brother. It's hard to find solid information because a lot of people have bought into some marketing pitches and take it as fact.

The intercooler is more than adequate from the factory and before buying an upgrade people should actually log their IAT's and see for themselves. High IAT's in traffic is absolutely retarded to quote, I'm talking real driving.

Plus, why aren't people looking into intercooler diverters?? At least max out the factory unit before upgrading and that's something I've yet to see done. I didn't realize this existed but I'm willing to bet it would cure any IAT's issues people are having.
http://www.mini-madness.com/madness-...-diverter.aspx

A car on the dyno is a terrible representation of an intercoolers efficiencies. Get it on the road with real airflow and viola you get better IAT's. Also, a 2psi pressure drop is inexcusable for such a small intercooler as has been previously posted. I just wish people would stop with the fanboy crap and really learn what it takes to make more power. A "CAI" that draws hot air doesn't do it. Neither do "boost tubes". Sure it helps but come on.. do you really think they left that much on the table that you could slap on a new silicone hose kit and gain a massive chunk of power?? So far most guys are paying $100+ per HP which is mind boggling.

I absolutely plan to upgrade the compressor and turbine wheels but at this moment I can't find a "used" turbo that's in the price range I'm looking for. I'd love to find a blown turbo because I don't plan to reuse the wheels anyway. If you find anything let me know.

[ThumperMCS]

Originally Posted by umsports

Neither do "boost tubes". Sure it helps but come on.. do you really think they left that much on the table that you could slap on a new silicone hose kit and gain a massive chunk of power?? So far most guys are paying $100+ per HP which is mind boggling.

While I still strongly disagree with your intercooler views...you are dead on with the CAI and boost tube comment! You said it perfectly about the boost tubes.

[tgs91]

Originally Posted by umsports

A "CAI" that draws hot air doesn't do it.

Amen to that, check out the Defenders of Speed CAI. Uses the Cowl Air Induction that GM came up with in the 60's.

[GO K4RT]

Fun facts. More timing does not always equal more power ;), a larger intercooler does not always mean slower spool ;), and sudden drastic temp changes on on your paint is not a good thing.

I am still trying to grasp this thought process of not putting money into parts that help to maximize another parts performance and instead do band aid fixes.

Hey thumper have you ever considered finding a way to log pre intercooler temps? I would be curious to see how hot the air is at stock and raised boost levels.

[umsports]

Originally Posted by GO K4RT

Fun facts. More timing does not always equal more power ;), a larger intercooler does not always mean slower spool ;), and sudden drastic temp changes on on your paint is not a good thing.

I am still trying to grasp this thought process of not putting money into parts that help to maximize another parts performance and instead do band aid fixes.

Hey thumper have you ever considered finding a way to log pre intercooler temps? I would be curious to see how hot the air is at stock and raised boost levels.

No ****. Of course there's a point of diminished returns. Don't talk down to me like I don't know what I'm doing. Here's my car and me in the drivers seat! I mean **** I've tuned and built everything on my 240 and know how to make big numbers out of a 4 cyl. So stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIIYmdzMUes that's me in the drivers seat, tuning my own car and doing a damn good job! Bone stock head with a built bottom end. I hate to have to reference another car but you're trying to make it seem as if I dont know how to change a tire.

Ok one last time:

I AM NOT EXPERIENCING HIGH IATS!! I'm not driving around in 100+ degree weather and have no reason to replace something that is doing its job perfectly. Which is why I've continued to ask for IAT logs and before and after teps not butt dyno comments. You don't read my posts just take bits and pieces which is annoying so continue to show me your brilliance when I have to repeat 10x's that I'm not having any problems or IAT's out of range. Do I need to type it again for ya? Does your DSM actually run? Ever turn a wrench or just read super street?

here's a pic of my mini on the lot when we bought it.. http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/k...8.jpg&newest=1

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/k...t=DSC01821.jpg