What buffer to buy?

[chows4us]

For the pros ... which buffer do I buy?

I want something to just buff out the wax ... thats it, not apply it.

I see http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/S...0+116191430 6

But which pads to buy? or is another polisher better?

[Donna/Mike]

Here is another one you might be interested in. This is the one we have and it's great!

http://www.meguiars.com/?logo-access...Orbital-Buffer

Donna

[whskysouth]

delete

[skitelluride531]

If the sole purpose of the buffer is to buff off wax, then any oribital buffer will do (such as one from pepboys).

As far as the pad, when you are buffing OFF wax, the pad is not the most important thing. The more important thing to worry about is what bonnet you use over the pad. Personally, I would recommend any high quality microfiber bonnet that you can find. I know Meguiars makes some, but they are discontinued if I remember correctly.

[kenchan]

i have specific wax and polish removal orbital bonnets but never used it.

it's better imho to use a MF Monster Fuffy to remove wax. why? cause
the MF bonnets tends to build up wax that you removed and after a while,
it could heat up changing the molecular bond of the wax to the paint.

they recommend to use 3 bonnets per car... i have 3 each brand new,
never used.

i sound octanguyish (?) i impressed myself. lol

[ImagoX]

I agree with Kenchan... if you're looking to REMOVE the wax then you should just use the Detailers Paradise 's Monster Fluffy cloth by hand. If you're doing the waxing properly and waiting until the wax "cures" properly (drag a finger through the wax after about 30 minutes - if it comes right off like powder, revealing a clear streak and DOES NOT SMEAR then its ready) then the removal should be almost effortless.

APPLYING the wax, however, is a different animal altogether. Since most waxes work best when applied very evenly and as thinly as possible, a mechanical device like a RO is indeed the best way to go, both for the minimzation of "elbow grease" and for the thinnest and most even coating. If this is JUST FOR WAX, I'd just start with the $30 random orbital "car polisher" that you see at places like Pep Boys and Target. You don't need to press down hard to evenly apply wax, so the pathetically weak motors in the $30 jobbies won't be a drawback. The cheapie units are useless for POLISHING (they just stop moving wheh you try leaning into them) but they're OK for wax application. If the detailing bug bites you harder later on, you can always "upgrade" to the Porter Cable, which is good for waxing AND polishing both.

One last thing - the cheapie ones tend to have large, 10" pads, so precision application will be nearly implssible. If you're doing an all-over waxing, do yourself a favor and get a roll of 2" masking tape from a hardware store, and tape off the trim. Wax on trim = lots of PIA to remove it, so taking 15-20 min. to tape off will actually SAVE you lots of time and effort later.



Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

[agranger]

Originally Posted by ImagoX

Wax on trim = lots of PIA to remove it, so taking 15-20 min. to tape off will actually SAVE you lots of time and effort later.

Imagox,

Those cowl vents (under the windshield wipers) pop right out. Take a small, flat-bladed screwdriver, insert it down into one of the hexagonal holes and then lift up a bit while applying pressure towards the rear of the car... like you want to slide the vent up and along the plane of the windshield. It will pop right out with a slight bit of pressure.

If you get polish on them (like I did) and let it dry by mistake (like I did), and discover that no amount of soaking and scrubbing will get the dried, nasty polish out of those holes (like I did), you can buy those pieces from a dealership for $7-8 each (like my OCD forced me to do )

[agranger]

I'll agree with the posts above... Removing wax from a properly maintained surface (claybared once a year or so and smooth, glossy paint) shouldn't be that hard to do by hand w/ a microfiber... maybe add a spritz of a matching detailing spray if things get tough.

On the rare occasion that I'm looking to get some more muscle on a tough patch, I've dropped one of my fluffy microfibers on the car and then applied my Porter Cable Dual Action polisher (w/ a stiff foam pad) to the towel. This lets you buff off the wax, flip the towel and give a final buff w/ the clean side of the microfiber.

If you are going to go ahead and buy one of these tools, get one with enough muscle to polish your car when you need something to correct some paint flaws or shine 'er up for a show / spring cleaning. For polish, wax and sealant application, I like a set of foam pads... the stiffer pads are for more agressive polishes. Sonus makes good pads that I use. I've heard good things about the Meguiars foam pads as well.

As for the machine, I love my PCDA... It's built well (you gotta love Porter Cable) and easy to use (it doesn't wear you out with fighting the machine). I'd worry that a cordless product wouldn't have enough power for me to finish an agressive refinishing, but I haven't owned a cordless polisher, so I'm just guessing here and applying my own biases about cordless products I used 7-10 years ago... I'm sure that there are much better products than what I used back then.

Meguiars used to sell a rebranded PCDA. www.autopia-carcare.com also sold a PCDA polisher w/ Sonus pad kit (where I got started) that went on sale once or twice a year.

[ImagoX]

Yeah, since then I've learned about this trick... Although taping them only takes a few seconds, too... But thanks!

Oh, and Q-tips with a little Wizards Black Renew (available from Detailers Paradise) should get out any wax crusted inside the hex holes with just a bit of elbow grease.

[Detailers Paradise]

Ditto on everyone else's posts...

Wax removal is really easier and more efficient by hand if you're using a good quality (read: thick/plush and high thread count, at least more than 150,000 threads per square inch). I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it really is true! Of course, it helps if you're using a good quality wax too. Many of the cheap and/or old school waxes are difficult to work with (on and off).

I won't reinterate all the other good points already made... just ditto!

As you probably already know, we carry the plush microfiber cloths, quality waxes, and the Porter Cable DA polisher, should you decide to go that route.

Microfiber

Good luck and have fun!

-Heather

[chows4us]

Originally Posted by Detailers Paradise

Wax removal is really easier and more efficient by hand if you're using a good quality (read: thick/plush and high thread count, at least more than 150,000 threads per square inch). I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it really is true!


-Heather

Heather ... Agranger, Octane all the other detailing gurus ... old thread but since the winter is about over, I'm back to considering that dual-action PC.

Now the question is. Ive read about every web site tutorial I can find on using this buffer and all the different pads including the MF pads that go on top of the white pad or a pad meant to go under the MF.

But ... every tutorial says exactly what Heather says here.

In other words, for polish, I would use Klasse twins (including the glaze). OK, thats fine.

But to add carnuaba, they all say apply it with the PC, and hand buff off because the PC does a lousy job of polishing it or leave a lot of white stuff.

Then whats the point of using the PC? Just to apply the wax ... thats pretty easy to do by hand ... why invest $120 plus the cost of pads to just apply the wax? What am I missing here?

I can see maybe if its your business to detail but for personal use? ... Especially if its a liquid wax and its trivial. For something like pinnacle sourveign, a bit harder.

Zaino also does not recommend, on their website, using and buffer. Whats the deal there?

Also, do you use the buffer on the clearbra which is supposed to be waxed???

[OctaneGuy]

Glad that you're doing lots of reading, but I have to question exactly what you are reading?? Sounds like you either need to qualify what you read or maybe just get out there and try some hands on work.

Why use a PC??
Take a look at this picture. When was the last time you were able to get results like this in 15 minutes by hand???



This one took longer but still, it's the result of a buffer


In case you don't know what you are seeing--it's the scratched/swirled out paint that is quite common on everybody's care. I taped off one half, and worked on one side, then pulled off the tape so you can see the side by side results.

The PC allows you to fix defects in your paint, like scratches and swirls, as well as apply and remove wax. Some paste waxes might be too sticky to remove by PC, but for liquid waxes that dry to a haze that can be easily wiped off, doing it by PC ensures, that you don't unintentionally instill new scratches or swirls in your paint as you wipe the wax off. Some paints are scratch sensitive and will scratch this easily. My Jet Black paint scratches very easily.

Applying wax with a PC ensures a uniform evenly thin layer of wax over the entire car. Thus removal is much easier as well.

There are lots of benefits to using a PC, but if you're still trying to convince yourself, it's very possible that it's not the tool for you.

re: Zaino
If you work within a system--Meguiars, Prima, Zaino, etc...--everybody has their recommendations. Historically (until recently), Zaino products were not designed to remove swirls from your paint. A PC offered no value for this type of system.

re: Clearbra
You can safely polish over clearbar.

Richard

Originally Posted by chows4us

Heather ... Agranger, Octane all the other detailing gurus ... old thread but since the winter is about over, I'm back to considering that dual-action PC.

Now the question is. Ive read about every web site tutorial I can find on using this buffer and all the different pads including the MF pads that go on top of the white pad or a pad meant to go under the MF.

But ... every tutorial says exactly what Heather says here.

In other words, for polish, I would use Klasse twins (including the glaze). OK, thats fine.

But to add carnuaba, they all say apply it with the PC, and hand buff off because the PC does a lousy job of polishing it or leave a lot of white stuff.

Then whats the point of using the PC? Just to apply the wax ... thats pretty easy to do by hand ... why invest $120 plus the cost of pads to just apply the wax? What am I missing here?

I can see maybe if its your business to detail but for personal use? ... Especially if its a liquid wax and its trivial. For something like pinnacle sourveign, a bit harder.

Zaino also does not recommend, on their website, using and buffer. Whats the deal there?

Also, do you use the buffer on the clearbra which is supposed to be waxed???

[Detailers Paradise]

Originally Posted by chows4us

Heather ... Agranger, Octane all the other detailing gurus ... old thread but since the winter is about over, I'm back to considering that dual-action PC.

Now the question is. Ive read about every web site tutorial I can find on using this buffer and all the different pads including the MF pads that go on top of the white pad or a pad meant to go under the MF.

But ... every tutorial says exactly what Heather says here.

In other words, for polish, I would use Klasse twins (including the glaze). OK, thats fine.

Re: Wax removal/buffing by hand vs. the PC
As you quoted me from a previous post, I really think wax removal is significantly easier to do with a high quality MF cloth than it is with the PC. Many others I know agree. However, there are also many people who love and swear by the MF bonnets for wax removal with the PC. It's simply one of those topics (like many really!) where it comes down to personal preference. I can tell you what most prefer from my experience and statistically speaking you're likely to agree; however, you may find you like the complete opposite than the majority.

Here's an idea... is there someone nearby or in your local club with a PC? Try their PC! That way you can more accurately assess if you'd like to use it for what you're doing.

-Heather

[chows4us]

Originally Posted by Detailers Paradise

Here's an idea... is there someone nearby or in your local club with a PC? Try their PC! That way you can more accurately assess if you'd like to use it for what you're doing.

-Heather

Heather and Octane ... new question. See I'm trying to justify the cost with the better half

What about this buffer? Cycle with dual heads?

http://autogeek.net/cyclo-polishers.html

More money but is it any better than the PC?

[Detailers Paradise]

Originally Posted by chows4us

Heather and Octane ... new question. See I'm trying to justify the cost with the better half

What about this buffer? Cycle with dual heads?

http://autogeek.net/cyclo-polishers.html

More money but is it any better than the PC?

Yes and no.

It is more versitle than the PC in that the dual heads can accommodate various brushes and other accessories. So, you can use it for tasks beyond traditional polishing/waxing (like carpet cleaning, aluminum polishing, tile/grout cleaning, plexiglass repair, chrome polishing, etc). (note that technically you can attach these same attachments to the single head of the PC but you don't have the dual-head advantage)

Both the Cyclo and the PC use the same random-orbital, dual-action movement. So they are equally safe to use. Both have plenty of torque to effectively move around an abrasive polish and allow its diminishing abrasives to diminish properly.

The Cyclo does have a little more torque than the PC, so technically it is a little more effective at getting the job done. However, we've found that in most cases you don't need this additional edge anyway! There have been only a few instances when we've grabbed the Cyclo after pushing the PC (and the most abrasive chemical and most aggressive pad) to its limit. The Cyclo can take polishing just a bit further than the PC.

The Cyclo does not have a variable speed. The PC does. That said, we haven't found too many situations in which we were using the Cyclo and wished it had the variable speed.

The Cyclo is louder and vibrates considerably more than the PC. But, if you've never used the PC you probably wouldn't notice.

In summary, if you don't need the additional uses that the Cyclo offers, then you might as well spend less and get the PC. Either way though, you can't go wrong. Both are excellent, well-built, safe, and effective machines.

Hey, go with whichever is easiest to "sell" to your other half!

-Heather

[OctaneGuy]

Although I have never used a Cyclo (we got one here in the shop I just haven't had time to play with), I know some users swear by it and other think it's too bulky compared to the PC. Our cycl (model 5) has only an On and Off switch. No variable speed unlike a PC.

Search on Meguiarsonline.com for the cyclo and you will find some responses there.

I still have to ask you, why would you spend more money if all you care about is removing wax??? How do you define "better"?

I could make a case and say my Makita 9227 rotary buffer is better than my PC, it also costs twice as much. But I can't use that tool for removing wax either, so it could be said that it must not be very useful since I can only use it for polishing.

Every buffer has it's intended purpose. I'd classify the cyclo as a special buffer that's not for everybody and not for every situation.

If you've never used a buffer before then get a PC before getting a Cyclo so you know what you will be missing. (just my 2 cents).

Originally Posted by chows4us

Heather and Octane ... new question. See I'm trying to justify the cost with the better half

What about this buffer? Cycle with dual heads?

http://autogeek.net/cyclo-polishers.html

More money but is it any better than the PC?

[chows4us]

Originally Posted by Detailers Paradise

Hey, go with whichever is easiest to "sell" to your other half!

Thank you. Well explained answer!

Easiest to sell is easy ... cheapest on the wallet

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

I still have to ask you, why would you spend more money if all you care about is removing wax??? How do you define "better"?

Octane, here is my latest line of thinking. See if it makes any sense please

Zaino is out. Just not a zaino zeolot. I guess I'm old school

I can see the point about using the buffer for a polish, in my case AIO but when I run out, it might be something else. I might do that twice a year ... spring and fall.

Wax, I got some sourveign left. Too expensive to throw away, enuff for maybe 5 waxs. I can put it on with the buffer, but maybe now I can take it off with it too and final buff touchup with a mf towel.

Waxing is still going to happen once every 4 - 6 weeks. I also got some Malms liquid wax that should go one very easily and wants to be put on very thin. I was thinking of getting some Glasur but after reading not only is it done by hand, but you got to use their pre-cleaning solution by hand. Im trying to make life easier, not harder

I also see Malms got a now high concentrate amount of carnauba wax like the Glasur but as a normal paste ... $125. Thinking of that to replace the Sourveign when it runs out.

I'm pretty convinced I want to make my life easier, not harder. If the buffer can reduce the time significantly per coat, thats easier.

Now what about the pads. I assume they can be cleaned and not need an endless supply of them as disposable items.

So it comes down to "selling" the idea of investing the money in the buffer to the better half whose opinion, at the moment, is

"Is this going to be another power tool that just sits there after the "newness" where's out?"

OK, I buy a circular saw, I only use it when I need it to cut lumber ... so its sits there a lot ... I use the chain saw when I need it, but it sits there a lot.

So I got to convince her its actually makes life easier and will be used. If I go back to hand buffing ... bad move on my part.

So what ya think. Will be this a thing that once you have it, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.

Yes, I do apply wax about every 6 weeks. Last time I waxed my car was in November and its still beading like the day I finished but thats not a fair comparison because its been sitting under cover since Feb 1 and any inclement weather in Dec/Jan.

[Detailers Paradise]

Originally Posted by chows4us

I was thinking of getting some Glasur but after reading not only is it done by hand, but you got to use their pre-cleaning solution by hand. Im trying to make life easier, not harder

Although Glasur is easier to work with when applied by hand, you can technically apply it with the PC. You waste some product though because you have to carve out a chunk and smear it on the pad.

Also, you do not need to use their pre-cleaning solution (I assume you mean HD-Cleanse?), nor do you apply it by hand. Any paint cleanser applied before a carnauba (or any wax for that matter) will improve your wax-paint bond. HD-Cleanse, while a good paint cleanser and a good product, is not specifically required for Glasur to work well. Any pre-wax/paint cleanser will do essentially the same thing in prepping the paint for your wax.

In fact, I would highly recommend using HD-Cleanse with the PC and a white pad. Just like with AIO, the PC will help muscle-up the cleansers in the HD-Cleanse. You can't go wrong using it with the PC.

Remember, Zymol likes to make everything sound exclusive and special. It's all just part of their marketing strategy. The rest of us think it's a little bizarre, but it does work for some customers so I guess they'll always do it that way! I have tons of experience with Zymol and can help you with the Zymol myths. Just ask and I'll give you the *real* scoop. Zymol makes good stuff but they are just a little unusual with their marketing tactics and so-called "rules" of application.

Originally Posted by chows4us

Now what about the pads. I assume they can be cleaned and not need an endless supply of them as disposable items.

Yes, pads can be cleaned and usually used numerous times before they die. Their lifespan depends on how hard and often you work them, and to some degree, how aggressive your product is.

*Typically speaking, a set of Lake Country pads will last a few years for the average hobbyist user, give or take.*

It is important to wash the pads immediately after use when using any synthetic waxes (Prima Epic, Klasse, Zaino, etc) or any oil-based polishes. You can wash pads used with water-based polishes (ie, Prima Cut, Swirl & Finish) anytime with no problems. In most cases, washing them with warm water and liquid dish soap does the trick. In the case of stubborn wax buildup, you can spritz some rubbing alcohol (or vinegar, as MiniMaybee discovered) on them and then wash with the warm water/soap.

Originally Posted by chows4us

So what ya think. Will be this a thing that once you have it, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.

Absolutely! Honestly, this isn't just coming from me... someone who sells the PC. We actually have customers who drive over to our store just to tell us how thrilled they are to have bought the PC and how they really don't know why they waited so long to get one.

And yes, I think every man in this country has power tools they used once and that's it. I honestly don't know anyone who has only used the PC at few times during the "honeymoon phase" and then shelved it. Not only is it a very helpful, effective tool (most power tools are), but the need actually arises to use it regularly. The need for sawing 2x4s only comes around every so often for most people. If you're already waxing and doing other car care stuff on a regular basis, you will always reach for the PC.


Having said all that though, since your goals are different than some others around here (mostly just wax application and wax removal) and you started out wondering if it would be worth the $$, I still highly recommend borrowing someone else's or going to their house to watch them use theirs. That way you'll really have a better handle on what it is and what it isn't.

-Heather

[chows4us]

Heather, Email sent from Chows4us

THANKS

[agranger]

Originally Posted by ImagoX

Oh, and Q-tips with a little Wizards Black Renew (available from Detailers Paradise) should get out any wax crusted inside the hex holes with just a bit of elbow grease.

Wax probably would have come out, but the polish didn't want to budge. I took the grills off and soaked 'em in my kitchen sink for 2 days with no luck. I even took my Oral-B electric toothbrush (with an old brush-head) to 'em after the soaking and couldn't get the dried polish off. I finally gave up and spent the $14.

[kenchan]

^^ she is the doctress.

[OctaneGuy]

I love to disagree, and since the original poster had asked for advice from the "pros", I like to use the PC to remove wax, then follow with a soft microfiber by hand. Although I have on many occasions just wiped off by hand--so not totally disagreeing. I also agree that a high quality terry is best for removing wax, since microfiber has a tendency to remove too much wax, however, the flip side, is that a poor quality terry could cause micromarring in your finish that a MF won't.

As Heather mentioned, the type of wax is important, as #21 Synthetic Sealant is super easy to wipe off--almost no friction at all.

The problem that I find for most people is they don't let the wax dry long enough, or they use too much. This results in people wanting to use a tool or find "easier" ways to remove the wax--when in reality, it's just poor techique that's fighting them.

Use the "swipe test" as demonstrated on my DVD, and you will always be certain that the wax is dry and ready to be buffed off.

As for Skitelluride's comment-- although using a microfiber bonnet is safest, if carefully done, you can use a PC with a stiff pad--like the W7006 cutting pad--and lay down a soft microfiber towel, and press the pad against that. No bonnet needed. As that area becomes saturated, separate the pad from the towel--it will stick---and you can use a different area of the towel.

The only downside to this is that the towel will spin, so you gotta be careful when doing side panels--when gravity is at play.

So back to the original question---which tool is best to remove wax? Given that you are using proper technique, and a good wax, I would still recommend the Porter Cable polisher.

Sometimes there are spots of wax that are hard to remove by hand---maybe it was applied too heavily, maybe wasn't fully dry, but to remove by hand would require rubbing, and that could cause scratches. Using the PC, and even bearing down on it, won't cause scratches no matter what you do--it's definitely safer to use in cases like that.

Agranger,

try a stiff nylon wheel brush--the bristles are tougher but won't scratch the plastic. Meguiar's #40 or #39 will remove that wax and #40 will simultaneously dress it.

I had to do this last night on my Aerogrill.

Originally Posted by agranger

Wax probably would have come out, but the polish didn't want to budge. I took the grills off and soaked 'em in my kitchen sink for 2 days with no luck. I even took my Oral-B electric toothbrush (with an old brush-head) to 'em after the soaking and couldn't get the dried polish off. I finally gave up and spent the $14.

Richard

[ImagoX]

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

The problem that I find for most people is they don't let the wax dry long enough, or they use too much. This results in people wanting to use a tool or find "easier" ways to remove the wax--when in reality, it's just poor techique that's fighting them.

Use the "swipe test" as demonstrated on my DVD, and you will always be certain that the wax is dry and ready to be buffed off.

This is indeed "wisdom from the pros" worth listening to. Once I started heeding this advice, waxing became 100X easier. Using the PC or another RO machine will help lay down a thin, even coat of wax and waiting long enough to complete the "swipe test" Richard mentions will assure that the wax is properly cured. Removal of properly dry wax is really quite easy.

[kenchan]

Originally Posted by ImagoX

waxing became 100X easier.

damn, were you using a putty knife to apply your wax before? jk

[Detailers Paradise]

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

The problem that I find for most people is they don't let the wax dry long enough, or they use too much. This results in people wanting to use a tool or find "easier" ways to remove the wax--when in reality, it's just poor techique that's fighting them.

Ditto!! Although, as Chows4Us pointed out, there are a few waxes which can be buffed off/removed immediately or almost immediately (AIO, P21S). Exception though, not the rule, from my experience.

No matter what the product, IMO, most people having trouble are indeed using way too much wax.

-Heather