Swirl marks. Water issue?

SB · #1 01-29-2006, 07:22 PM

On my 03 MCS I never had swirl marks or fine scratches until around last spring they started showing up. I blew it off as maybe I never noticed them. This past October I purchased an 06 MCS. I now have swirl marks and fine scratches on this 06 more than I had in the first two years of my 03.

So, I come to the conclusion that it has to do with something in this area. I live in a new area and have since a few months before the swirls started showing on the 03. The area is full of construction of new homes and I was thinking possibly that it could be the dirt constantly in the air. Before and after I wash the MINI, I rinse it completely. I then pull it into the garage to dry it off. Trying to keep as much airborne stuff off the car while I dry it.

A friend today said it may have something to do with the water. Could this be possible? It's driving me crazy seeing all these swirls on a car that at most has only been washed a dozen times. :impatient I know I can get the swirls out as I did once before on my 03 but I know they'll be right back.

sly:

agranger · #2 01-29-2006, 08:07 PM

Any changes in the rest of your process? A new wash mit? new microfibers? anything?

magic mini · #3 01-29-2006, 08:14 PM

There may something in the air around where you live that is getting on your car and then you wash it with the stuff on the Mini which makes the marks. Hey did you try the Clay bar on the car. I know that I use the Clay bar on mine and it gets the unseen dirt off. But you know that because you are the one that showed me the clay bar.

But I have those swirl marks too. It could be the water in Alabama.

**Motor On** · #4 01-29-2006, 08:18 PM

This isn't NASCAR you're not supposede to be rubbing doors!!

Could be the water, do you know if it is filtered at all (might want to consider the Mr. Clean system just to filter the water)? But most likely something else in the process. How dirty is the air? could it be that dirt is getting on the surface after your rise?

SB · #5 01-29-2006, 08:23 PM

Same stuff used as always, agranger. I've even replaced the chamois for a microfiber thinking the chamois was the problem. Of course some of the same stuff used has been replaced when it gets worn.

That's possible, motor on. That's the reason I immediately pull it into the garage just after the rinse. I'm not sure if the water is filtered at all. I'll give the Mr. Clean system a try for the filtering.

BradB · #6 01-30-2006, 01:45 PM

I doubt it's the water. It's unusual (dangerous) for tap water to have particles in it that would scratch your car. Imagine what it's doing to your guts!

It's more likely your washing/drying process. You should be using a auto shampoo that compliments your wax of choice. The shampoo acts as a lubricant between the mitt and paint and helps avoid scratching. This mitt action is the #1 cause of swirls. You should barely use any pressure with the mitt. Pull it in one direction. Curl the mitt up and away as dirt accumulates on the leading edge. This way you are not "pushing" dirt as you stroke.

Use a proper mitt. Make sure it is real lambs wool or 100% cotton. Rinse it like a madman when using it. I rinse every pass. And I keep the water flowing in front of it as I pull off the dirt. This keeps dirt particles flowing away.

Wash your mitts frequently as well. I toss mine in the washing machine every 3-4 uses.

If you use a synthetic chamois as a pre-dry tool then remember to just lay it on and pull it off. Don't drag it. Follow up with a quality waffleweave MF drying towel. Double the towel over and pull it from front to back. Never in circles. Always one direction. Drying is the #2 problem.

MR ECON · #7 01-30-2006, 02:03 PM

As with crop circles, the source of the swirls may forever remain a mystery. However, maybe time lapse photography could help determine whether there are swirl gremlins that come out at night and get their dirty, swirly mitts on your car.

But seriously, I take it nobody has taken your car to have it detailed, where someone might have treated the painted surfaces without the respect they deserve?

**OctaneGuy** · #8 01-31-2006, 06:24 PM

It goes without saying that no matter what tools you use for cleaning, drying, polishing, maintaining your finish, you always need to inspect them before they hit the paint. Say you grab a mitt from your bucket and start soaping your paint. Then you toss it back in the soap bucket, or maybe if you're using the 2 bucket method---you rinsed it out first, then put in the soap bucket, make very sure that there are no leaves, twigs, or any particles still in the mitt when it goes back to your paint finish.

Swirls can appear by a number of causes. One possible cause is time--lets say your dealer waxed your car using a wax that contained fillers. It only takes a few washes before those fillers start to disipate and suddenly you see swirls!

They were always there, just hidden from view. The only way to remove swirls is to use a paint cleaner with abrasives in it. You can do this by hand or by machine, but you definitely don't want anything like a rubbing compound with sharp coarse abrasives. You want something with super fine diminishing abrasives--which you can't even feel between your fingers.

Applied correctly, those swirls will be gone, and then you can apply your favorite wax to protect it.

This isn't a MINI--1999 Toyota Tacoma, but you can see how just 2 passes with M80 using a PC (Dual Action Orbital) produced this result.

This also isn't a MINI--2003 Porsche Carrera 4, but also similar process

Similar results on the back of this 2003 Mercedes c230 Kompressor

The entire side of this car was buffed by a body shop after they repainted it. I demonstrated I could fix it in only about 10 minutes of time by buffing out one area.

Point being that swirls exist from a number of different causes---you can prevent them by analyzing all the ways your paint is touched and correcting that, but going further, you need to know how to remove them once they are instilled and that doesn't require brain surgery.

SB · #9 01-31-2006, 06:34 PM

Thanks, all.

I'll make sure to check out my products this weekend and see if one could be a problem.

002 · #10 02-23-2006, 11:27 PM

A quality non abrassive Polish fallowed by wax will get you 90% of the way of buffing (if you have moderate swirls) without the risk, especially with metallic paint. Go to an autmotive paint store and they should have no problem getting you what you need. Some consumer products like meguires high tech wax is already very oily and may get you results you are happy with in less time and money.

If your are really into it, use a clay bar first and you'll end up asking strangers to feel your car. Go ahead touch it, you know you want too.

**OctaneGuy** · #11 02-23-2006, 11:35 PM

How will a non abrasive polish remove swirls??? There are only two ways you can remove swirls.

1.) Chemical process
2.) Abrasives--in Meguiars, they use Diminishing Abrasives which means microscopic abrasives that break down as they are worked into the paint providing finer and finer polishing the more it's worked in.

(I'm side stepping Rubbing Compounds which contain very sharp, coarse abrasives which I would never recommend on a MINI finish)

As for risk, that I don't understand. Risk from what? Damaging the paint? You reduce risk with good technique. Use a PC (Dual Action Orbital Polisher) and you've removed nearly all the risk unless you drop it on your car!

Richard

Quote:

Originally Posted by 002

A quality non abrassive Polish fallowed by wax will get you 90% of the way of buffing (if you have moderate swirls) without the risk, especially with metallic paint. Go to an autmotive paint store and they should have no problem getting you what you need. Some consumer products like meguires high tech wax is already very oily and may get you results you are happy with in less time and money.

If your are really into it, use a clay bar first and you'll end up asking strangers to feel your car. Go ahead touch it, you know you want too.

002 · #12 02-23-2006, 11:56 PM

It fills them in. That is what you would have to do if you cut with an abrassive anyway. I worked as a detailer at mini/bmw for three years and that has been my experiance. Clay, polish, wax is a great place to start and will make most people very happy.

Also, a lot of shops will cut worse swirls than you had when youwent in and just cover it up with polish anyway. That is why you see cars driving around with paint that looks like someone used a orbital with steel wool on it. I don't think they left the shop looking like that.

I have all the industrial products in my garage from my detailing and painting days, but I still only clay,polish, wax my car unless there is a stain or scratch.

002 · #13 02-24-2006, 12:06 AM

abrassives shouldn't be used in an orbital. An orbital will not remove swirls. I've seen a meguire's rep try it on a car during a "training class", it looked ok, but as soon as we stripped the polish it displayed the same swirl patterns as a poorly done buff job.

As for diminshing abrassives, they really need a rotory buffer to create enough heat and pressure to brake down anyway.

BradB · #14 02-24-2006, 07:55 AM

Using a non-abrasive wax with fillers can often help reduce the swirls visually....but it is quite temporary.

With the proper products, (buffing pad choice and appropriate level of abrasive) and approved techniques/skill (most people buff too fast and don't manipulate/work the abrasive properly) you can absolutely remove swirls with the Orbital buffer. Removing them will make your life much easier in the long run and it certainly looks better.

Sure, there are some defects that are too deep but that's rarely the case with simple swirls. If someone is not getting good results then they are likely falling short in one of the areas mentioned above. I see this all the time.

A large part of my seminars include the proper use of the Orbital. While it seems like a simple machine to use, attention to the detail is required for best results.

**OctaneGuy** · #15 02-24-2006, 08:23 AM

I don't mean any disrespect to you, but this is why the local MINI/BMW dealers hire me to teach their detailers the proper techniques to polishing out a customers car.

Filling in a swirl IMO is the worst thing a detailer can do. Its fine if that's the end user trying to make his car look better without much effort, but if you're paid to make a car look it's best, I feel the work you do shouldn't be a temporary cover up.

As for cutting swirls (aka holograms or buffer swirls), that's very true. I'm most often hired to fix other detailers mistakes. The problem is these people take their nice black cars to a detailer who attacks their finish with a wool pad on a rotary buffer, uses a filler, and sends the client off. It looks great for a little while until it gets washed a few times.

As for the Meguiar's rep, it really depends on what he used. Not all reps are equal. If he demonstrated M66 Quick Detailer which is a one step polish/wax often used in production settings, then you're right, that product fills in swirls. I've tested it myself when applied with a rotary and that's why I don't use it, because it's a temporary effect.

Using M80 or M83 is entirely feasible with a PC. I've got hundreds of detailed MINIs to prove that. The Meguiar's way teaches you to use the least agressive process to get the job done right. By evaluating the finish first, you determine whether you need to hit it with a rotary or with a PC, which pads and which chemicals to use.

As a BMW detailer, I understand where you are coming from. Definitely from a production aspect, you've been taught about how to get the job done quickly and efficiently.

Richard

Quote:

Originally Posted by 002

It fills them in. That is what you would have to do if you cut with an abrassive anyway. I worked as a detailer at mini/bmw for three years and that has been my experiance. Clay, polish, wax is a great place to start and will make most people very happy.

Also, a lot of shops will cut worse swirls than you had when youwent in and just cover it up with polish anyway. That is why you see cars driving around with paint that looks like someone used a orbital with steel wool on it. I don't think they left the shop looking like that.

I have all the industrial products in my garage from my detailing and painting days, but I still only clay,polish, wax my car unless there is a stain or scratch.

**OctaneGuy** · #16 02-24-2006, 08:43 AM

It's very true. But it's all in the technique. I think for people who feel speed is the priority to get as many cars done as possible, the PC is just too slow.

The PC is a finishing tool--it can be used to remove light swirls and clear coat scratches when used properly. It's also great for removing buffer swirls if they aren't too deep.

With that said, I always follow my rotary work with a PC to ensure a completely swirl free finish.

For instance, sorry not all of these are MINIs but they are cool nonetheless,

Here's a Classic Mini, that I buffed out the bonnet after about 15 minutes, using only a PC. I taped it off so you can see the untouched side to "our" right, and the buffed side on the left. The color was a dark blue, almost black color. After it got fully buffed out, in the light it looked blue again, and all the scratches and swirls were removed.

1971 Classic Mini

After

this car is coming up in the near future for me.

The car looks great from a distance

But upclose using my swirl finder light, it's got lots of fine scratches.

Since this is a standard 2 stage paint job (clear coat), I'm going to hit it with a PC and M80.

Here's a custom truck I worked on recently with deep swirls and holograms

The only way to fix it was by using a rotary buffer with a stiff cutting pad

After

Finally, this is what a rotary buffer can do in the proper hands

After

Oxidation removed with a rotary and finished with a PC

It's all in the technique.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradB

Using a non-abrasive wax with fillers can often help reduce the swirls visually....but it is quite temporary.

With the proper products, (buffing pad choice and appropriate level of abrasive) and approved techniques/skill (most people buff too fast and don't manipulate/work the abrasive properly) you can absolutely remove swirls with the Orbital buffer. Removing them will make your life much easier in the long run and it certainly looks better.

Sure, there are some defects that are too deep but that's rarely the case with simple swirls. If someone is not getting good results then they are likely falling short in one of the areas mentioned above. I see this all the time.

A large part of my seminars include the proper use of the Orbital. While it seems like a simple machine to use, attention to the detail is required for best results.

agranger · #17 02-24-2006, 09:26 PM

That Mustang is beautiful work... I've never tried to save one that is that far gone before.

**OctaneGuy** · #18 02-24-2006, 09:52 PM

Hey Agranger,
Thanks. You gotta try a single stage finish. They are tons of fun because of the dramatic transformation. On my site, showcargarage.com under my writeups, I've got a 1968 Camaro, that was my first SS finish and also a dramatic makeover. Tonight, the owner of that Mustang brought over his friends 1982 Jeep. Its a black SS finish and same condition as the Mustang. I restored one part, and he took it back to the owner. I expect a call tonight to even out his car ASAP. LOL.

Richard

002 · #19 02-25-2006, 05:11 PM

Octaneguy,
No disrespect felt, I know it's hard to get a point across online without sounding confrontational. I think we share a similar philosophy and ethics in terms of detailing, but again it's hard be clear on the details (no pun intended

) in forums. My style is to cut the clear as little as possable to get the desired effect (thinning out the clear coat will reduce the uv protection). Again, I suggested clay, polish and wax because it's less expensive, easier for DIY'ers, less risk of mistakes and more than satisfies most people.

All this talk reminds me that still have to do my spring time detail and bird stain removal, but having been a detailer I went with white top/ dark silver

.

agranger · #20 02-25-2006, 09:56 PM

The only work I've done on a single-stage was the paint on the B-pillar of my '97 Nissan Altima (that I traded in for the MINI). I think I hit that with about 5-10 seconds of the PCDA, orange foam flat pad, medium-cut compound and I could see primer showing throughl! I wound up repainting both sides!