Removing Swirl Marks from Black

[revo789]

i agreed to fully detail my neighbor's black A6 that looks atrocious. it has black paint with TONS of swirl marks and stains. What products should i be using and do i really need to get an orbital buffer If i got one, i would use it on my MCS but i'm not sure if i want to shell out the cash.

[OctaneGuy]

Considering that Audi's paint is on the harder side, you're going to need at minimum a Porter Cable Random Orbital Polisher.

You could just slap on a glaze or product with fillers and improve the darkness and richness of the paint, but you won't get rid of most of the swirls.

If I were to do this by hand using Prima products, I would

Wash the paint thoroughly with Dawn dish soap to remove any existing waxes. Might have to do this several times.

Thoroughly clay the paint to remove bonded contaminants

Apply two coats of Prima Amigo

Apply two coats of Prima Banana Gloss

Top the paint with Hydro full strength the next day

You will see a reduction in swirls and defects. The black will be much blacker and deeper. The tone will be more even, but it won't look anything like what paint polished with a machine could look like.

I suggest these hand applied products because of their filling ability and ease of use when working by hand. Really for an Audi, you want a machine. Good luck and post your results of Before and After pix!

Richard

Originally Posted by revo789

i agreed to fully detail my neighbor's black A6 that looks atrocious. it has black paint with TONS of swirl marks and stains. What products should i be using and do i really need to get an orbital buffer If i got one, i would use it on my MCS but i'm not sure if i want to shell out the cash.

[K5Cruiser]

I'm an amateur at this stuff, but with what I've learned from Richard and the results I have already realized, I'm going to have to encourage you to buy a PC. Once you have that, get some Swirl and say good bye to the swirl marks!

[OctaneGuy]

You couldn't turn this Audi without a machine polisher from THIS

To This


Close up of paint before polishing


K5Cruiser, did you see THIS thread??

Originally Posted by K5Cruiser

I'm an amateur at this stuff, but with what I've learned from Richard and the results I have already realized, I'm going to have to encourage you to buy a PC. Once you have that, get some Swirl and say good bye to the swirl marks!

[K5Cruiser]

Yeah, I saw it. I finished out the hood and it came out beautiful! Unfortunately about two days later a cat tried to jump on the hood and slid back down, leaving claw marks in the paint and in the grill I guess the Banana Gloss hood was too slippery for the cat to even get a grip on the hood. I hate cats! Anyway, I'm going to have to find some more time to take care of that area of the hood, and of course finish the rest of the car. I've also been practicing on other family cars as well as some of my hobby cars. It's definitely fun and a joy to see the end results.

[Hmmm]

Octaneguy, great pics, but park it in the same spot next time... the red letters sorta make the second pic pop... not there in the first one.

With regards to if you need a buffer or tool or whatever.... like Octane said, yes, you need some sort of tool to really work in your cleaners, swirlers, etc. That said, I an 99% sure I could take some crap wax off the shelf at the local Walmart and use my Porter Cable and make it look amazing. I could also take my Klasse and S100 stuff and go by hand and make it look amazing... but just think if you use your favorite waxes WITH a Porter cable, makita, or whatever orbital you use! The difference is night and day when it comes to fixing swirls.

Think of it this way, it's like having a sub. Sure, you sound system might have sounded OK without one, but damn... it sounds great with a sub to accentuate those lows!

Seperately, with regards to what cleaners and waxes you should use, look around and read reviews. Don't be sucked into the Detailing section's sponsor, there's a lot more products out there that have proven track records and Concourse wins to back up their claims!

[OctaneGuy]

Park it in the same spot huh? Yeah, it's not always possible when you receive a car, and work on it for 9+ hours. The sun tends to move you know? But no fear, I've included some other pictures just for you.















By the way, it boggles my mind that you can talk about products with "proven track records" and "Concourse wins", yet your terminology is so confusing???!?

What other power tools do you have besides a buffer? You've got the random orbital polisher and the direct drive rotary buffer. And then you got some hybrids.

I sure hope there aren't any products that induce swirls in my paint..i.e. "swirlers".

Also, I highly doubt you could use ANY buffer with some "crap wax" and make it look amazing. Why? Well, if you think that simply applying wax to a car makes it look amazing, then you really don't understand what polishing is about. What makes your paint amazing is the process of cleansing the paint using clay, then using a tool that can do more work than your hands alone. You don't need a machine buffer to wax a car..but you imply that using a buffer with a wax can make your paint look amazing. That is incorrect.

Once again, you cannot fix swirls with a wax and a machine polisher. Saying so is only promoting false hope to those trying to learn how to detail.

But since we're on the subject of what you can do with a polisher, let's look at some other examples.

A BMW 330CI








Sorry I couldn't park this in the same location. They were taken a week apart.








Left side was polished and waxed, and left out on the street overnight. This was taken the next day.






Does using a product with "proven track records" and "concourse wins" enable you to get results like this? No. For the Camaro and Mustang, I used Meguiar's Professional polishes which was before I started using Prima. They are good products, but I found Prima easier and more forgiving, so now that's what I use.

Richard

Originally Posted by Hmmm

Octaneguy, great pics, but park it in the same spot next time... the red letters sorta make the second pic pop... not there in the first one.

With regards to if you need a buffer or tool or whatever.... like Octane said, yes, you need some sort of tool to really work in your cleaners, swirlers, etc. That said, I an 99% sure I could take some crap wax off the shelf at the local Walmart and use my Porter Cable and make it look amazing. I could also take my Klasse and S100 stuff and go by hand and make it look amazing... but just think if you use your favorite waxes WITH a Porter cable, makita, or whatever orbital you use! The difference is night and day when it comes to fixing swirls.

Think of it this way, it's like having a sub. Sure, you sound system might have sounded OK without one, but damn... it sounds great with a sub to accentuate those lows!

Seperately, with regards to what cleaners and waxes you should use, look around and read reviews. Don't be sucked into the Detailing section's sponsor, there's a lot more products out there that have proven track records and Concourse wins to back up their claims!

[K5Cruiser]

Originally Posted by OctaneGuy

I would have considered this Camaro a lost cause. The trunk looks like it's got primer showing through, but that must be something else on top of the paint. Phenomenal results!

[mini44]

Originally Posted by revo789

i agreed to fully detail my neighbor's black A6 that looks atrocious. it has black paint with TONS of swirl marks and stains. What products should i be using and do i really need to get an orbital buffer If i got one, i would use it on my MCS but i'm not sure if i want to shell out the cash.

It sounds like you've got a passion for cars, you've got a MINI, Bmw, LandRover and a Jag and you're going to detail the neighbour's car. Yes an orbital is in order. I love my PC. You'll use less product than by hand, get better results and its quicker. The sponsors and members on here will walk you through it so check out their products. I'd buy a combo pack cause you know you want it.. Good luck with the black Audi, I think I'd learn on a lighter colour, though.

[Hmmm]

Hah, Richard, don't get pissy because I asked about Prima's track record. It wasn't my fault that the only response was a fabricated best of class... when it was actually 2nd place.

Sorta like if I told you that I was a coach for the Superbowl winning Arizona Cardinals, and I could teach you to run the wildcat offense...

My point, which has been the same all along, is that you and most professional detailers here push the prima line. On your own forums you boast having an unbiased venue where everyone can talk about detailing... when I bring it up here you flame away. When I bring up the fact that most are biased towards Prima here, I get flamed.

Oh, and since you are having problems with taking the before and after pics in the same spot... I would have thought the red curb would ensure you didn't have that problem.

Sorry I am not using your correct lingo all the time. But your response will ensure that I will continue to purchase the exact products you sell elsewhere, at lower prices, with a better attitude coming from their people. It boggles my mind that your attitude matches your prices.

"but it won't look anything like what paint polished with a machine could look like."

followed by...

"but you imply that using a buffer with a wax can make your paint look amazing. That is incorrect."

*boggle*

[kurisu]

Originally Posted by Hmmm

"but it won't look anything like what paint polished with a machine could look like."

followed by...

"but you imply that using a buffer with a wax can make your paint look amazing. That is incorrect."

*boggle*

Well, what Richard is trying to say is that you are confusing a polish and a wax. A polish is an abrasive that will remove a minuscule amount of paint to reveal a fresh layer of paint that is not oxidized and which is level with itself, i.e. not swirled.
A wax is a layer of protection you put ON TOP of the paint, which doesn't do anything to the paint, just covers some of its defects.

At the most basic level, it doesn't matter what brand of products you use. If you use the correct type of product (i.e. first a polish to remove defects, then a wax to protect and add some gloss/depth to a perfectly polished paint) in the right order then you get real results.
If you just apply the wax on top of paint which is full of defect, you are just hiding the defects.

Richard is not here to flame you, he is simply trying to make you understand that you are confusing terms and thus not understanding what you're talking about.

It's not about the brand, it's about doing things in order and understanding the steps.

[OctaneGuy]

Thanks Kurisu for that excellent explanation.

Btw, Hmmm, if you haven't gotten it by now, a snarky post is going to get a snarky reply. On the other hand, as most of the posters know here in Detailing101, show respect to others, and you can expect that in return.

I suggest you change your attitude here if you want to get the most helpful replies. Thinking that we are some big conspiracy of Prima users and you having to somehow "reveal the truth" to us isn't going to win you friends.

Oh and btw, you must have missed the post. That Concourse win wasn't a second place. Go back over the posts. There was a typo that lead YOU to believe they got second place. There were TWO cars of the same year and model that took wins and the one that had Prima did take 1st as was originally stated.

Richard

Originally Posted by kurisu

Well, what Richard is trying to say is that you are confusing a polish and a wax. A polish is an abrasive that will remove a minuscule amount of paint to reveal a fresh layer of paint that is not oxidized and which is level with itself, i.e. not swirled.
A wax is a layer of protection you put ON TOP of the paint, which doesn't do anything to the paint, just covers some of its defects.

At the most basic level, it doesn't matter what brand of products you use. If you use the correct type of product (i.e. first a polish to remove defects, then a wax to protect and add some gloss/depth to a perfectly polished paint) in the right order then you get real results.
If you just apply the wax on top of paint which is full of defect, you are just hiding the defects.

Richard is not here to flame you, he is simply trying to make you understand that you are confusing terms and thus not understanding what you're talking about.

It's not about the brand, it's about doing things in order and understanding the steps.

[bee1000n]

I'd say whether one product or another was used on a concours-winning car is irrelevant anyway. It's the person using the products that makes the difference.

I'm sure a professional detailer could restore a finish using a multitude of products--just like a beginner could use any number of highly recommended products and end up with a finish that isn't any better than when he (well, I) started!

This forum is definitely Prima-centric, and differing opinions would be appreciated, but it's not like people are suggesting to use some junk from Wal-Mart. Prima products are easy-to-use and yield very good results.

[OctaneGuy]

If you take a look back to the early days of NAM, what people talked about mostly in Detailing101 was Zaino. It was definitely Zaino centric then, and really we all knew much less about caring for our paint than we do now. I was in the minority of Meguiar's users though I did start out as a Zaino user too. Because Autopia Car Care was a sponsor, a lot of members used their products too and several prominent NAM members never failed to link to their site in every post. You can find that in the stickies here.

Like every sponsored website, people are going to be talking about what is being promoted, but nobody is forcing people to use our products. As anyone who has even been to the local autoparts store knows, there are a LOT of detailing products on the market, and knowing which ones to use is daunting. With so many products using confusing names..calling a polish a Polish that isn't a polish but a wax, or calling claybar a "liquid claybar" when it's really a hybrid polish, choosing the products that get the job done in the most efficient, easiest, and with the best results is difficult.

So what's the problem with us helping you wade through all that "noise" and introducing to the people here, a brand of products that works great, but they probably never heard of? There isn't. (I'm not talking directly to you bee1000n...just quoting you since you were the last to mention this)

Richard

Originally Posted by bee1000n

This forum is definitely Prima-centric, and differing opinions would be appreciated, but it's not like people are suggesting to use some junk from Wal-Mart. Prima products are easy-to-use and yield very good results.

[BlimeyCabrio]

Correct - and it doesn't help that you'll find lots of "mis-labeled" products on the shelves of auto parts stores - lots of consumer products out there touted as "polishes" that really aren't - like this one:


Not a polish - nor a wax - more of a sealant. Does nothing to actually correct problems with paint - just covers them.