Bad idea or just crazy enough to work?

[Some Guy]

Hey all,

So in my continuing quest to be cheap I have decided to forgo buying a PC and instead I am looking for alternative way to remove the swirls on my MINI. I have noticed that one of the unifying factors on most consumer level buffers available is that they are dual action, both rotating and orbiting. While I was at work today I had a bit of an Ah-Ha moment; I have a sander that does exactly the same thing.

At this point you might think "he want to sand his car", hardly the case. This is a DeWalt random orbital sander that uses 5in pads that attach via a hook and loop style backing plate. It's basically an older version of this, and even then I think mine operates in a lower RPM range.

http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/to...roductID=10167

My understanding is that the PC buffer is actually a re-purposed sander, so what is the potential harm in using a slightly different model?

[OctaneGuy]

You're not going to get any rotation--just orbiting. Rotation is an important part of the polishing process. I see it's variable speed, but does it have enough torque? You can try it--it's your car and your paint. Tell us if it works, and please take lots of pix. =)

My guess is that it won't be effective. Btw, while you likely won't hurt your paint, the cost of a new paint job will be $500+. Considering how important paint is and how costly it is to replace---it doesn't seem logical to me that that would be the place to skimp.

Just my 2 cents.

Richard

[Some Guy]

Lemme back up a second. The one I would use, is a double action unit, just like the PC. It both rotates and orbits. If it were simply orbiting I would have ruled it out a while ago. and probably would have settled for doing it by hand. Torque is an interesting question, but I remember it as having enough power for any sanding I have had to do.

Lastly, I have a slightly older Jeep I can test this out on, so I am not worried about damaging the MINI.

Edit: Cheap is not quite the word to use to describe what is going on here. Rather without seeing the results in person I am very hesitant to invest the money in a "proper" polishing setup, especially when I might only use it once a year.

[lotsie]

My first thought is that it's speeds are way to fast, even if you have an older one I don't think it would go as slow as a PC. The Porter cable is not a re-purposed sander, but rather a re-purposed angle grinder. Grinders operate at lower speeds, and have higher torque. Sanders overcome the need for high torque by operating at much higher speeds. If a sander were to operate at the lower speeds of a grinder, you would end up with wood that was full of swirls. If you put to much weight on a sander and slow it down, your wood surface gets scoured by the sandpaper.

Another issue you may run into is that unless the sander has NEVER been used on wood, it will tend to have wood dust imbedded in the backing plate, and other parts that could get between the pads and your paint, not to mention the effects any wood resin/pitch that may also flake off. This would be very bad.

A lot of times I live by the old Red Green adage "Any tool is the right tool" yes a crescent wrench can double as a hammer, or a slotted screw driver can be used as a chisel, but in this case there is no overlap in purpose IMO.

Mark

[Detailers Paradise]

Originally Posted by lotsie

My first thought is that it's speeds are way to fast...

...at lower speeds, and have higher torque...

Another issue you may run into is that unless the sander has NEVER been used on wood, it will tend to have wood dust imbedded in the backing plate, and other parts that could get between the pads and your paint, not to mention the effects any wood resin/pitch that may also flake off. This would be very bad.

While you (Some Guy) have pointed out some of the discrepancies of lotsie's argument regarding sanders vs grinders, my concern is still similar to lotsie's base concern. In other words, your model has a 3.0 amp motor which is smaller than the PC (7336SP = 4.0 amp) or Dewalt's equivalent (model #443 if you want to compare). Likewise, the speed ranges are quite different. Thus, I would guess that the torque will be your main issue.
In other words, I would be afraid that your speeds will be too fast and your torque too low. (be sure to run it on the lowest speed on that model!) Also, often the brand can help indicate torque level... the better brands (Porter Cable and Dewalt) tend to have much higher torque than their cheaper imitations.

That said, given the dual-action movement is there, I don't think you run any risk of damage just to give it a try... only a potential for ineffectiveness. EXCEPT...

...for lotsie's other point about it being a sander before a polisher. This concerns me greatly. I see you already gave it a try and perhaps (hopefully!) you already took some precautions.

I would strongly suggest a very thorough cleaning of the sander before ever using it as a polisher. This means taking it apart as best as you can, using high pressure air to blast out every nook and cranny and THEN still understand that there may be a risk still. Any of the sanding debris that may be left behind will undoubtedly scratch your paint. I've seen it before in case you don't support my logic based explanation.

In summary, as long as the sander has been completely and throughly cleaned prior to polishing, it certainly is worth a try to see if there is enough torque and if the action "covers" the right amount of space to movement. Minus the wood dust potential issue, the machine itself will not do damage. Go ahead and see if it will do any correction!

-Heather

[kenchan]

if you're only going to do it once a year, just do it by hand.

[Some Guy]

Yeah, I will probably just end up doing it by hand. For another thread maybe...


I would like to point out that the PC polisher is not a repurposed angle grinder. Here is a 30$ angle grinder I found on northern tool.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...5681_200355681

12k RPM. The entire Idea behind an angle grinder is to remove metal by, well grinding it off, the only way to do that without wrenching your arms off is with high speed. If you feed to much metal into one of those two quickly it will stall out.

Further more, the delta prter cable website under variable speed sanders...
http://www.deltaportercable.com/Prod...roductID=11052

Is a sander with a model number Identical to that of one of their polishers...

http://www.deltaportercable.com/Prod...roductID=11081

Furthermore a simple glance at the construction of the two and it becomes obvious that they are the same thing. Ryobi does the same thing with one of there sanders, excepts it is shaped like the dewalt. The measure of 7k to 12k orbits per minute is not a measure of rotations on the backing pad but how many times a minute it vibrates. The pad rotation is far slower than that.

Ok, thats enough of me being a d***.

[greengobln]

here , here! Bully!

or you could buy one used on ebay and then resell it on ebay if you don't like it

[lotsie]

Sorry, your right about the speed of a grinder I guess what I was trying to say is that the PC is shaped like an angle grinder, as apposed to the shape of most RO sanders.

What is interesting is that the PC that is called a RO sander is 4 amps, and the RO Polisher is 3.7 amps.

Mark

[greengobln]

my vote is bad idea but i'm interested to see your results. it could open up detailing to a lot of people.

[Some Guy]

Ok, so out of curiosity I decided to dig the bloody thing out and see just how much torque it has. Not a ton... Now keep in mind I have nothing really to compare this to but I was able to stop it by pressing the sanding disk that was on it up against my hand and not have to worry about getting hurt by it. I have no idea what the torque is like on a PC, but I am willing to bet it is more... You would probably need to use a fairly low friction pad.

Also something worth noting, the right angle type sanders have a much large orbit, probably helps contribute to the effectiveness.

Another small caveat is that the distance between the backing plate and the dust chute is probably about 3/4 of an in, meaning there is a good chance that if the pad has a recessed back that it wood catch on said chute.

[lotsie]

Most pads that I have seen do not have a recessed area to receive the backing plate. But that chute could cause other issues, like bang against surfaces.

Probably best to just do it by hand. But if you spread the cost of a PC over the years of use, it does not seem so bad.

Mark

[Modshack]

I use a Bosch Random orbit "Sander" as well as an air powered one. Both work great for light polishing with 3M Finessit 2 or equivalent..

[greengobln]

alright enough talking start working on your older car and show the photos. the hypothetical situations are killing me. just do it on the old jeep and show us some photos. p.s. i just saw a PC on craigslist for $45. are you sure you don't want to look into it some more. some waxes cost more than that.

[Some Guy]

My searching consisted of looking on Ebay, I a will definitely look around a bit harder now. I am putting together an order from DP and I am still in the process of figuring out what I am going to get, as soon as I do that I will update this thread with results.

Edit: If I had to order one pad just to some light work and some small area's the DP white pad would probably be the ticket right? No recessing or anything like that on it right?

[Detailers Paradise]

Originally Posted by Some Guy

If I had to order one pad just to some light work and some small area's the DP white pad would probably be the ticket right? No recessing or anything like that on it right?

As long as it is light work, then the white pad would be most appropriate. Remember that paint softness/hardness varies between manufacturers. In other words, the white pad and Swirl is often a great choice for light work on a MINI. However, if you used that combo on hard paint (like Ford paint, for example) then it probably wouldn't be enough for even light work. Just something to keep in mind.

No, there is no recessing on the standard 6.5" flat white pad. It shouldn't get in the way.

Also, keep in mind to work each small (approx 2'x2') section for a long enough amount of time as you test your machine. As a rule, start with 2 minutes per section.

Last, remember to add very little to zero weight to the machine as you work. Let the machine do the work. It's the only way dual-action machine can be effective with the density of Lake Country pads.

Hope that helps! Good luck and let us know how you make out!

-Heather

[ScottinBend]

Or if you have a compressor handy and don't mind the noise you can go for something like this

[Some Guy]

http://www.dino-power.com/productsd.php?pid=88

That one kinda surprised me, usually those things have ridiculous air consumption rates. I have a fairly beefy air compressor so thats an option in the future as well.

I will probably pick up an orange pad as well, I plan to do most of the work by hand so that probably makes it a necessity (the orange pad). If anything my sander is probably a slightly lower amperage than even the one I linked (it is older). You are right to point out that it is important that I clean the thing off very well before I use it, that was one of the first potential issues that came to mind when this scheme popped into my head.

[ScottinBend]

I have 2 RO air driven ones. One for my car and the other for everything else. I am very pleased with the results. Plus with the "speed control" on it I can easily manipulate the speed.

[PHX ATC]

You guys make my head hurt.

[Alpha Motoring]

Dude, just get a PC! If you mess up your paint doing this like Richard has said, your going to be paying even more in the longrun, plus with the PC you can at least know your doing it safely if you know what you doing too!

[ScottinBend]

Or a nice air driven one for A LOT LESS MONEY ...............

[Some Guy]

Scott, do you use on of those? If you do which one?

[ScottinBend]

I actually have 2. One for the car and one for everything else. The one for car is a Kobalt (Lowes brand) and a cheap Harbor Freight one for all the rest.

You just need to be careful of the speed. I find you don't need much at all.

[Some Guy]

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=42966

Scott, how does this look to you?

Edit: Just noticed that it looks like it has an exposed counter weight... which would be bad.