Argh... I induced some light swirls...

[k_h_d]

A few months ago I polished my mini and the other day I quick detailed when I probably should not have... I put some swirls on the roof! Bummer... How many of you have found you put swirls in your self on accident?

I need to get it out in the sun and find other spots and re-polish them...

[kenchan]

i think majority of the people that wash their cars put swirls on their
own paint. doesn't matter if it's a light wash mitt/towel haze, it's still a
very light swirl.

dont worry about it. we all get them one way or another and this is why
we polish our cars.

[Jeremy1026]

Originally Posted by kenchan

dont worry about it. we all get them one way or another and this is why
we polish our cars.

Very true, I've been slowly adding swirls back into my paint since my last major detail in mid-march it is time just about time to completly re-do it, so all those little swirls will disappear again

[MiniMaybee]

+1^ With due respect to Richard, I still believe there is no such thing as a swirl-free car once it leaves the paint booth!

[agranger]

Just driving the car will introduce micromarring from dust in the air or people brushing up against the car when it's dirty. No matter how carefully I wash them, the black A-pillars swirl-up in just a few weeks.

Just enjoy the car and give it a good polish a couple of times per year.

[k_h_d]

How many polishings would it take to go through the clear coat? 1000's?

[Jeremy1026]

Originally Posted by k_h_d

How many polishings would it take to go through the clear coat? 1000's?

That really depends on many factors including...

• OEM paint depth
• Polish used
• Method of application (Hand, Rotary, Random Orbital)
• Pad used
• Number of passes with each 'coat'

[ofioliti]

Originally Posted by k_h_d

How many polishings would it take to go through the clear coat? 1000's?

Originally Posted by Jeremy1026

That really depends on many factors including...

• OEM paint depth
• Polish used
• Method of application (Hand, Rotary, Random Orbital)
• Pad used
• Number of passes with each 'coat'

I've also wondered about this. Let me rephrase the question: How many polishings would it take go through the clearcoat of a MINI when removing 'typical' swirls.

(I guess another way of thinking about it is to ask how deep typical swirl marks are and how thick the clearcoat is.)

[kenchan]

^^still the answer would be wat jeremy mentioned.

[ofioliti]

Originally Posted by kenchan

^^still the answer would be wat jeremy mentioned.

Hmmm ... really? If we assume some depth for the swirls, and removing them requires polishing (removal/leveling) of the clearcoat to at least the depth of the swirl, then it doesn't matter what polish you use, application method, etc., as long as it is polished smooth, right? If that is correct, then if one knows how deep a typical swirl is and how thick the coat is, then coat thickness divided by swirl depth = number times one can polish before going through the clearcoat.

[MiniMaybee]

Don't know about that, but I do know it takes only three licks to reach the chocolate center of a Tootsie Pop.

[kenchan]

your toung must be about 100grit with moderate force of 15lbs...

[MiniMaybee]

Originally Posted by kenchan

your toung must be about 100grit with moderate force of 15lbs...

[MLPearson79]

But that's assuming that you know you're only polishing to the depth of the typical swirl. And that depth actually can vary depending on the pad and product used.

[kenchan]

there is no one value of depth for swirls. there is no guarantee
that the clearcoat is the same thickness on all the panels on
every car. there is no guarantee that the clearcoat hardness
is the same car to car, temperature to temperature.

there is no guarantee that the amount of force you use is the
same person to person...the amount of abrasives can be controlled
by the product and pad you use, but polishing is not just about the
product; it's also about how much pressure you apply and number of
passes. therefore, there are too many variables to define what
you are asking for.

[rubyred3]

I'm interested in a ballpark number. Is it 10 times, or is it 1000 times (or which one is it closer too), if one properly of course, say every 6 months just to get rid of most typical swirls. I've always been afraid to polish for this fear.

[LynnEl]

Originally Posted by rubyred3

I'm interested in a ballpark number. Is it 10 times, or is it 1000 times (or which one is it closer too), if one properly of course, say every 6 months just to get rid of most typical swirls. I've always been afraid to polish for this fear.

Now why didn't I think of that excuse??

[kenchan]

Originally Posted by LynnEl

Now why didn't I think of that excuse??

fear is just not your style LynneEl. now go put on your thongs and
detail for a healthier living. (in private please)

[LynnEl]

Originally Posted by kenchan

fear is just not your style LynneEl. now go put on your thongs and
detail for a healthier living. (in private please)

The dog chewed up my left thong. Bits of rubber everywhere.... Now I walk lopsided.

[ofioliti]

Originally Posted by rubyred3

I'm interested in a ballpark number. Is it 10 times, or is it 1000 times (or which one is it closer too), if one properly of course, say every 6 months just to get rid of most typical swirls. I've always been afraid to polish for this fear.

Yeah, me too!

C'mon guys, we know what the variables are. If you use more pressure, then polish for less time. If you use a less abrassive polish, then polish for more time, etc. Let's just assume one were to polish to the proper depth just so that you remove the swirl. Yes, there are variable depths of swirls and variable thicknesses of the coat. But then can someone provide a range of the number of times one could polish without going through the coat? Any ideas? (Is it even just closer to 100 or to 1,000 ?)

[kenchan]

ball park number using which method, which product, which pad, and
how much pressure?

also which towels, which wash mitt are you going to use with which
soap, how much soap, how much water, what kind of driving conditions,
etc. etc. for your swirled car?

as you can see, there are many variables. im can say that with a mild
polish like griots Polish3 on my car once or twice a year to remove light
hazing is no issue for probably the next 20yrs or more.

[MiniMaybee]

I think OctaneGuy has a paint thickness gauge and could shed some relative data with us if he would just appear.
Eveybody now: OG, OG, OG

[ofioliti]

OK, this is what I’ve been able to find out.

Most clear coats are 2 to 5 mils or 50.8 to 127 microns thick (1 mil = 25.4 microns).
(I do not know how thick the MINI’s clear coat is. Anyone?)

Since swirl marks are microscopic scratches, they can be expected to be a few microns deep. Let’s say 1 to 10 microns.

If one was capable of polishing to just the depth of the swirl, then in cases of the thinnest clear coat and the deepest swirls, one can hope for about 5 polishings before one eats through the clear coat. With the thickest clear coat and shallowest swirls, one could get more than 100 polishings.

So, if we take and average clear coat of 3.5 mils and average swirl depth of 5 microns, that gives just over 17 polishings. Since one is likely to polish a bit more than necessary to remove the swirl, let’s be conservative and say that

one can polish about a dozen times to remove swirls before one eats through the clear coat.

[OctaneGuy]

Actually I agree! But I assume you mean the paint booth where it's sprayed, and not where the painters have since wetsanded it and polished it--because there can be a lot of other issues besides swirls straight from the booth like airborne contaminants, and fisheyes that will make even a swirl free freshly painted car look bad! Not to mention uneven spraying of metallic flakes, lol, but yes I'm going OT here.

My JB/JB has swirls. I freely admit it. They are very light, but they exist. I'm ok with it. I've accepted long ago that it's always relative to other black finishes that look scoured!

Originally Posted by MiniMaybee

+1^ With due respect to Richard, I still believe there is no such thing as a swirl-free car once it leaves the paint booth!

Using the dual action orbital or with a rotary? The amount of clear coat removal with the orbital isn't measurable. With a rotary, you can easily take off 1 MIL with an aggressive pad and polish. Swirls don't appear in the same place on the car, so it's not like you're thinning the paint in the same are eveytime. And remember, whether you machine polish or hand polish, the result is the same--you're removing paint to improve the finish.

Originally Posted by k_h_d

How many polishings would it take to go through the clear coat? 1000's?

Depends. If the paint has been wetsanded to remove orange peel, it's probably half as thick as it originally was. If it's been polished to remove scratches it will be even thinner. The entire thickness of sealant, primer, basecoat, clearcoat is thinner than a sheet of paper, yet you will see swirls in your vinyl stripes. Ever seen the thickness of that? Yes, you could even polish those swirls out.

Ever tried to take a magnifying loupe to a swirl? You can't see it. It's different from a scratch.

Originally Posted by ofioliti

Hmmm ... really? If we assume some depth for the swirls, and removing them requires polishing (removal/leveling) of the clearcoat to at least the depth of the swirl, then it doesn't matter what polish you use, application method, etc., as long as it is polished smooth, right? If that is correct, then if one knows how deep a typical swirl is and how thick the coat is, then coat thickness divided by swirl depth = number times one can polish before going through the clearcoat.

Using my electronic thickness gauge which measures in MIL, it's not measurable the before and after using an orbital polisher to remove swirls.

Originally Posted by ofioliti

So, if we take and average clear coat of 3.5 mils and average swirl depth of 5 microns, that gives just over 17 polishings. Since one is likely to polish a bit more than necessary to remove the swirl, let’s be conservative and say that

one can polish about a dozen times to remove swirls before one eats through the clear coat.

The average clearcoat is not 3.5 mils. Most MINI factory paints are about 5mils. This is primer, basecoat, clearcoat--though the newer MINI paints don't have primer--just lots of basecoat and clearcoat.

Originally Posted by MiniMaybee

I think OctaneGuy has a paint thickness gauge and could shed some relative data with us if he would just appear.
Eveybody now: OG, OG, OG

Sorry, I didn't see this post! I'm here now.

[rubyred3]

there we go, thats all I was looking for was a reasonable ballpark answer, something that tells me the order of magnitude of the answer to my question at least. I appreciate that there are variables that play into it, and I know how they qualitatively effect things, just curious whether polish should be a once a week thing or a once a year thing. In the end, most of those variables go toward determining what the depth of swirls that you receive are. Obviously, you want to minimize the swirilng that happens, and to polish it out only as deep as is necessary. However, to know how often to you will be able to polish, you have to make reasonable guesses at these quantities, like ofioliti did. Sure, if you get smaller swirls, and you are very careful only to remove whats necessary, then great, your paint has lasted longer than you thought, but I just want to make sure I'm not polishing too often. I'm thinking polish will be a once a year or at most, 6 month thing for our mini.