Lexus leads, Hyundai improves, Infiniti drops in J.D. Power 2009 Initial Quality

[Dr Obnxs]

unique is fine, but bad design is just bad design. The new center stack is just bad design.

Saying the Mini owners are a different breed with higher standards and an excuse why the car shows so poorly in initial quality is just that, an excuse. I know lots of automotive enthusiasts across many car marques, and this explanation just doesn't hold water. Porsche gets high grades. Think thier owners are pussies?

I've been around new Minis for almost as long as they've been in the US. What I do find is that the new MINI has a higher percentage of people who haven't had an "enthusiast" car before and have had thier eyes opened to the possibility of a car as much more than basic transportation.

What I've also seen, read and heard is tons of really weak explanations about how we should really accept bad design or quirky behaviours for the privalage of driving such a unique and pleasureable automotive experience. That's total BS. Some other car maker will figure out how to package what we like in a car without the bad design elements or the high amount of little problems and eat MINIs lunch. That's the nature of this game. We should all hold MINI to a high standard if we want them to stay on top of thier game, not come up with excuses why we should put up with less than idea form or function.

And for what it's worth, I've got tons of unique car experience under my belt, get to drive some of the best that the industry has to offer, and am seeing what is out there, both old and new. When the MINI first came out, there was a huge gap between what MINI offered in a cost for value or cost for performance proposition. Now, that gap is much, much smaller, if it exists at all.

So, let's stop making excuses for what MINI is doing wrong, and help them get with the program to continually improve the breed. Automotive companies are a lot like sharks. They stop moving, they die. Let's get MINI to move in the right direction so we can have them with us for a long time making cars that are fun to drive and a good value to own.

Matt

[bearcat245]

Originally Posted by msport

The MINI is extremely unique and designed to a different standard than most other cars. Yes, it took a bit of time to figure out all the functions in the cockpit but now it is second nature. I actually enjoy having a car that is so different and yet so much fun. Yes the doors shutting are irritating, yes a rattle or two can be a problem but at the end of the day, this is the first car that I have owned that has really made me enjoy my motoring experience....and that says a lot coming from 2 sport sedans. It is superbly engineered, fun and very very unique. I would never go back

I am going on one year and I still smile everytime I hear the trubo kick in and the front end lift up! Had my first CEL last week. Popped the bonnet and immediately saw a pinched hose line going to the intake. (Had installed a cold air intake from DDMWorks 11 months ago) Cut down the hose passed the pinch and reset the CEL using OBDII and away we goooooooooooooo

[aafflyer]

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs

unique is fine, but bad design is just bad design. The new center stack is just bad design.

Saying the Mini owners are a different breed with higher standards and an excuse why the car shows so poorly in initial quality is just that, an excuse. I know lots of automotive enthusiasts across many car marques, and this explanation just doesn't hold water. Porsche gets high grades. Think thier owners are pussies?

I've been around new Minis for almost as long as they've been in the US. What I do find is that the new MINI has a higher percentage of people who haven't had an "enthusiast" car before and have had thier eyes opened to the possibility of a car as much more than basic transportation.

What I've also seen, read and heard is tons of really weak explanations about how we should really accept bad design or quirky behaviours for the privalage of driving such a unique and pleasureable automotive experience. That's total BS. Some other car maker will figure out how to package what we like in a car without the bad design elements or the high amount of little problems and eat MINIs lunch. That's the nature of this game. We should all hold MINI to a high standard if we want them to stay on top of thier game, not come up with excuses why we should put up with less than idea form or function.

And for what it's worth, I've got tons of unique car experience under my belt, get to drive some of the best that the industry has to offer, and am seeing what is out there, both old and new. When the MINI first came out, there was a huge gap between what MINI offered in a cost for value or cost for performance proposition. Now, that gap is much, much smaller, if it exists at all.

So, let's stop making excuses for what MINI is doing wrong, and help them get with the program to continually improve the breed. Automotive companies are a lot like sharks. They stop moving, they die. Let's get MINI to move in the right direction so we can have them with us for a long time making cars that are fun to drive and a good value to own.

Matt

Keep your '02

Me, I'm very happy with the design of the '09 and definitely prefer it to the prior generation.

Also if you read this article http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...quality&st=cse it pretty much validates that a significant cause of Mini's showing in the JD Powers survey is not your typical "quality" defects.

[JIMINNI]

Originally Posted by aafflyer

Keep your '02

Me, I'm very happy with the design of the '09 and definitely prefer it to the prior generation.

Also if you read this article http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...quality&st=cse it pretty much validates that a significant cause of Mini's showing in the JD Powers survey is not your typical "quality" defects.

Just think we could all be driving, "Hyundai Elantra's", , it came in first

[Dr Obnxs]

Originally Posted by aafflyer

Keep your '02

I also own an 08 clubbie. Does that mean I'm qualified to comment now?

Matt

PS, I also get to drive a lot of cars at journalist events. And guess what.... There are lots of cars with "unique" center stacks that get function better. And there are also very nice cars that screw up as well (Jaguar's touch screen comes to mind, as do the cup holder on the 09 MB SLs... Put something in there and you can't see most of the infotainment system!)

Oh, on another side note, I was at a talk by Henrik Fisker (Z8, DB9 and Vantage among other designs). In the new Fisker Karma, he and his design team have decided that there is a lot of crap in cars that doesn't need to be there so they're focusing on including what's really needed, and dropping a lot of stuff that's not. Haven't gotten to drive a Karma yet (there aren't that many) so we'll see if they are onto something later....

[JIMINNI]

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs

unique is fine, but bad design is just bad design. The new center stack is just bad design.

Porsche gets high grades.

Can you elaborate on this? We have both a R53 and a new R56. We have no problem with the center stack? Also about Porsche, they may get high initial grades but long term they get bad grades. Also their resale is very bad. Case in point, my friend bought a 05 Cayenne in 06. Was originally over $100K, he got it for $46K? Still owes $34k, trying to get rid of it now, Carmax offered him $17K He's screwed

[aafflyer]

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs

I also own an 08 clubbie. Does that mean I'm qualified to comment now?

Matt

PS, I also get to drive a lot of cars at journalist events. And guess what.... There are lots of cars with "unique" center stacks that get function better. And there are also very nice cars that screw up as well (Jaguar's touch screen comes to mind, as do the cup holder on the 09 MB SLs... Put something in there and you can't see most of the infotainment system!)

Oh, on another side note, I was at a talk by Henrik Fisker (Z8, DB9 and Vantage among other designs). In the new Fisker Karma, he and his design team have decided that there is a lot of crap in cars that doesn't need to be there so they're focusing on including what's really needed, and dropping a lot of stuff that's not. Haven't gotten to drive a Karma yet (there aren't that many) so we'll see if they are onto something later....

Matt -

Did not mean to be flippant. Of course you are qualified to comment whether you own an R56 or not. All I tried to say, perhaps unsuccessfully, is between the two generations for me I prefer the R56. Everyone else's opinion is just as valid as mine.

This is the first car I've owned where I still smile every day when I get in it, and this being after nine months of ownership is pretty amazing. Are there thing's I'd change, yeah maybe. But overall it's actually a pretty functional design for me.

[msport]

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs

I also own an 08 clubbie. Does that mean I'm qualified to comment now?

Matt

PS, I also get to drive a lot of cars at journalist events. And guess what.... There are lots of cars with "unique" center stacks that get function better. And there are also very nice cars that screw up as well (Jaguar's touch screen comes to mind, as do the cup holder on the 09 MB SLs... Put something in there and you can't see most of the infotainment system!)

Oh, on another side note, I was at a talk by Henrik Fisker (Z8, DB9 and Vantage among other designs). In the new Fisker Karma, he and his design team have decided that there is a lot of crap in cars that doesn't need to be there so they're focusing on including what's really needed, and dropping a lot of stuff that's not. Haven't gotten to drive a Karma yet (there aren't that many) so we'll see if they are onto something later....

I think you are missing the point. Does the functionality and ergonomics of say a 3 series E90 "flow" better than a MC...sure. However, the vast majority of people on here and who buy MINI's are buying them precisely for their quirkiness, their "independence" from general automotive monotony and their undeniable fun factor.
I am curious why you have 2 MINI's when you find them such an ergonomic and design failure? This is not a criticism of you personally, but I wonder what it is that you dislike so much as to say that BMW needs to go back to the drawing board and re-write the script. Isn't the fact that they are so different from the "regular" offerings the whole point? Lets take the Suzuki SX4 as a case in point. Decent car, looks fine and pretty functional. However, why is it that the Suzuki is utterly forgettable while the MINI stands out so much? Just because of bad design or because it is a car that really wants you to learn it and it's personality.
If I wanted to buy mundane A to B transportation I would buy a Civic. Perfectly sensible but again, utterly boring. You mention that companies that stand still risk being surpassed by others and it is just the superior marketing of BMW MINI that has helped sustain the strong sales of the MINI. While the marketing bit has some truth about it, the 07 re-design and continual evolution of the vehicle has made sure that the car still remains very much a viable and attractive product worldwide.
It is not just my idea that this is a "cool" car that makes me enjoy this car so much, it is the unique character and feel of the MINI without the mechanical gremlins that were inherent in previous British offerings. A million plus owners cannot be stupid enough to buy a substandard, badly designed piece of automotive rubbish.

[Dr Obnxs]

but bad design isn't quirky, bad design in just bad... As for elaboration, there's a review of the ergonimics that goes into depth in this thread. Of course this is a subjective thing, and I'm sure that many would and do find it fine. But for sure that's not the majority position.

I also think that the assumption that many buy the car because it's "quirky" isn't nessisarily valid. I bought it cause of the chassis dynamics. You just couldn't get a car with the driving dynamics that the Mini has at anywhere close to the price point of the car when it came out. And there were none that have the combination of driving dynamics and overall utility. There are many like me as well, just like there are many who bought it because it was "unique" or "cute" or whatever.

Here's another example (though not from the center stack). The factory driving lights can be turned on with the headlights off. That is unless you enable daytime driving lights! This is just stupid. So if you have factory driving lights, and want the safety of DLRs, you have to give up the flexibility of turning them on without headlights. It's not quirky, it's dumb.

I guess I just don't buy the argument that the things that are less than ideal, or just bad with the Mini should be worn with a badge of honor because the car is "unique" or "we're a breed apart".

Matt

[JIMINNI]

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs

Here's another example (though not from the center stack). The factory driving lights can be turned on with the headlights off. That is unless you enable daytime driving lights! This is just stupid. So if you have factory driving lights, and want the safety of DLRs, you have to give up the flexibility of turning them on without headlights. It's not quirky, it's dumb.



Matt

Not sure what you are talking about? On my wifes 09 R56, we have it set where we turn on the markers and it turns on part of the driving light. We also can just flip the switch and turn on the whole driving lamp. This is what I do on my R53. I dont like burning the xenon's all the time.

[Dr Obnxs]

I meant to say you can't turn on the front fogs with the DRLs enabled unless you turn the headlights on.... But you can turn them on without the DRLs enabled and the lights off.

Matt

[JIMINNI]

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs

I meant to say you can't turn on the front fogs with the DRLs enabled unless you turn the headlights on.... But you can turn them on without the DRLs enabled and the lights off.

Matt

I dont get it? Matt what are you trying to do? Are you saying if you have the light stalk in the "auto" mode you cant turn the headlights off and only use the fogs? I said driving lights earlier, oops.